Who misses McKelvin?

[thebandit27]

You are kidding, right? Please tell me that you don't REALLY think that in 2008 we needed a cornerback more than we needed a Guard, Center, RT, LB, DT or DE.

 

You couldn't possibly believe this, could you?

 

Edit: By the way, Fabian Washington was selected 23rd.

 

Actually, coming off their first season in Buffalo, I thought Derrick Dockery and Langston Walker played reasonably well. Couple their decent play with a pro bowl season from Jason Peters, and I thought the OL was in much improved shape.

 

And considering that the team traded for Marcus Stroud and drafted John McCargo, I thought DT was looking pretty good.

 

So with Nate Clements gone, Jabari Greer having started only half a season in the NFL, and Terrence McGee's contract set to expire the following season, Yes Bill, I thought CB was a pretty big need. I actually thought the priority should be (1) WR, (2) CB, (3) DE, but that's another story.

 

And yes, I know Washington was selected 23rd, but if you're going to tell me that the crux of your point was based on the literal draft slot of the players as opposed to the fact that they're both 1st round DBs, then I'm going to dismiss that as a point of minutia rather than a sensible argument. If that's the road you're taking, then Oakland's situation is even more significant since Huff was selected before Whitner, right? My response was simply that Oakland also lost 2 1st round DBs and their pass defense was #1 in the NFL, which contradicts my perceived principle of your point. But as I said, if your point is specific to the importance of the #8 and #11 picks, as opposed to the importance of first round DBs (the subject that you continuously harp on), then I suppose the best strategy would be to pick anywhere other than 8 or 11.

[Red]

I do not, and if anyone (after Parrish) is trade bait it'd be him in my book.

 

Man, this trade banter is truly worthless.

 

Why would we trade a #1 selected CB who has yet to grow into his britches- so to speak?

 

We would just have to eventually spend another draft pick on the position anyways. We will now have 2-3 solid corners on the roster with McGee, McKelvin, and Florence. Corner was awesome before this season too, and I don't know what happened to Youboty.

 

Leave McKelvin (and his lawn) alone.

[Bill from NYC]

Actually, coming off their first season in Buffalo, I thought Derrick Dockery and Langston Walker played reasonably well. Couple their decent play with a pro bowl season from Jason Peters, and I thought the OL was in much improved shape.

 

And considering that the team traded for Marcus Stroud and drafted John McCargo, I thought DT was looking pretty good.

 

So with Nate Clements gone, Jabari Greer having started only half a season in the NFL, and Terrence McGee's contract set to expire the following season, Yes Bill, I thought CB was a pretty big need. I actually thought the priority should be (1) WR, (2) CB, (3) DE, but that's another story.

 

And yes, I know Washington was selected 23rd, but if you're going to tell me that the crux of your point was based on the literal draft slot of the players as opposed to the fact that they're both 1st round DBs, then I'm going to dismiss that as a point of minutia rather than a sensible argument. If that's the road you're taking, then Oakland's situation is even more significant since Huff was selected before Whitner, right? My response was simply that Oakland also lost 2 1st round DBs and their pass defense was #1 in the NFL, which contradicts my perceived principle of your point. But as I said, if your point is specific to the importance of the #8 and #11 picks, as opposed to the importance of first round DBs (the subject that you continuously harp on), then I suppose the best strategy would be to pick anywhere other than 8 or 11.

 

McCargo never did anything good so I'm not sure what convinced you that DT wasn't a need with or without Stroud. The thing about OL is that most of the time, you cannot get one in free agency. There have been exceptions (Faneca, Stienbach) but they are rare. As far as left tackles go, you really almost never see a really good one lost in free agency or traded (unleess of course you are the Bills).

 

The McKelvin selection was symbolic of everything that is wrong with ths franchise. For years we draft 1st round dbs, lose the good ones, and replace them with other 1st round dbs. This, as you can see, is a proven, can't miss method to lose.

 

When you have a quarterback and your OL and front 7 are solid, then it's time to go for a db. Levy/Jauron do the opposite and this is why we have a bad team. When you have blockers such as Duke Preston and Melvin Fowler, you simply cannot pass up a Nick Mangold to draft Donte Whitner. Jauron didn't want Branden Albert; he wanted Leodis McKelvin.

 

When a team makes stupid moves like this, they will simply lose. It really is that simple.

[mrags]

McCargo never did anything good so I'm not sure what convinced you that DT wasn't a need with or without Stroud. The thing about OL is that most of the time, you cannot get one in free agency. There have been exceptions (Faneca, Stienbach) but they are rare. As far as left tackles go, you really almost never see a really good one lost in free agency or traded (unleess of course you are the Bills).

 

The McKelvin selection was symbolic of everything that is wrong with ths franchise. For years we draft 1st round dbs, lose the good ones, and replace them with other 1st round dbs. This, as you can see, is a proven, can't miss method to lose.

 

When you have a quarterback and your OL and front 7 are solid, then it's time to go for a db. Levy/Jauron do the opposite and this is why we have a bad team. When you have blockers such as Duke Preston and Melvin Fowler, you simply cannot pass up a Nick Mangold to draft Donte Whitner. Jauron didn't want Branden Albert; he wanted Leodis McKelvin.

 

When a team makes stupid moves like this, they will simply lose. It really is that simple.

 

The point Bandit stated wasnt that there wasnt a need at OL, or that there wasnt a need at a compitent coaching staff, scouting staff, ownership.

Its already known that its a dumb move to continuously not sign your quality players regardless of any position. You can look at the following to know that:

Williams

Washington

Clements

Fletcher

Winfield

Greer

Peters

 

At the time the Bills were looking at something they were strong at and continuing to keep that aspect of their game in a power position. It is opinion that any good team should start at the inside of the lines and work their way out. It is not always the mold for championship teams, just like the QB position, see:

Trent Dilfer

Brad Johnson

Mark Rypien

Jeff Hostetler

Jim McMahon

 

The Bills obviously had multiple needs and chose the best player available on the board and someone they thought would/could help them for years to come. FYI, its not always on the team why the player wont re-sign with the team that drafts them. They didnt have much of a choice to come here in the first place.

 

Sorry to jump in on your thunder Bandit.

[QB Bills]

The Bills screwed up letting go of Greer. He was better than any of these other CBs anyway.

[lets_go_bills]

I miss McKelvin. He's shown great potential. He's going to be a very good corner.

[Bill from NYC]

The Bills obviously had multiple needs and chose the best player available on the board

 

Really? When was this?

[thebandit27]

McCargo never did anything good so I'm not sure what convinced you that DT wasn't a need with or without Stroud. The thing about OL is that most of the time, you cannot get one in free agency. There have been exceptions (Faneca, Stienbach) but they are rare. As far as left tackles go, you really almost never see a really good one lost in free agency or traded (unleess of course you are the Bills).

 

The McKelvin selection was symbolic of everything that is wrong with ths franchise. For years we draft 1st round dbs, lose the good ones, and replace them with other 1st round dbs. This, as you can see, is a proven, can't miss method to lose.

 

When you have a quarterback and your OL and front 7 are solid, then it's time to go for a db. Levy/Jauron do the opposite and this is why we have a bad team. When you have blockers such as Duke Preston and Melvin Fowler, you simply cannot pass up a Nick Mangold to draft Donte Whitner. Jauron didn't want Branden Albert; he wanted Leodis McKelvin.

 

When a team makes stupid moves like this, they will simply lose. It really is that simple.

 

First off, toward the end of his rookie season, McCargo started to play pretty good football; nobody expected him to come into camp out of shape in 2007. Even so, his improving play, coupled with the improving play of Kyle Williams and the additions of Stroud and Spencer Johnson made DT seem like much less of a need. I don't really see how that's a point of debate, unless you believe that adding 2 veteran talents to augment 2 young talents doesn't constitute attention to the position.

 

Regarding FA offensive lineman, your point is kind of misplaced. The team had Jason Peters at LT, why would they be looking to draft another one? Unless, of course, you're going to contend that they already knew he'd be a holdout and need to be traded, which I cannot believe is true. The fact of the matter is that Buffalo believed that they had a good foundation on the offensive line, coming off of a solid year in 2007 (in which they ranked 15th in rushing yards and 11th in fewest sacks allowed), and they weren't necessarily wrong to think so.

 

As to your assertion about 1st round DBs, please enlighten me how the team did it "for years". They drafted Whitner in 2006 (when S was a big hole) and McKelvin in 2008 (when CB was a big hole). Before that:

 

2000 - Eric Flowers/DE

2001 - Nate Clements/CB

2002 - Mike Williams/OT

2003 - Willis McGahee/RB

2004 - Lee Evans/WR and JP Losman/QB

2005 - no first round pick

 

I see one DB in there. One. I don't mean to be rude, Bill, but it seems that you have a distorted view of the past if you really believe what it is you say.

 

Lastly, there's nothing wrong with drafting a DB in the first round, regardless of the team's situation. The draft is about getting the best player available, regardless of position. That's what the perennially good teams do. I don't see anyone in Miami complaining that Parcells drafted 2 CBs with his top 2 picks this year. The Arizona Cardinals drafted Rogers-Cromartie, despite boasting an OL that allowed the same number of sacks as Buffalo's in 2007 (however their running game ranked well behind Buffalo's), and went to the Superbowl.

 

My point, Bill, is simply this: the team drafts for need. When they needed DBs, they drafted DBs. It works if you get the right guys. Guys like Polamalu, Reed, Sanders, etc., they change games (when they're healthy). It's not a coincidence that all of Pittsburgh's losses have come in games in which Polamalu didn't play.

 

I think you're too hung up on it.

[Wooderson]

I loved McKelvin and can't wait for him to come back, but in all honesty I was impressed with the way Florence has played this year. The game that really stood out was the Houston game. Pretty much shut Andre Johnson down for most of the game. Definitely wasn't expecting that type of production out of him when McKelvin went down.

[billsfreak]

McKelvin might be a good corner at some point. Right now it's impossible to say. There is imo an equal chance that he will become just another gadget player upon whom we wasted another nice first round pick.

 

Quite a few very good players were selected after McKelvin such as Clady, Albert and Flacco, but this draft was "Jauroned."

 

There will never be another team NFL in any of your lifetimes that loses a #8 and #11 due to injury in the secondary, and the quality of play stays the same. Virtually every other position is lacking mind you but we could lose 6 players and probably field an OK secondary, while losing of course.

 

Unbelieveable.

It is funny how we have a front office full of As# Clowns, but Jauron gets blamed for the draft as well as every other thing that has went wrong with this f/up organization.

[billsfreak]

I loved McKelvin and can't wait for him to come back, but in all honesty I was impressed with the way Florence has played this year. The game that really stood out was the Houston game. Pretty much shut Andre Johnson down for most of the game. Definitely wasn't expecting that type of production out of him when McKelvin went down.

Over the past month or so, Florence has probably been the best player on the defense.

[dancing_joker]

I hope McKelvin ends up being a better cornerback than a kick returner.

[VADC Bills]

I really like what McKelvin brings to the team. He has the potential to be a top notch corner and returner.

Although I like many was really pissed at him after the NE game. I place the blame on our coaching staff. Bellichick consistantly challenges his players with situational coaching and briefing them before big plays. I don't think that happens here. If it did you would not have seen the errors by McKelvin and Parrish. Sure these guys are paid a lot and should know better but coaches are paid quite well to be good coaches and most good coaches go the extra mile to review the situation to make sure everyone is on the same page.

People have called for Lynch and Poz to traded. Well in the purging of talent that we gone through in the past few years the Bills management have taken away the on field veteran leadership that could have accelerated their learning curve. I think Poz still makes rookie errors because of this. I would have loved to see him play behind London Fletcher for a year so he could benefit from a vet. Lynch is the same. It would have been nice to see him learn from a veteran on how to block as well as pass catch and hitting the hole because it seems at times as though he has no clue on where the hole is. The same goes for Whitner and Edwards. Notice that Kyle Williams plays much better since Stroud has been there. The Bills management totally under estimated the value of veteran leadership.

These guys have had to grow up on their own. None of these players should be traded...you're not going to get much for them anyway. However when you remove the veteran leadership it has to be replaced by excellent coaching and I don't feel that it has been. Young players have to be set up to succeed not just plugged in to figure it out and perform.

[Bill from NYC]

As to your assertion about 1st round DBs, please enlighten me how the team did it "for years". They drafted Whitner in 2006 (when S was a big hole) and McKelvin in 2008 (when CB was a big hole). Before that:

 

2000 - Eric Flowers/DE

2001 - Nate Clements/CB

2002 - Mike Williams/OT

2003 - Willis McGahee/RB

2004 - Lee Evans/WR and JP Losman/QB

2005 - no first round pick

 

I see one DB in there. One. I don't mean to be rude, Bill, but it seems that you have a distorted view of the past if you really believe what it is you say.

 

Start at 1990. Do you see any there. Any?

 

Besides, why did you leave out Winfield in 99? And, as soon as Marv and Dick got here their main focus was on the secondary. Do you dispute this?

 

You talk of need but in 06 the Bills needed a Guard, Center and RT. Levy was sitting there with the #8 and said on sirius that there were multiple offers to trade down. He could have drafted either Davin Joseph or Nick Mangold AND Jeremy Trueblood, needs not withstanding. This, and their continued stupidity resulted in the Bills having a small, weak team that loses football games on a consistent basis.

 

I too am sorry if I appear rude, but it astounds me that there are still those who excuse this insanity. If the safety from Tenn. or USC are the best players available when we draft, should we select one? If we do, the team will probably continue to suck because players at other positions are getting old and/or injured. There is no strong unit on this team other than the secondary, except perhaps running back, but there's nobody to block for them as usual.

On top of all this we play in the elements where it is often tough to pass, and a running game is needed, as well as the prevention of opponents from doing so.

 

Hopefully a GM with a brain will come to town and correct this long term stupidity. We really do deserve better than this.

[BillsfaninFl]

I do not, and if anyone (after Parrish) is trade bait it'd be him in my book.

 

Do you not miss him because of the way we have shut down opposing receivers and quarterbacks in his absense?

Or is it that he has not been named to the Pro Bowl yet?

Keep in mind that one of the brightest stars among young cornerbacks in the NFL: Daryl Revis of the Jets, was picked on during his early games. McKelvin hasn't played poorly. He's just made some mistakes that young players make.

[thebandit27]

Start at 1990. Do you see any there. Any?

 

Besides, why did you leave out Winfield in 99? And, as soon as Marv and Dick got here their main focus was on the secondary. Do you dispute this?

 

You talk of need but in 06 the Bills needed a Guard, Center and RT. Levy was sitting there with the #8 and said on sirius that there were multiple offers to trade down. He could have drafted either Davin Joseph or Nick Mangold AND Jeremy Trueblood, needs not withstanding. This, and their continued stupidity resulted in the Bills having a small, weak team that loses football games on a consistent basis.

 

I too am sorry if I appear rude, but it astounds me that there are still those who excuse this insanity. If the safety from Tenn. or USC are the best players available when we draft, should we select one? If we do, the team will probably continue to suck because players at other positions are getting old and/or injured. There is no strong unit on this team other than the secondary, except perhaps running back, but there's nobody to block for them as usual.

On top of all this we play in the elements where it is often tough to pass, and a running game is needed, as well as the prevention of opponents from doing so.

 

Hopefully a GM with a brain will come to town and correct this long term stupidity. We really do deserve better than this.

 

I don't think that the DBs the team drafted in the early 90's, the last of which was drafted 16 years ago, are what's having the affect on the current team to which you refer.

 

I maintain my stance that the team drafted to fill it's biggest needs in both 2006 and 2008. By and large, most analysts believed that the team's largest hole was at DT, which is why so many pundits projected Haloti Ngata or Broderick Bunkley to be selected at the Bills' #8 pick. However, I can remember thinking that, with the release of Lawyer Milloy and the team switching to the safety-reliant cover 2 defense, SS was almost as big of a hole.

 

I can't say that I disagree that C and G were needs as well, but with the free agent money/draft picks that the team had invested in Melvin Fowler, Duke Preson, Chris Villarial, Mike Gandy, etc. (all of whom started for pretty successful teams in previous years), I can understand why they felt like they should shift their focus to the defensive side of the ball. It made sense to me then, and it still makes sense to me now.

 

Personally, I would have been happier if they took the DT first and then came back and grabbed a SS with their 2nd pick, but you know what they say about hind-sight.

 

As to what they should do this year, well, I'm of the opinion that it all starts with the QB. So if whomever is in charge of the draft room believes there's a franchise QB available, they should take him without a second thought. Absent that opporunity, they should do what all good teams do and optimize between need and value. They clearly need a left tackle, so if the right value player presents itself, that should be their targeted move. But if it comes down to taking a 2nd-tier OT or QB versus taking the top LB on the board, I'd take the LB without hesitation. Just happens to be my school of thought; the better player will help your team more. Same idea regarding Eric Berry, the safety from Tennessee that you mentioned: if he's there, I'd consider it, sure. Because if he's really the Polamalu-Sanders type player that many are predicting he'll be, I believe every team needs that kind of guy.

 

Just my 1 cent.

[thebandit27]

Do you not miss him because of the way we have shut down opposing receivers and quarterbacks in his absense?

Or is it that he has not been named to the Pro Bowl yet?

Keep in mind that one of the brightest stars among young cornerbacks in the NFL: Daryl Revis of the Jets, was picked on during his early games. McKelvin hasn't played poorly. He's just made some mistakes that young players make.

 

The Bills have an excellent pass defense without McKelvin. 5th in the NFL in yards/game, 2nd in TDs allowed, and 1st in INTs.

 

Also, 2 of the 3 games in which the team gave up the most passing yards were the two in which McKelvin played (vs. NE and TB), so that kind of hurts your argument.

[spartacus]

I do not, and if anyone (after Parrish) is trade bait it'd be him in my book.

 

McElvin is the typical Bills top 12 pick -

 

a situational player at bests who vastly underperforms even that limited role

 

and to think we could have the stud LT- Ryan Clady with that pick

[Bill from NYC]

McElvin is the typical Bills top 12 pick -

 

a situational player at bests who vastly underperforms even that limited role

 

and to think we could have the stud LT- Ryan Clady with that pick

 

How do people miss this?

[IHFO]

How do people miss this?

the same way you miss the fact that the reason buffalo sucks isn't because they continue to draft DB's in the first round...the reason is because nomatter who they draft OL, TE, WR, DT, etc etc they suck period it had nothing to do with DB's it's the players in general. but you can't see that (and i'm really trying to not insult you but the whole DB in the first round angle is getting so annoying when it's not true). what si it now 2009? they have taken 3 DB's in the first round since 2000...lets not blow it outta proportion..if they would have drafted 3 OL men with those three picks the Bills would still suck because we'd have three more mike williams to talk about...talent elavuation and or coaching is a serious issue with this football team.