Brock Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 If anyone on here that reads this that is apart of Facebook join this group "NO to Toronto! Bills are staying in Buffalo!" I wont expect anything to happen but this would show that there are people still out there that believe in our home team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostbelt City Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Good to know - I'd join em Edited May 11, 2011 by Frostbelt City Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTnSocal Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) If they were to move, I assure you it won't be to Toronto. Edited May 11, 2011 by ARTnSocal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homey D. Clown Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 If they were to move, I assure you it won't be to Toronto. True, probably more likely to become the LA Earthquakes, or the LA Agents.... or something stupid like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 True, probably more likely to become the LA Earthquakes, or the LA Agents.... or something stupid like that. Na I really believe that Mr. Pegula will make a strong effort to keep the Bills here! He would be the third richest owner in the NFL if that happens! How awesome that would be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clancynut Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Na I really believe that Mr. Pegula will make a strong effort to keep the Bills here! He would be the third richest owner in the NFL if that happens! How awesome that would be! Agreed I do not think he wants to be the majority owner, but after seeing how WNY reacted to his purchase of the Sabres, I would not be surprised if he joins a group wanting to keep the Bills here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Someone I know spoke with a guy who worked for Jack Kent Cooke. Take it for what it's worth (second hand info) but this guy says the NFL wants out of Buffalo, period. And the only reason they are still here is because of Ralph. Once he passes the NFL will not even listen to any bidder who will keep the Bills in WNY...or TORONTO! Apparently this guy says the NFL sees the Bills-Toronto series as a flop and doesn't even want to see the team wind up there. So where are the Bills heading? L.A. probably but apparently London, England is a possibility as well. This is second-hand info. I have no idea who this "guy" is but my buddy is not a rumor monger. I'm just repeating what he was told. I hope it's BS. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clancynut Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Someone I know spoke with a guy who worked for Jack Kent Cooke. Take it for what it's worth (second hand info) but this guy says the NFL wants out of Buffalo, period. And the only reason they are still here is because of Ralph. Once he passes the NFL will not even listen to any bidder who will keep the Bills in WNY...or TORONTO! Apparently this guy says the NFL sees the Bills-Toronto series as a flop and doesn't even want to see the team wind up there. So where are the Bills heading? L.A. probably but apparently London, England is a possibility as well. This is second-hand info. I have no idea who this "guy" is but my buddy is not a rumor monger. I'm just repeating what he was told. I hope it's BS. PTR PTR, you are one of the most respected posters on TSW. Just wondering how old this information is? Cooke has not been involved with the NFL since his death in 1997. Hopefully the NFL mindset has changed in 14 years. I still think the Jags are most likely the team to move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) PTR, you are one of the most respected posters on TSW. Just wondering how old this information is? Cooke has not been involved with the NFL since his death in 1997. Hopefully the NFL mindset has changed in 14 years. I still think the Jags are most likely the team to move I had some misgivings about passing this on. Obviously Cooke has not been involved with the NFL for years, but supposedly he still has connections to the league. Enough, in his mind, to form this opinion. This conversation took place in the last few months, by the way. I forgot to mention one more thing: that Sen. Chuck Schumer is the Bills #1 advocate and he is apparently made it known to the league that the Bills belong in Buffalo. I don't know what kind of influence Schumer can exert but at least we have someone in our corner. PTR Edited May 11, 2011 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Nothing against PTR, but the statement "The NFL wants out of Buffalo" is absurd. The NFL thrives in Western New York and I wish numbers could be put on how many NFL ticket sales are due to Buffalo Bills fans. The only thing and I mean only thing Buffalo is missing is a new stadium, and I think this happens as soon as new ownership arrives. But that has nothing to do with the NFL, it would only help the new owner make money. Why would the NFL hate a fan base that fills their stadium, spends money on NFL apparel like mad, has out of town fans litered throughout the country, huge ratings came out of western new york for the draft and those same fans probably support the NFL networks ratings in big numbers, and is one of the founding teams of the league? Doesn't add up. Edited May 11, 2011 by Triple Threat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Nothing against PTR, but the statement "The NFL wants out of Buffalo" is absurd. The NFL thrives in Western New York and I wish numbers could be put on how many NFL ticket sales are due to Buffalo Bills fans. The only thing and I mean only thing Buffalo is missing is a new stadium, and I think this happens as soon as new ownership arrives. But that has nothing to do with the NFL, it would only help the new owner make money. Why would the NFL hate a fan base that fills their stadium, spends money on NFL apparel like mad, has out of town fans litered throughout the country, huge ratings came out of western new york for the draft and those same fans probably support the NFL networks ratings in big numbers, and is one of the founding teams of the league? Doesn't add up. No offense taken. Just repeating 2nd hand stuff that could be total BS. Like I said, my friend, who is not a rumor monger, said this guy had some credentials. He wasn't some bum in a subway or drunk in a bar. Still that doesn't make him credible or plugged into the NFL just because he says so. As for why the NFL "hates" us, we're a shrinking area with a bad economy and no mega-corporations to piss money away on luxury suites. It has nothing to do with (chuckle) fans. PTR Edited May 11, 2011 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills1960 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Where is all this Toronto talk coming from? Has anything changed over the past few years? No. The Bills are a viable franchise that has run into a bad stretch of seasons over the past decade. There are teams in much worse financial shape, and I haven't read one report saying anything about a move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homey D. Clown Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 In all seriousness, this nonsense that a franchise is not viable in WNY stems from the current owner. He has been crying poverty for so long, even his own financial advisers must believe it. Ralph has made a TON of money, and has the county's FULL support. Anyone with just a tad of common sense can see the Metro Erie county population is very large. I know, this term "Metro" is out of place in New York state, but everywhere else it is a very common term. For example, the Tennessee Titans are in Nashville, which is in Davidson county. Nashville's population is basically calculated on the majority of Davidson county. If Buffalo were to be nationally ranked in the same way, you would see a huge jump in where the city stands in the league. In my personal opinion, this is about one man's greed that has spread far enough that the team's "viability" has come into question, when really the old fart simply has lost touch with his fan base, and how strong this area really is. If Russ Brandon was really anything more than a man collecting a paycheck, you'd see more luxury suites filled with Canadian executives, some naming rights and some advertising sold to corporations up north. Since he is not, you get the laughing-stock abomination that is the Bills-Toronto series. Sure, let's handicap the team even more than it needs to be by having them play 9 away games a year. Brilliant! What is this, Major League and the Cleveland Indians? What's next Russ, have the team travel to away games in Metro buses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Being from Toronto I can tell you NFL wont come here. Sure everyone in TO talks about how great it would be but if anything ever materialized from this, it would cause a lot of push back. Mostly from the CFL. Canada would have to look at tweaking border laws since a lot of NFL teams have players with criminal records. Then we would have to look at how much TO would be willing to pay for a new stadium and the location of it. But what I think would be the biggest problem is the no tailgating law in Ontario. It would not be a REAL NFL game if there was no tailgating. I am a proud Canadian but I say keep the NFL (real football) in the USA where it rightfully belongs! For us Canadians who love the game so much, we have NO problem making the drive across the border. If Canada ever has an NFL team I will die a little inside. Go Bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Someone I know spoke with a guy who worked for Jack Kent Cooke. Take it for what it's worth (second hand info) but this guy says the NFL wants out of Buffalo, period. And the only reason they are still here is because of Ralph. Once he passes the NFL will not even listen to any bidder who will keep the Bills in WNY...or TORONTO! Apparently this guy says the NFL sees the Bills-Toronto series as a flop and doesn't even want to see the team wind up there. So where are the Bills heading? L.A. probably but apparently London, England is a possibility as well. This is second-hand info. I have no idea who this "guy" is but my buddy is not a rumor monger. I'm just repeating what he was told. I hope it's BS. PTR LONDON ENGLAND ?? COME ON MAN !!! THERE WERE NEVER ANY BUFFALO'S IN ENGLAND . INCLUDING THESE ONES !! MUST TRULY BE SECOND HAND , SOUNDS LIKE THAT INFO CAME FROM A BILLS HATER !! FROM ANYTHING GOODELL HAS SAID HE WANTS TO KEEP THE BILLS IN BUFFALO & SEEING AS HE'S A JAMESTOWN NATIVE I THINK HE MAY BE THE BILLS BIGGEST ALLIE !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladiebla Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Someone I know spoke with a guy who worked for Jack Kent Cooke. Take it for what it's worth (second hand info) but this guy says the NFL wants out of Buffalo, period. And the only reason they are still here is because of Ralph. Once he passes the NFL will not even listen to any bidder who will keep the Bills in WNY...or TORONTO! Apparently this guy says the NFL sees the Bills-Toronto series as a flop and doesn't even want to see the team wind up there. So where are the Bills heading? L.A. probably but apparently London, England is a possibility as well. This is second-hand info. I have no idea who this "guy" is but my buddy is not a rumor monger. I'm just repeating what he was told. I hope it's BS. PTR Sounds legit enough, the Bills-Toronto series is a flop so far. London makes sense as a destination for a NFL team as does LA, the London series have been sold out (100k seats) every game, timezone wise it fits perfectly (early EST game = normal game time in London), language is english, infrastructure experience is there from both NFL Europe and the International series. What I fail to understand is why move teams and not just add teams. Ow and Goodell gives absolutly nothing about fans, it's all about the money. When they folded NFL Europe they promised to give Germany one NFL game per year, which never happened. NFL Europe was BIG in Germany, Frankfurt Galaxy used to draw crowds bigger then soccer (57k last game, see youtube: ). Europe as a market is much smaller then anything in the US, for instance The Amsterdam Admirals drew 80% of it's crowd from the Amsterdam Area, cities like Rotterdam, Utrecht and The Hague had people interested in seeing American Football but refusing to go to Amsterdam due to their adversery against AJAX Amsterdam (soccer). Those cities are within a 100km radius of each other, a distance most of you most likely find a normal distance to drive to in order to get to the Bills. The operating loss of NFL Europe was only 10 million US$ per year, yet it delivered in training Front Office personell, Refs, Coaches and players whilst at the same time promoting the product NFL. To put that into perspective Goodell earns more then 10 million a year himself or say a player like Kurt Warner who was picked up by Al Luginbill and put under contract with the Rams due to Al Luginbill lobby-ing with the Rams to do so (he needed a contract with an NFL team in order for him to be allowed to have him play for the Amsterdam Admirals) was awarded a contract worth 54$ for 5 years coming straight out of NFL Europe. The only reason Goodell put an end to NFL Europe was because of a select group of whining owners (Jerry) and him wanting to show who the new boss on the block was (NFL Europe was PT his child). The 10 million loss could have easily handled by putting a 10% give back fee into the player contracts (prolly would have meant the league would have turned a profit of 20 million or more a year). Errr anyway.... i ranted off into NFL Europe frustration... Point is this, we had/have guys with tatooes, the works and the fanbase gave it their all, investment parties were interested in taking over NFL Europe from the NFL yet Goodell simply didnt care. And Goodell wont care about the Bills selling out their games if it means there can be more money made by relocating, Ralph cares but if Ralph isnt with us anymore there wont be any stopping Goodell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF Bills Fan Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Owners like Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder want to see Buffalo move to a bigger market. These guys would sell their grandmas if they could make a profit. I am not so sure about Cooke and his people. They were involved so long ago and when the Bills were on the tailend of much success. I wonder if this was not someone from Snyder's group talking? The Toronto series has been a flop from the standpoint that people have not come to the game in Toronto, but the Bills got a big payout and there are more fans from Toronto coming to Bills games, so it has been a success in that regard. If this really was all about expanding the Candadian fan base in Buffalo and not getting Toronto ready for the NFL. I'm more concerned about the future of HSBC in Buffalo than about the Bills leaving right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Owners like Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder want to see Buffalo move to a bigger market. These guys would sell their grandmas if they could make a profit. I am not so sure about Cooke and his people. They were involved so long ago and when the Bills were on the tailend of much success. I wonder if this was not someone from Snyder's group talking? The Toronto series has been a flop from the standpoint that people have not come to the game in Toronto, but the Bills got a big payout and there are more fans from Toronto coming to Bills games, so it has been a success in that regard. If this really was all about expanding the Candadian fan base in Buffalo and not getting Toronto ready for the NFL. I'm more concerned about the future of HSBC in Buffalo than about the Bills leaving right now. Just to clarify: this guy made his connections while in the employ of Cooke. He now works in a field outside of football but claims to still know people in the league. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clancynut Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Does it surprise anyone Jones and Snyder would want to move any small market teams to a larger markets? I am sure any prospective owner wanting to keep the team in Buffalo would have to meet a set of guidelines. These probably would include maximizing local revenues (First Niagara Stadium anyone?) and actually a no brainer, probably one or two more games a year in Toronto, and the end of revenue sharing by the larger market teams. Perhaps the eventual construction of a new stadium or a major renovation of the Ralph . If the Bills do expand the Toronto series, perhaps they could recruit more corporate sponsors and have them sign one deal to cover suites in Orchard Park and Toronto. All pure speculation for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 In all seriousness, this nonsense that a franchise is not viable in WNY stems from the current owner. He has been crying poverty for so long, even his own financial advisers must believe it. Ralph has made a TON of money, and has the county's FULL support. Anyone with just a tad of common sense can see the Metro Erie county population is very large. I know, this term "Metro" is out of place in New York state, but everywhere else it is a very common term. For example, the Tennessee Titans are in Nashville, which is in Davidson county. Nashville's population is basically calculated on the majority of Davidson county. If Buffalo were to be nationally ranked in the same way, you would see a huge jump in where the city stands in the league. In my personal opinion, this is about one man's greed that has spread far enough that the team's "viability" has come into question, when really the old fart simply has lost touch with his fan base, and how strong this area really is. If Russ Brandon was really anything more than a man collecting a paycheck, you'd see more luxury suites filled with Canadian executives, some naming rights and some advertising sold to corporations up north. Since he is not, you get the laughing-stock abomination that is the Bills-Toronto series. Sure, let's handicap the team even more than it needs to be by having them play 9 away games a year. Brilliant! What is this, Major League and the Cleveland Indians? What's next Russ, have the team travel to away games in Metro buses? I think you are correct in understanding that Mr. Ralph's consistent yammering about the difficulties of being in a small market and essentially crying poverty simply runs against the most real numbers which we have: Many TSW folks have made the correct judgment that when the NFL team owners assess the situation in regard to a Buffalo franchise and a Toronto franchise (or LA Earthquakes or whatever) they are likely to make their judgement based on the sole criterion of what makes them the most money. In this light the choice between the small Buffalo market and the far larger Toronto market (or LA or elsewhere) is clear. HOWEVER, the folks who make this simple comparison actually make a simple mistake in this calculation. WHAT IS THE CHOICE FOR THE NFL WHICH MAKES THE INDIVIDUAL OWNER THE MOST MONEY WHEN CONSIDERING THE BUFFALO AND TORONTO FRANCHISES? The answer to this question obviously ain't Buffalo! However, the answer obviously ain't Toronto either! The obvious answer for which maximizes NFL profits is BOTH. Is it possible for two major league sports franchises to survive operating in Toronto and in Buffalo? Ask the Sabres and the Maple Leafs. If the NFL were to walk away from the home of a franchise worth almost a billion dollars by independent estimates, it certainly would carry a lot of this wealth to its new home. However, it would be walking away from a huge amount of cash money which will be deducted from the team's actual value which involve cash money which cannot be transported, such as: A. 44,000+ season ticket holders. For those who claim we must move how much do you estimate this is worth that the NFL is all set to walk away from. B. Some amount of cash which goes into the coffers for parking, beer and weenies at the game, Zubazz pants and other team gear. For those who claim we must move how much do you estimate this is worth that the NFL is all set to walk away from. C. Decades of relationships and contracts with a plethora of commercial buyers who would all love to pay money to TV networks, newsletters, and other forms of advertisement. When West Herr or whatever car company it is buys Steve Takers time to advertise their product and pay the media for print, TV, and radio saturation they have decided to advertise the Bills and the Bills never pay a cent. For those who claim we must move how much do you estimate this is worth that the NFL is all set to walk away from. All of this can certainly be rebuilt in the new town, but it will take effort and most of all $. If the NFL walks away from Buffalo they not only walk away from 100s of millions dollars which cannot be moved to the new franchise, but you also create a new cost which keeping the Bills here does not have. I have yet to see economic case made that moving the franchise makes economic sense for the league. Maybe it does, but outside of the conventional wisdom that Toronto or LA is a bigger market than Buffalo I have not seen any statement of collected and analyzed facts to support this beyond conventional wisdom, The bigger issue is that I really have not seen anyone make the case why the NFL looking at the money currently actually made in Buffalo and what potentially might be made in Toronto the NFL would not choose both. In order to secure a franchise ownership whether by a new franchise or acquisition of an old one you need the votes of 3/4 of the owners. It is simply a mistake to assume that this decision will be made based on what is best for one Art Modell or 1 Georgia Frontiere. The decision will be made based on what makes the most money for the NFL as a whole. Some observers also make the mistake in addition to understanding the individual team owner does not make the ultimate decision but also misread what is the market, The market is not this franchise city or that franchise city. If so, teams would have been out of Jacksonville, Buffalo, TN or wherever to LA or somewhere in dotcom land long ago. The cash money is provided by the TV networks and the real customers are eyeballs all over the world. When it comes from making money from by far the largest payer to the NFL, the name of the game is to get eyeballs in Toronto, Mexico City, and Tokyo and Peking if you can figure out the time zone logistics. The key to making profits for every NFL team as a group and individually is to sell beer, cars, soap and saki in ads. Getting a franchise fee from Rogers communication or somebody in lA is not a small thing in and of itself (but split 31 ways it actually is pretty small). Actually selling 40,000+ tickets is also a chunk of change. However, it simply pales in comparison to the billions to be made by expanding to new cities in particular in new countries. The primary value of the Bills to the NFL is not in the relative chump change of ticket sales and franchise fees. Its value is that what the NFL is trying to sell to Mexico City, Toronto, a host of European cities, Tokyo, Sydney or whoever has eyeballs a story. Actually if the Bills leave Buffalo and the story used to attract investment from a new city are pictures of crying and depressed WNYers because someone stole their team this is not good story telling or selling. The Bills value comes from being a fellow team with ties and history back to the AFL which the NFL is happy to sell membership to new markets to join the club. I think it is virtually certain the Bills are not moving because the NFL makes a lot more money if the franchise stays right where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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