O-Line ranks 12th

[1B4IDie]

Moving Bell to RT is silly.

Anyone proposing that has proven that they have no idea what they're talking about.

Tackles are not interchangeable. Bell is not a RT.

 

Only in Buffalo does a LT play well all season, only gives up a few sacks on the season, (most were when aBrohmination was in for that horrible performance) and he sucks.

 

You know there is a range between sucks and all-star, right?

 

When you talk about which revision of the line. Remeber the key guys on the line Wood, Levitre, and Bell were there and didn't move around.

Its LG and RT where we had a revolving door.

If you lock down 1 of those positions in 2011 you then have 4/5 solid starters or better. Which is better than most teams.

Thats the point of this article, when comparing the Bills O-Line to other O-Lines in the NFL today they are not the worst or even one of the worst.

If you compare them to the ProBowl offensive line then yeah, they're not as good as a pro bowl roster.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Why So Serious?

[Rockinon]

Welcome to 2011.

Our offensive line has two Top 50 picks on it.

A young, athletic LT that is a solid starter and if he can develop further can be better than just "solid."

 

The RT and LG positions have seen a lot of turn over but Hariston looks to be a good fit to eventually plug into RT, but we'll see.

 

So "our offensive line is horrible" was true in 2008.

 

However things change and I think ranking the Bills O-Line in the 12-16 range in the league in 2011 seems about right.

 

If Hariston pans out and Bell continues to improve Top 10 O-line in the league is a possibility.

 

Yes Fitz is better than the horrible QBs we have had and deserves credit for having no conscience and just throwing the ball no matter what happens in his face. The O-Line isn't as bad as it used to be.

At least it makes for a more interesting game.

 

Yea well, you guys gush all you want about how good the O line is and how much they improved....

 

Never-mind the fact that when the pocket broke down Fitz had a yard per rush as good as Mick Vick at 6.7 YPR . That he was running for his life in some games, he was still able to make something positive out of nothing many times.

 

That he would find the open receiver and he had the ball out in about 3 seconds most plays. That deep ball to Stevie Johnson only took 3.5 seconds before it left Fitz's hands.

 

Never-mind the fact that Fred Jackson makes 2 tacklers miss before he hits the line.

 

 

 

The reason why that line didn't give up as many sacks or pressures is because the QB play was remarkable from Ryan Fitzpatrick, not because the line suddenly blossomed into all pro's. When he didn't have an open receiver he was able to leave the pocket and make yards with his legs. Buffalo plays a tougher schedule this year and we will see if Fitz can survive the season with the current line.

Some really good points. We would likely be having an entirely different conversation on this subject if Trent Edwards remained the starter for the entire season.

[ColdBlueNorth]

Some fodder for the "OL is the only way to build a team" crowd. Yesterday's ProFootballFocus article on Surrendering Pressure:

 

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/06/surrendering-pressure/

 

In short, one of the teams that made the Superbowl was the worst team in the entire league in giving up pressure on the QB. Green Bay ranked 12th. Neither was in the top-10.

 

And the bottom 3 for offensive line, PIT, CHI, and TB, all made the playoffs.

 

Compare this to how the QB performs under pressure:

 

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/16/pressure-reveals/

 

In short, these findings seem to indicate the really good QBs mask the weakness of the offensive line, and that even with poor pass protection, they can still win. Given that FItzpatrick was #16 under pressure, and Edwards is terrible (according to my own biased assessment), a lot of what we felt last year could probably be attributed to that upgrade.

 

To me, it's more important to have a well balanced football team in today's NFL than overly dominant lines. I think these findings are in line with that theory. Unfortunately, that means it's a lot more complicated than "build great lines and win".

 

 

 

**EDIT: Mods, I was typing this up while the other thread was made about this series of articles. Can you merge it in to this one?

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/130848-o-line-ranks-12th/

 

Thanks

 

I am in the camp that there is a lot of upside with our line - if they can stay healthy, but you have to consider other things when using those teams above as a barometer.

 

Green Bay has arguably one of the quickest arms behind their line in Aaron Rogers. I get to see him a lot living in the Midwest and he gets the ball out fast - super fast so they can have a sub-par o-line and little running game and be successful.

 

The Steelers have Big Ben, and regardless of your feelings about him, he can have 3 guys hanging off of him and would be dragging them to his right while still throwing a catchable ball across his body to his left.

 

Tampa Bay had a ridiculous breakout rookie running back Blount who really kept defenses guessing.

 

Chicago squeaked into the post season in a weak division, but we know that Cutler is pretty good at escaping pressure and has a rocket of an arm.

 

I agree to a point that O-Lines do not have to be able to hold a block for 4-5 seconds, but unless you have the types of QB's above you need a good running game. I hope our improvements on the O-line are in that area so we can get some balance back there for Fitz. It will also be interesting to see how all of our rookie receivers develop this year. To have that quick throwing game you have to have that timing down with your receiving crew - had to be hard last year for Fitz with all those new faces.

[tennesseeboy]

Watch games. Fitz runs for his life and is sacked at key moments. Spiller got nowhere; they couldn't run consistently.

Levitre is good. We have no idea what we have with Wood. Bell is small and weak but he is agile so there is hope for him, but he is not one to play RT. He isn't a bruiser. RT? RG? You tell me. How do those positions shape up to you?

Sign a good free agent RT, pay Kevin Boss more than he is worth (remember we don't have a TE who can really block), and the line might be decent. If Bell doesn't finally develop, we can address LT next season.

 

Oh, and as for the comments about "balance," I agree that this is extremely important. The thing is, we don't have a glut of talent to make up for a poor OL (assuming this can be done). Look at our last 5 first round picks before Dareus. This will tell you all you need to know about a 4-12 record.

As usual Bill's analysis is the best I've seen of our offensive line and I agree 100% based on what I've seen. I see the 12 ranking as very surprising.

[Coach Tuesday]

I wouldn't go so far as to call myself part of the "build the OL at all costs" contingent, though I would like to see a strong emphasis on the lines in the future. However, I will say this:

 

Suppose Team A's OL allows one pressure all year, and that one pressure turns into a sack. Team B's OL allows pressure every single time the QB drops back to throw, and 25% of the time that pressure leads to a sack. If the methodology in the article is used to rank OL play, Team A's line would look four times worse than Team B's line. With Team A, 100% of pressures turn into sacks; whereas only 25% of pressures turn into sacks for Team B's line. It's interesting to know which teams were best at keeping pressure from turning into sacks, but that datum is absolutely useless for evaluating OL play. Useless!

 

Put another way, chances are Team B will face a lot more pressure to begin with, because the rest of the league knows how crappy it is. It's another reason these stats don't tell us much.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Coach Tuesday

[PDaDdy]

Moving Bell to RT is silly.

Anyone proposing that has proven that they have no idea what they're talking about.

Tackles are not interchangeable. Bell is not a RT.

 

Apparently he is not a LT either. LOL....I had to take the shot. When our line can open up a hole in the run game I'll say we have the right guys in the right spot.

[1B4IDie]

Apparently he is not a LT either. LOL....I had to take the shot. When our line can open up a hole in the run game I'll say we have the right guys in the right spot.

I appreciate that opinion, much more than "move him to RT "

 

He is serviceable LT. Evidenced by the fact that he was a serviceable LT all last season.

Will he be a stud LT, not likely, can he get better, probably.

If he doesn't get better in 2011 and there is potential stud LT on the board in the first round and the stud QBs are off the board in the 1st round of the 2012 does it make send to pull the trigger on the LT? Yes! Yes! Yes!

Edited June 8, 2011 by Why So Serious?

[BillsVet]

The Green Bay Packers drafted an OT with their first pick in the draft this year, why? Because Aaron Rodgers was concussed and knocked out for one game last year, what happens if he misses more then that one game with a severe concussion? The Packers don't even make the playoffs much less the super bowl, and the FO is smart enough to recognize that and drafted to protect their star player!

 

Cue the person who says you can't build it all in 2 years.

 

Seriously, there isn't one legitimate starting NFL OT on the roster right now. There isn't a proven TE on the roster right now. And while the board is famous for talking about player potential, that's nothing you can bank on. An OL that allows its QB to get injured and cannot open up holes for Fred and their water bug RB needs a lot of personnel help.

[paintmyhouse]

Bills OL is not that bad, they have a horrible QB and predictable coach calling the plays and they give up on the run and just do not do nearly enough to get the ball in space to the elusive runners with the ball. When Fred Jackson went to more than 15 yards he always had to break 6 tackles to do that. Seemed like every other team had designed plays where the guy in space had 15 yards before he was touched. Doesn't help with turnover machine and inaccurate QB who gets hos guys killed and eliminates the space that could have been had by making the receiver have to not catch the ball in stride when the chance was there. Watch again, Fitz is dreadful on many of those plays. Gets his guys killed.

[thewildrabbit]

Bills OL is not that bad, they have a horrible QB and predictable coach calling the plays and they give up on the run and just do not do nearly enough to get the ball in space to the elusive runners with the ball. When Fred Jackson went to more than 15 yards he always had to break 6 tackles to do that. Seemed like every other team had designed plays where the guy in space had 15 yards before he was touched. Doesn't help with turnover machine and inaccurate QB who gets hos guys killed and eliminates the space that could have been had by making the receiver have to not catch the ball in stride when the chance was there. Watch again, Fitz is dreadful on many of those plays. Gets his guys killed.

 

""Bills OL is not that bad""---"" they have a horrible QB""---""Watch again, Fitz is dreadful on many of those plays. Gets his guys killed.""

 

 

I certainly hope that Fitz gets his guys killed again this year

 

Last year in 13 games as the backup QB he threw for 3000 yards and 23 TD's. Going into this year as the starter and getting all the reps if he plays 16 games behind that "not that bad" O line he could throw for 4000 yards and 30+ TD's

 

Just think, now that Roscoe Parrish and Lee Evans are back off the IR... Fitz can get them both killed for 82 receptions, 1073 yards, 10TD's, just like he did with Stevie Johnson

 

 

Man, Fitz sucks... I hope he sucks just as bad this year as he did last year

[PDaDdy]

Bills OL is not that bad, they have a horrible QB and predictable coach calling the plays and they give up on the run and just do not do nearly enough to get the ball in space to the elusive runners with the ball. When Fred Jackson went to more than 15 yards he always had to break 6 tackles to do that. Seemed like every other team had designed plays where the guy in space had 15 yards before he was touched. Doesn't help with turnover machine and inaccurate QB who gets hos guys killed and eliminates the space that could have been had by making the receiver have to not catch the ball in stride when the chance was there. Watch again, Fitz is dreadful on many of those plays. Gets his guys killed.

 

Here we go with the offensive line is awesome probowlers down the row. It's that crappy QB that can't get them to open holes in the run game. News flash Fitz coming in part way into the season last year was the best QB since Jim Kelly with mention of 1 year for Bledsoe and some Flutie Magic. The guy put points on the board and he had that line looking a HELL of a lot better than Trent Deadwards ever did.

[Alphadawg7]

I really don't get how how these stats are a reflection of line play. The authors analysis is flawed. (sacks allowed)/(sacks+qb knock downs+ hurries) only indicates how well your qb gets rid of the ball in the face of pressure. A better analysis for how well the oline protected the qb would be (sacks allowed+knock downs+ hurries)/total pass plays. That would tell us how often a defender got to the QB as a percentage of pass plays. Besides, everyone knows that run blocking was the big weakness for our o-line last year. So saying our pass pro was ok is just sticking your head in the sand.

Last year we were 10th in rushing yards per attempt. So why do people keep saying our o line was terrible in the run game? Our rush totals were lower because of how often we passed, even in games we effectively ran the ball, not because we couldn't run. FJ was (if I am not mistaken) 4th or 5th in the NFL in rushing over the second half of the season once he was full time starter.

[ganesh]

""Bills OL is not that bad""---"" they have a horrible QB""---""Watch again, Fitz is dreadful on many of those plays. Gets his guys killed.""

 

 

I certainly hope that Fitz gets his guys killed again this year

 

Last year in 13 games as the backup QB he threw for 3000 yards and 23 TD's. Going into this year as the starter and getting all the reps if he plays 16 games behind that "not that bad" O line he could throw for 4000 yards and 30+ TD's

 

Just think, now that Roscoe Parrish and Lee Evans are back off the IR... Fitz can get them both killed for 82 receptions, 1073 yards, 10TD's, just like he did with Stevie Johnson

 

 

Man, Fitz sucks... I hope he sucks just as bad this year as he did last year

 

You have to agree that Fitz performance tailed off in the final 4 games and he was very average to downright awful in those games. I still don't have full confidence that he can win consistently for us.

[thewildrabbit]

You have to agree that Fitz performance tailed off in the final 4 games and he was very average to downright awful in those games. I still don't have full confidence that he can win consistently for us.

well, for one thing both starting receivers were on IR at that point, Nelson the TE was having migraines and missed several games. Lynch was traded away and all the had was Freddy at RB.I gotta think at that point in the season his receiver options were very limited, not to mention the pounding he was taking behind that "not that bad" O line was starting to take its toll. He did miss a game at the end of the season due to an injury, and we all got to watch Brian Brohm fall hard on his face behind that same " not that bad" O line, with that same stellar receiving corps .

 

The man has yet to play a full season and he has missed games every year because of injuries the 3 years he has been in Buffalo....kinda the reason as to why I keep complaining that Nix didn't upgrade the line in the draft!!

 

So, when he gets knocked out for a game or season, will you have full confidence his back up can even make a first down?

[ganesh]

well, for one thing both starting receivers were on IR at that point, Nelson the TE was having migraines and missed several games. Lynch was traded away and all the had was Freddy at RB.I gotta think at that point in the season his receiver options were very limited, not to mention the pounding he was taking behind that "not that bad" O line was starting to take its toll. He did miss a game at the end of the season due to an injury, and we all got to watch Brian Brohm fall hard on his face behind that same " not that bad" O line, with that same stellar receiving corps .

 

The man has yet to play a full season and he has missed games every year because of injuries the 3 years he has been in Buffalo....kinda the reason as to why I keep complaining that Nix didn't upgrade the line in the draft!!

 

So, when he gets knocked out for a game or season, will you have full confidence his back up can even make a first down?

 

The line is what it is. Most of the teams have average lines. The steelers had a line that was worse than ours and yet made a deep run.

 

Your arguments regarding Fitz are weak.

Nelson was never a contributor when Fitz was having his good days...so I am not sure he counts...The same goes for Parrish. Parrish was gone more than half the season. Lee Evans was a shadow of himself...so losing him at the end of the season was really a minor issue. Marshawn was pretty much invisible last season, so I am not sure how he contributed to Fitz success and how him not being there caused Fitz to fail.

 

Actually Jones and Nelson stepped up and had good games at the end of the season. Fitz threw horrible INTs and fumbled the ball. The focus was just not there @ the end of the season.

[Chandler#81]

I really don't get how how these stats are a reflection of line play. The authors analysis is flawed. (sacks allowed)/(sacks+qb knock downs+ hurries) only indicates how well your qb gets rid of the ball in the face of pressure. A better analysis for how well the oline protected the qb would be (sacks allowed+knock downs+ hurries)/total pass plays. That would tell us how often a defender got to the QB as a percentage of pass plays. Besides, everyone knows that run blocking was the big weakness for our o-line last year. So saying our pass pro was ok is just sticking your head in the sand.

 

 

First, all stats are flawed as they lean toward an outcome that has many other variables.

 

From my perspective, pressures, hurries & sacks against our O-Line & Fitz had much more to do with our overall inability to run the ball consistently. It was a rare occurence when Fitz WASN'T being blitzed last year on pass plays. Why did all our opponents Blitz the hell out of us? 'Cuz we faced so many 'must pass' situations. Beef Moe could never find a seam, Spiller danced too much looking for a seam and Fred's preseason injury held him out and limited his early production. When did we win4/lose 4? The last half of the season, when the run game became more successful.

 

JMO.

[dollars 2 donuts]

 

 

And the bottom 3 for offensive line, PIT, CHI, and TB, all made the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tampa made the playoffs?

 

My memory isn't that bad, is it?

Edited June 10, 2011 by dollars 2 donuts

[paintmyhouse]

well, for one thing both starting receivers were on IR at that point, Nelson the TE was having migraines and missed several games. Lynch was traded away and all the had was Freddy at RB.I gotta think at that point in the season his receiver options were very limited, not to mention the pounding he was taking behind that "not that bad" O line was starting to take its toll. He did miss a game at the end of the season due to an injury, and we all got to watch Brian Brohm fall hard on his face behind that same " not that bad" O line, with that same stellar receiving corps .

 

The man has yet to play a full season and he has missed games every year because of injuries the 3 years he has been in Buffalo....kinda the reason as to why I keep complaining that Nix didn't upgrade the line in the draft!!

 

So, when he gets knocked out for a game or season, will you have full confidence his back up can even make a first down?

 

In the post before this you as a backup QB in 13 games, well, I contend he was not the backup. He was unquestioned starter as of week 3, they cut the other guy. Fitz and Edwards shared 1st team reps for most all of last year's camp BTW. Also, Fitz was hurt for the last game, but seriously, it was more of a mercy sitting than anything, it was a convenient way to see how bad Brohm was against the Jets and try to make you forget how much Fitz even was the week before against a far worse defense the Patriots. Brohm was no worse against a full out blitz Jets team and turned the ball over with 3 INTS and 1 FUMBLE. the week before Fitz had 3 INTS and 2 FUMBLES and got 3 points. You also realize Fitz was dreadful against the Jets earlier in the season too, right? I will use your logic. Brohm did not get to work with what Fitz got to work with earlier against the Jets, however, Fitz still sucked, the first 4 of 6 drives were 3 and out and then punt. Bills did not move the ball, it was a game at halftime still and it was because of the defense, and that defense got tired from the lack of Bills offense.

[PDaDdy]

Last year we were 10th in rushing yards per attempt. So why do people keep saying our o line was terrible in the run game? Our rush totals were lower because of how often we passed, even in games we effectively ran the ball, not because we couldn't run. FJ was (if I am not mistaken) 4th or 5th in the NFL in rushing over the second half of the season once he was full time starter.

 

Because we don't score rushing TDs. If we added up yards per carry to determine the winner at the end of the game that stat might mean something. That being said our yds/carry wasn't ranked that high because our line opened holes it's because Fred Jackson is a good cut back runner and made something out of nothing. If our line could open a hole Spiller would have had a half dozen TDs last year and Freddy would have had more than an embarrassing 5.

 

The line is what it is. Most of the teams have average lines. The steelers had a line that was worse than ours and yet made a deep run.

 

The Steelers have big ben. Not many QBs can throw dimes with 3 guys draped on him. You can't use the exception as the rule.

Edited June 10, 2011 by PDaDdy

[tennesseeboy]

Kevin Boss or Mercedes Lewis are two free agents we should make a move for, assuming neither of them gets the franchise tag. Boss is a vicious run blocker and Lewis is no slouch in that area either. Both of them are scary good receivers as well. It would be a huge upgrade to the offense and to the offensive line to get either one.