DrDawkinstein Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I guess my point is, why can't we do a little of both, build through the draft and sprinkle in a FA or two a year..My gosh if we added a TE, RT and ILB through FA THIS year we might get to 10 wins...and they would be on the team for 4 or so years, thats my point..why wait 4 years, when you can probably reach the playoffs next year.. You answer your own question. The FO is looking to build a solid foundation through multiple drafts. If you go out and plug a bunch of holes in FA, you get what we got from Donahoe and Levy/Brandon. You get 7 to 9 wins. No playoffs. And bad draft position. And you spin those wheels every year. To build a foundation through the draft, you have to hang tight and suck BAD for a couple of years in order to get those high picks. When Butler, Smith and Nix went to San Diego, the Chargers had the #1 overall pick. They then had the #5 overall in 2002, and again had the #1 OVERALL in 2004. This is why properly re-building through the draft takes a lot of patience. You are correct that it takes about 3-4 years to develop that base. But once you have the base, then you can go and sign the last pieces from FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) Name a high priced FA in the last 10 years that elevated his team to SB status. i really do not think one single FA player made a particular team a super bowl contender. it is obviously a process, but the steelers picking up farrior, saints picking up sharper, indy grabbing vinateri were all vital contributors to their respective teams.keep in mind, those teams did not have the horrible drafts that the bills have had, they had their foundation, thru the draft. i agree it takes patience, but you can win right away, it no longer takes 5 years. Edited July 27, 2011 by dwight in philly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 i really do not think one single FA player made a particular team a super bowl contender. it is obviously a process, but the steelers picking up farrior, saints picking up sharper, indy grabbing vinateri were all vital contributors to their respective teams. Ill give you one Drew Brees. If only he was available... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never NEVER Give-up Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 You cannot JUST rely upon building through the draft when you have years like 2007 - Poz's draft year. Now that he's gone, we have none, zero, nada players from that draft!!! Four short years ago and not one player drafted that year is on the roster. Granted it was not on Nix's watch, but it points out the fallacy in his thinking. One or two Free Agency pieces per year - at least one of them a starter, should be their target as long as the team dwells in the lower half of the league, maybe the lower 75%. Heck, even Buddy says they chart all the FA's and if there is a guy out there that will improve the team, they will go after him. So my question is if you were, say . . . 4-12 last year, & had only 1 pro-bowler, dontcha think there might be 1 or 2 guys out there who can help you???? It is an insult to our intelligence to say no. Now it's only Wed, and Fri 6pm is when players can actually sign; and Thurs - all teams will be making some roster adjustments . . . so Buddy may still get a player or two, let's hope he does or this will be another 4-12 to 6-10 year. Since trades are becoming more scarce, the draft and Free Agency are really the only ways you can build a team. I agree the draft should be your foundation and FA's should be the missing pieces that can get you over the top. But when your draft choices either fail to make your team or they choose not to sign a 2nd contract after 4-5 years, you REALLY need to utilize Free Agency to avoid falling behind your competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 You cannot JUST rely upon building through the draft when you have years like 2007 - Poz's draft year. Now that he's gone, we have none, zero, nada players from that draft!!! Four short years ago and not one player drafted that year is on the roster. Granted it was not on Nix's watch, but it points out the fallacy in his thinking. One or two Free Agency pieces per year - at least one of them a starter, should be their target as long as the team dwells in the lower half of the league, maybe the lower 75%. Heck, even Buddy says they chart all the FA's and if there is a guy out there that will improve the team, they will go after him. So my question is if you were, say . . . 4-12 last year, & had only 1 pro-bowler, dontcha think there might be 1 or 2 guys out there who can help you???? It is an insult to our intelligence to say no. Now it's only Wed, and Fri 6pm is when players can actually sign; and Thurs - all teams will be making some roster adjustments . . . so Buddy may still get a player or two, let's hope he does or this will be another 4-12 to 6-10 year. Since trades are becoming more scarce, the draft and Free Agency are really the only ways you can build a team. I agree the draft should be your foundation and FA's should be the missing pieces that can get you over the top. But when your draft choices either fail to make your team or they choose not to sign a 2nd contract after 4-5 years, you REALLY need to utilize Free Agency to avoid falling behind your competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Has anyone mentioned drafting a QB to build your team around? To the OP's point: if you're drafting but not building, then what exactly is it you're doing? It's like having a race car and no driver. You can change the paint job, the oil, and the tires all you want. You're never going to win races without the driver. On the other hand, if you happen to think Fitzgibbons and Thugpen are franchise QBs, then you're good to go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never NEVER Give-up Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Free Agents that helped teams to the SuperBowl: Charles Haley (SF & Dallas), ditto fo Neon Deion. Saints picked-up Brees, Jabari Greer, Anthony Hargrove & Darren Sharper. Was Steve Young a FA? Chas Woodson & Ryan Pickett were key players last year for the Pack. Plaxico Buress for G-men. Jonathan Scoot by Steelers last year (ok - I had to slide that in there). I am sure there are others - it goes to show that they can be and should be a means by which the Bills add a player or two each year to help them improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habes1280 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I have nothing against Nix, nor do I have anything against his philosophies-- they are a breath of fresh air after the turnstyle Donahoe years. What troubles me is how unwilling he seems to be to adapt or adjust to the unforeseen and the unexpected. I think this is what bothers a lot of fans-- it isn't impatience, but a natural response to a plan that seems to be sliding off course, with no effort whatsoever from the leadership to course correct. To say we are going to build a solid nexus through the draft, and then draft a class of only modest contributors, is disappointing. To take a perennial 7-9 team and drop them to 4-12 with no significant personnel losses is also disappointing. But to confidently boast about all of the things you're NOT going to do, and all the strategies you're NOT going to change in light of these disappointments is inexcusable. No one is expecting the front office to open their proverbial wallets too widely, or overextend on inflated contracts for over-valued free agents. What it seems that many fans want is just a bit of self-reflection, and an effort to offset miscalculations with slightly different approaches. That seems reasonable and reactive. No one expected C.J. Spiller or Torrell Troup or Alex Carrington to play so small a role last season. And while they can (and likely will) improve, it isn't unreasonable to admit that the team is still missing some important pieces-- despite your efforts-- and so the front office is going to continue its rebuilding through alternative means. No one expected for Paul Posluzny to leave for a lucrative contract on the first day of free agency, but now that he has, it isn't weak-minded to admit that, with the injuries to Danny Batten, and the crop of rookie backers you drafted a few months ago but haven't yet met, you don't know what you have behind him. Bringing in a veteran ILB isn't going to impede the development of Chris White or Kelvin Sheppard, just as bringing in a veteran DT or DE isn't going to hamper Torrell Troup or Marcel Dareus, respectively; it's just going to allow them to develop at their own pace, and keep the team competitive in the event that they're not ready for a significant role in 2011. It just confirms for the fans that the front office is doing the best that they can to make the Bills a better team. Leaning back in one's chair and telling the fans "I tole ya befoe. We gonna build through the draft. And we gonna keep our own guys" just doesn't hold water when your last draft has yet to show signs of real life (though it still might) and you just lost your highest priority free agent on the first day of free agency (even if he was wildly overpaid). It doesn't leave the perception that they're doing their best; it looks like they think they are a step ahead in a game they are losing. There's a lot of room for me to be wrong, here, and I hope that I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreReed83 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 The problem with building through the draft is that you have to draft good players. Which we haven't done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 The problem with building through the draft is that you have to draft good players. Which we haven't done. LOL, great statement when we've only seen 1 draft class which happened to produce a few productive players, even as rookies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scraps Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 The problem building through FA : See Redskins, Washington Building through the draft: See Packers, Green Bay, Steelers, Pittsburgh. Chargers, San Diego If the Bills had always taken this approach, we never would have had Ted Washington, Chris Spielman, Bryce Paup or Takeo Spikes, just to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 If the Bills had always taken this approach, we never would have had Ted Washington, Chris Spielman, Bryce Paup or Takeo Spikes, just to name a few. How many playoff games did we win with any of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scraps Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 How many playoff games did we win with any of them? More than we've even played in since they left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 More than we've even played in since they left. Touche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 (edited) More than we've even played in since they left. The answer is 1, in 1995, when we were still riding on the players we DRAFTED such as Kelly, Smith, and Thomas. Build through the draft, then once you have a winning base, you can sign guys like those to make an impact. Otherwise, with no base supporting them, FA's just become bust signings. But go sign FAs instead of drafting well. It worked for Donahoe. Oh wait... Edited July 27, 2011 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBILLSFAN Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 The Draft needs to be the central part of rebuilding and sustaining excellence. Take a look at Bills' drafts the past 10 years and you can see why this team hasn't made playoffs in that span and longer -- BAD DRAFTS !!. Sure, I'd love Clabo or Colon or Burnett (now that Poz is gone) -- but the owners are giving out silly money -- Holmes 5/$50 ?? -- Nix is better off sitting back and waiting for the other 31 chucleheads to spend themselves into a stuper and OVER the CAP and pick apart the scraps -- meanwhile, this team isn't going anywhere in 2011, so be patient with last year's and this year's draft class -- judget his team in December not July In meantime, I like the strategy -- and, BTW, there's no way Poz is worth 6/$42M -- now way -- he is not a playmaker -- he is a great guy with a cool name from a awesome school --- works hard --- plays hard -- but doesn't change the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habes1280 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 The problem with building through the draft is that you have to draft good players. Which we haven't done. You might be right. It might also be that we've thrown them into the fire before they were ready (because we were dead-set against bringing in veteran talent from other franchises). "If the Bills had always taken this approach, we never would have had Ted Washington, Chris Spielman, Bryce Paup or Takeo Spikes, just to name a few." Again, I completely agree. Picking up a quality free agent or two to fill holes doesn't mean you aren't building through the draft-- grabbing an ILB, for example, doesn't mean that we don't still have Kelvin Sheppard and Chris White, it just means we'll have a better chance at production from that position, even if Kelvin Sheppard and Chris White aren't ready to produce. We have no production and no depth at TE right now-- it's a position we couldn't address in the draft. So how are we to believe that we're better off without grabbing a more bona fide prospect than an undrafted rookie free agent with an injury history? How would acquiring a free agent TE hamper the development of the TE's we currently have on the roster? It just ensures that we'll be able to field a more competitive team while our young guys work their way through their learning curves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scraps Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 The answer is 1, in 1995, when we were still riding on the players we DRAFTED such as Kelly, Smith, and Thomas. Build through the draft, then once you have a winning base, you can sign guys like those to make an impact. Otherwise, with no base supporting them, FA's just become bust signings. But go sign FAs instead of drafting well. It worked for Donahoe. Oh wait... Oh I'd say Ted Washington was a pretty big part of the base. The Bills have a history of drafting poorly and then not keeping what the few players who actually show good talent. As long as that continues, this team will struggle to maintain mediocrity. I don't see how such a talent poor team so far under the cap can so undervalue a means of obtaining talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 You answer your own question. The FO is looking to build a solid foundation through multiple drafts. If you go out and plug a bunch of holes in FA, you get what we got from Donahoe and Levy/Brandon. You get 7 to 9 wins. No playoffs. And bad draft position. And you spin those wheels every year. To build a foundation through the draft, you have to hang tight and suck BAD for a couple of years in order to get those high picks. When Butler, Smith and Nix went to San Diego, the Chargers had the #1 overall pick. They then had the #5 overall in 2002, and again had the #1 OVERALL in 2004. This is why properly re-building through the draft takes a lot of patience. You are correct that it takes about 3-4 years to develop that base. But once you have the base, then you can go and sign the last pieces from FA. Ignoring FA is completely asinine. No one is saying go out and sign Nnamdi Asomugha or spend a ton of cash on 30+ year old vets. But there were a lot of young guys that are talented that the Bills refuse to look at. How about filling a couple of holes via FA which then opens up your draft the following year. They obviously had a bunch of money earmarked for Poz. Why not go out and spend that on Barrett Ruud? You need to add pieces whenever they can. This BS of simply waiting to select 7 new players each season and that's the only way to improve is complete bull ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 PS Surprised you name is foreplay since it seems you want instant results LMAO!!! But they are doing both. Nobody we would sign in FA would have the Impact of Dareus. A decent RT like Clabo would be huge. Thigpen, although not a glory signing, fills a need. Good teams develop talent and keep it. So you're saying that Thigpen is a glory hole? I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in free agency… when it officially opens on Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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