Do the bills have the best O-line in the NFL?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

All I have to say to those that still think the Bills are fielding one of the best O lines in the NFL is...wait! Simply wait until Fred Jackson or Ryan Fitzpatrick aren't playing for whatever reason and then watch how the backup QB-RB plays behind that so called "best" O line. Watch what happens when the QB needs more then 3 seconds to find the receiver or there is no hole and the RB needs to break tackles to make that first defender miss and make his yards.

 

It has been my contention throughout this thread that both Fred Jackson and Fitz make that current line look so much better then it actually is. While some agree that both Jackson and Fitz are playing like top players at their positions... they seem convinced it is because the line is allowing them to do so! While I'm still convinced that line has several weak positions that still need to be upgraded. These positions have already been somewhat exposed, and as the season goes on we will see them exposed more and more as the Bills play tougher defenses. They already played poorly against Cincinnati, I think they will get worse before they get better.

To revisit your post, as you know, I never said the Bills had the best O-line, and in fact that argument hasn't earnestly been made in this topic.

 

I've been trying (in spite of some attacks… go figure) what O-lines are better than the Bills O-line.

 

But there are a bunch of skeptics yourself included, who are unconvinced that the Bills have a good O-line.

 

You make the argument (as I have numerous times before) that Fitz has the ability to get the ball out quickly and that this enhances the sacks allowed numbers.

 

You make a similar argument about Fred Jackson's abilities to make the run blocking appear statistically better than it is.

 

I agree to some extent with these points but not to the extent that you do.

 

To not give the offensive line credit is absurd. The Bills were missing their starting right guard for 2 games and didn't miss a beat because their backup swing guard, Chad Rinehart played excellently. They then played without their starting left tackle and there was zero apparent drop-off in the O-lines performance.

 

In other words, not only are the starters playing well but so are the backups… our primary swing guard and swing tackle.

 

To your argument above that Fitz and Jackson are the reason for the good offensive line stats (sacks allowed, rushing yards gained, and yards per carry):

1) how do you explain that last year the Bills allowed 2.125 sacks per game but this year have only allowed 0.8 sacks per game (one wasn't really a sack either)?

2) how do you explain that last year the Bills averaged 107.5 rushing yards per game but this year are averaging 138.2 yards per game?

3) how do you explain that last year the Bills averaged 4.3 yards per carry but this year are averaging 5.0 yards per carry?

Edited October 12, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan

[opfball91]

Our o-line, at the rate it is currently playing which is all we have to really judge it by, is top 5 in the NFL. We have one of the least sacked QBs and one of the best rushers in the league, call it scheme or w/e you want, that's cause our boys up front are tearing it up. Football starts on the offensive and defensive line, everything else can only happen smoothly as a result of what happens on the initial contact. Wood is a freak, so is Levitre, those are two of our best draft picks in years yet they get overlooked because they're offensive lineman. Freddy and Fitz are half the players, probably less, with the Bears o-line.

[3rdand12]

SJ,

I would be remorse in stating that you have made the defining point for the other sides argument.

If we can put a second string(?) guard in and the ROOKIE at the all important LT position and not miss a beat then it is, obviously the QB, Fredmiester and the coaching staff who are making the o line good!!

Now i only say this for the sake of argument and democratic dialogue of course.

go ahead and talk about Hairston's play and Chads abilties is a possible starter anyways in comparison to Urbik.

But i think i have a fair statement in logistics here. wink

Edited October 12, 2011 by 3rdand12

[San Jose Bills Fan]

SJ,

I would be remorse in stating that you have made the defining point for the other sides argument.

If we can put a second string(?) guard in and the ROOKIE at the all important LT position and not miss a beat then it is, obviously the QB, Fredmiester and the coaching staff who are making the o line good!!

Now i only say this for the sake of argument and democratic dialogue of course.

go ahead and talk about Hairston's play and Chads abilties is a possible starter anyways in comparison to Urbik.

But i think i have a fair statement in logistics here. wink

The argument could also be logically correct based on my contention… that the starters AND the reserves have played well.

 

Regardless, I asked Fear the Beard a simple question and I'm waiting for an answer. He said that the Bills O-line is NOT one of the best in the NFL and attributes their success to the play of Fitz and Freddie. To which I asked:

1) how do you explain that last year the Bills allowed 2.125 sacks per game but this year have only allowed 0.8 sacks per game (one wasn't really a sack either)?

2) how do you explain that last year the Bills averaged 107.5 rushing yards per game but this year are averaging 138.2 yards per game?

3) how do you explain that last year the Bills averaged 4.3 yards per carry but this year are averaging 5.0 yards per carry?

 

 

[buffalover4life]

The Washington redskins are in the top 5 teams at rushing the QB, they have 21 sacks on the year. only 2 against the bills!

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The Washington redskins are in the top 5 teams at rushing the QB, they have 21 sacks on the year. only 2 against the bills!

To add to your post, the Bengals, Eagles, Giants were also in the top 3 in sacks when we played them. In fact I believe that the Bengals and Eagles were the NFL sack leaders when we played them.

 

The Eagles, Giants, and Redskins are all still in the top 6 in team sacks, in spite of their numbers being negatively affected by not being able to sack Fitz very much.

 

This week we get to play another quarterback-attacking team in the Jets.

 

While the Jets are "only" 12th in team sacks, Rex Ryan is well known for his complex and aggressive pressure schemes.

 

Yet another stiff challenge for our excellent, young, and improving line.

Edited November 1, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Tcali]

The argument could also be logically correct based on my contention… that the starters AND the reserves have played well.

 

Regardless, I asked Fear the Beard a simple question and I'm waiting for an answer. He said that the Bills O-line is NOT one of the best in the NFL and attributes their success to the play of Fitz and Freddie. To which I asked:

1) how do you explain that last year the Bills allowed 2.125 sacks per game but this year have only allowed 0.8 sacks per game (one wasn't really a sack either)?

2) how do you explain that last year the Bills averaged 107.5 rushing yards per game but this year are averaging 138.2 yards per game?

3) how do you explain that last year the Bills averaged 4.3 yards per carry but this year are averaging 5.0 yards per carry?

The Bills certainly have one of the best run blocking O-lines in the league. The pass protection is improving;but some of that improvement is due to Fitzys game evolving under the direction of Chan.A few teams have gotten a real strong push on us so far this year--which was offset by Chans play calling and Fitzys quick decison making.Slightly above average and improving for the pass protection.Top 5 run blocking.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The Bills certainly have one of the best run blocking O-lines in the league. The pass protection is improving;but some of that improvement is due to Fitzys game evolving under the direction of Chan.A few teams have gotten a real strong push on us so far this year--which was offset by Chans play calling and Fitzys quick decison making.Slightly above average and improving for the pass protection.Top 5 run blocking.

That's true, T.

 

What I pointed out though was that Fitz and Freddie were our starters for most of last season too… and yet we have had enormous improvement in virtually every offensive line metric.

 

Our sacks allowed and yards per carry are way better than last year.

 

There's only one explanation which makes sense to me… and that is that the O-line talent has greatly improved over last year.

 

The guys we have now (Urbik, Rinehart, Pears, Hairston) are a huge upgrade over guys like Geoff Hangartner, Cordaro Howard and Mansfield Wrotto.

 

 

[BillsBytheBay]

The hell with the stats, if you watch the games, freddie has had open Interstate highway lanes to run through. Hell everyone on the O is blocking! Levitre is a bully, Wood is tough and nasty, and even Pears has stepped up when Babin, Hali, and other star rushers have gone to the left side to take match up advantages. The line has been fun to watch. after about game 3 or 4 I started to expect great line play.

[Tcali]

That's true, T.

 

What I pointed out though was that Fitz and Freddie were our starters for most of last season too… and yet we have had enormous improvement in virtually every offensive line metric.

 

Our sacks allowed and yards per carry are way better than last year.

 

There's only one explanation which makes sense to me… and that is that the O-line talent has greatly improved over last year.

 

The guys we have now (Urbik, Rinehart, Pears, Hairston) are a huge upgrade over guys like Geoff Hangartner, Cordaro Howard and Mansfield Wrotto.

 

Makes sense.Huge upgrade.That is the main reason for the improvement.I'd add a dash of Chan's/ Fitzy's evolution + getting past the chaos of last yr(esp the first half)to the recipe.

[OCinBuffalo]

How about the fact that we have had hurt guys go out, and backups come up with HUGE games? How about the fact that not only do we have 7 quality guys, but that they are versatile enough to change positions and not miss a beat?

 

The biggest B word on this board since I have been here has been: drafting O line.

The second biggest B word has been: O line depth.

 

We draft Wood, Levitre and still they B word.

We dump Jason Peters, who has not even come close to earning his contract in Philly, and still they B word.

Bell is clearly a solid starting LT, and still they B word.

Hairston is clearly a solid back-up tackle, and still they B word.

Reinhart has come in and started 3 games now at guard, and done extremely well, and still they B word.

 

Meanwhile, if we hadn't drafted the DBs we have, there's no way we'd be winning, especially last game. How many of the 9 sacks came 4-5 seconds after the snap?

How exactly would we have beaten the Pats without STELLAR play from the defensive backfield?

What role did our O line have in picking off Brady 4 times?

 

And finally, these are largely the same guys we had last year. QB is the clear difference. Coaching is the clear difference.

That means: O lineman simply aren't as important as the "draft O line" crowd says they are. Not if such a wild swing is made possible by switching out the QB and Coach.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

There is so much praise going to Fitzy and Steve and Jackson and they deserve it but Fitzy is the least sacked QB in the League! he has been sacked 1 time in three games with throwing 111 times. The next closest is Jason Campbell with 2 sacks and he has only thrown 82 passes. even Brady has been sacked 3 times. Teams also knew that we were going to be passing in two of the games because of the amount we were trailing by.

Of course we have the best line we are the Bills. Actually surprised at how well they are doing when they looked so bad in preseason, guess Chanix knows how to pick em.

[Bill from NYC]

How about the fact that we have had hurt guys go out, and backups come up with HUGE games? How about the fact that not only do we have 7 quality guys, but that they are versatile enough to change positions and not miss a beat?

 

The biggest B word on this board since I have been here has been: drafting O line.

The second biggest B word has been: O line depth.

 

We draft Wood, Levitre and still they B word.

We dump Jason Peters, who has not even come close to earning his contract in Philly, and still they B word.

Bell is clearly a solid starting LT, and still they B word.

Hairston is clearly a solid back-up tackle, and still they B word.

Reinhart has come in and started 3 games now at guard, and done extremely well, and still they B word.

 

Meanwhile, if we hadn't drafted the DBs we have, there's no way we'd be winning, especially last game. How many of the 9 sacks came 4-5 seconds after the snap?

How exactly would we have beaten the Pats without STELLAR play from the defensive backfield?

What role did our O line have in picking off Brady 4 times?

 

And finally, these are largely the same guys we had last year. QB is the clear difference. Coaching is the clear difference.

That means: O lineman simply aren't as important as the "draft O line" crowd says they are. Not if such a wild swing is made possible by switching out the QB and Coach.

 

OC, almost all of this is true. But excuse me.....when was the last time the Bills made the playoffs?

My point is that they neglected the line for well over a decade and paid the price. Look at the W/L records and get back to me. Your post should be about praising Buddy and Chan for their free agent pickups, not defending abysmal drafts.

 

The thing is, we haven't seen the line play we are seeing this year in 20 or so years. Everybody is happy with me leading the parade. But, there is more to do. Hairston does apppear to have a future. Bell? He IS a starter, but he is almost always hurt. Year after year he is hampered by injuries and we must hope that he isn't a modern day Jonas Jennings (who by the way was a very good blocker when he saw the field).

 

As for the secondary, who were our most productive dbs in recent times? I will go with Clements (21st pick of round 1, and we got an extra #2 in a tradedown), Greer (udfa), Wilson (udfa), Magee (4th round), and perhaps Byrd (2nd round) and even Florence (ufa).

Notice the missing names.....Whitner (#8) and McKelvin (#11). Do you see my point? I am not even going to go there wrt running backs.

 

Badolbilz told me a quite a few years back that coaching was growing, and would grow in importance. How on the money was he? Gailey has brought something beautiful to the Bills community. What he has accomplished was way against the odds, even to eternal optimists. When it comes to players, QBs, pass rushers and blockers will always be the foundation of good football teams, especially those who play in the cold. Sorry, this DOES matter. Solid DTs would rank just behind imo.

 

This team is a few good players away from serious contention. I hope they start right back at Alabama in their quest to find these missing pieces.

Meanwhile, whether we agree in principle or not isn't an issue. Let's enjoy first place, and thanks for good dialogue!

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SoulMan]

Urgent message to Bills FO, One Bills Drive. PLEASE keep this line intact...PLEASE. We can debate best, top 3, top 5 and have fun wit that. It is the best performing line we have had in 15+ years.

[Turbosrrgood]

There is so much praise going to Fitzy and Steve and Jackson and they deserve it but Fitzy is the least sacked QB in the League! he has been sacked 1 time in three games with throwing 111 times. The next closest is Jason Campbell with 2 sacks and he has only thrown 82 passes. even Brady has been sacked 3 times. Teams also knew that we were going to be passing in two of the games because of the amount we were trailing by.

 

 

The Bills O-line has been a huge surprise, especially considering the injuries we suffered on it. I personally had thought that if we suffered injuries to any of our starters we were screwed...I was wrong. I think it is a little much to be saying they are the best in the league though, a lot of the credit for the success of this offense has to go to terrific coaching and game planning.

 

The Bills rarely throw deep, and Fitzpatrick rarely holds onto the ball for more than 2 or 3 seconds (A tremendous break from Johnson, Bledsoe, Losman, Edwards, ect...). When a QB gets rid of the ball that quickly it is tough to get pressure on him (Credit to that Harvard brain). In the run game, Jackson and Gailey are a match made in heaven. Jackson's style is absolutely perfect for the blocking scheme and running plays Gailey likes to call. He is also well balanced, quick enough, a great receiver, tough to tackle, with great vision. Combine that with the fact that opposing defenses actually have to defend the pass now and you have a recipe for success. As good as our O-line has looked most of the time, I would say that this is just an offense in sync, as opposed to being the best at any position.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Turbosrrgood

[OCinBuffalo]

OC, almost all of this is true. But excuse me.....when was the last time the Bills made the playoffs?

My point is that they neglected the line for well over a decade and paid the price. Look at the W/L records and get back to me. Your post should be about praising Buddy and Chan for their free agent pickups, not defending abysmal drafts.

 

The thing is, we haven't seen the line play we are seeing this year in 20 or so years. Everybody is happy with me leading the parade. But, there is more to do. Hairston does apppear to have a future. Bell? He IS a starter, but he is almost always hurt. Year after year he is hampered by injuries and we must hope that he isn't a modern day Jonas Jennings (who by the way was a very good blocker when he saw the field).

 

As for the secondary, who were our most productive dbs in recent times? I will go with Clements (21st pick of round 1, and we got an extra #2 in a tradedown), Greer (udfa), Wilson (udfa), Magee (4th round), and perhaps Byrd (2nd round) and even Florence (ufa).

Notice the missing names.....Whitner (#8) and McKelvin (#11). Do you see my point? I am not even going to go there wrt running backs.

 

Badolbilz told me a quite a few years back that coaching was growing, and would grow in importance. How on the money was he? Gailey has brought something beautiful to the Bills community. What he has accomplished was way against the odds, even to eternal optimists. When it comes to players, QBs, pass rushers and blockers will always be the foundation of good football teams, especially those who play in the cold. Sorry, this DOES matter. Solid DTs would rank just behind imo.

 

This team is a few good players away from serious contention. I hope they start right back at Alabama in their quest to find these missing pieces.

Meanwhile, whether we agree in principle or not isn't an issue. Let's enjoy first place, and thanks for good dialogue!

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know that I only posted that, half-cocked btw, for you Bill, right? I think we sorta agree, IIRC.

 

I have never been against drafting O line. I have always been for drafting BPA. I do not subscribe to reaching for any player, for any reason. IF there is an O lineman who grades = or even a little less than = to a DB, then sure, I have no problem with drafting the O lineman, or D lineman, because having a SLIGHT bias towards the lines can't be a bad thing.

 

That's not where I have a problem. When I hear that we shouldn't draft a top 15 overall, #1 CB player in McKelvin, and instead should take the 3rd best tackle, who projects to RT and 10 spots lower than our pick, for the sole reason that he is an O lineman? That is retarded, and always will be. And, while we are on the topic of McKelvin....whose pick of Brady was the turning point in the game....will probably be one of the major reasons we make the playoffs this year. The fact is that O lineman are never going to be exposed and scrutinized by the average fan as much as CB.

 

You are not the average fan. You are the guy who can break down every play and tell me exactly what every O lineman did, cause you were watching them the whole game. I simply can't do that.

 

Also, I think trading down is stupid, especially in the first round, unless you rape the other team for its picks, and those picks better be in the top 15. Do you see the Patriots D this year? Simple: Not enough talent. Wanna know how that happened? Too many years of "smart drafting" by Belechik. They have a whole lot of 2nd/3rd round talent, and 0 first round talent. They could have had Clay Matthews, but they "smartly" traded down.

 

The bottom line is: since I have been here, I have been called every name in the book for refusing to see the so-called "wisdom". As per normal, I am just as patient as I am right!

 

And yeah: I couldn't care less about college football, so, if you say Alabama/SEC is the Sam's Club for getting new Bills like Dareus, then let's back up the truck and load it up!

 

Finally, let me ask you this: what level of confidence do you have in the current brain trust regarding the draft, as opposed to what we have had the last 20 years?

[zow2]

Fitz and Fred were very productive behind arguably the "worst" O-lines the season and a half before this year. When Trent and Lynch were back there they were getting like 2.2 yds per play or something awful. I remember we had a slew of games where the Bills total net yards were in the 150-200 yd range for the entire game!

Let's just agree that the O-line is much better now and the QB/RB combo are excellent as well.

[BringBackFlutie]

I read on the internet we suck so.....

 

Including these/BB boards.

[Fan in San Diego]

Did you watch Tamba Hali last night abusing San Diego's LT? I think McNeil got like 8 penalties trying to deal with Hali. We did much better against him.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Fan in San Diego

[Bill from NYC]

Finally, let me ask you this: what level of confidence do you have in the current brain trust regarding the draft, as opposed to what we have had the last 20 years?

 

There is no comparison. TD had a great draft the first time around and then seemed to fizzle. Levy/Jauron were totally incompetent. The team is just starting to recover from the 2006 disaster.

 

I like the direction that Nix went other than Spiller. Nix is about getting the team to be bigger and stronger.

The Aaron Williams pick raised an eyebrow too in all honesty. OC, Nix stated that he had multiple trade down offers in every round. Sometimes, early picks like this in round 2 can fetch an additional #1 in the following season, and anoter pick. The good news is that Williams, from what little we have seen of him, looks like he can be a player.

And do try to catch the Alabama game this weekend if you get a chance. There are pro linebackers that could not start for the Crimson Tide.