LOST...Season 6

[KRC]

One could also argue that they had achieved 'Dharma' in the Buddhist sense.... and that the Dharma Initiative actually helped bring about these peoples' Dharma.

 

You do not achieve Dharma. Dharma is the path to enlightenment. It is not enlightenment.

[duey]

One would hope that the quality of LOST will always draw people to it.

As I believe that this is truly a show that will live on in the hearts and minds of current and future viewers, scoring the full Blueray set is a must for me. I have a 10 year old who is dying to watch the show but Mrs. duey and I figured is a still a few years away. And then of course there's my four year old daughter. I'd love to sit down with both of them and watch the series from beginning to end. It will be great talking about it all over again...and God knows what new observations and insights may arise.

[Scraps]

And that's the sh---- part as media gets more complicated beyond stone inscriptions. Paper, celluloid, DVDs, the ether that we call the Internet, etc. don't last. Hell, even stone carving doesn't last.

 

Stone carving lasts. They are just a bit inconvenient.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just found the sensibility in this posting to be very nice. These LOST threads are the place we made to be together....

 

made the same point to a co-worker yesterday, that the show was about a group of people brought together and the best way to make it through was with each other. same thing could be applied to the fans. live together, be very confused alone. the more an individual was willing to become part of the community, the more value they were able to derive from the series. wonderful.

[Acantha]

Found this post on another site. No idea of authenticity, but thought it adds to the discussion (if it hasn't already been posted, I haven't read the whole thread).

 

Found on lostmediamentions this is some guy from Bad Robot (the company that produced Lost) amazing post:

 

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

 

First ...

The Island:

 

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

 

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

 

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

 

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

 

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

 

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

 

Now...

 

Sideways World:

 

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

 

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

 

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

 

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

 

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

 

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

 

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

 

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

 

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

 

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.

[duey]

Found this post on another site. No idea of authenticity, but thought it adds to the discussion (if it hasn't already been posted, I haven't read the whole thread).

Amazing...and now it all comes full circle.

[DrDawkinstein]

Found this post on another site. No idea of authenticity, but thought it adds to the discussion (if it hasn't already been posted, I haven't read the whole thread).

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YES!

[Rico]

Found this post on another site. No idea of authenticity, but thought it adds to the discussion (if it hasn't already been posted, I haven't read the whole thread).

Thanks, I copied, pasted, & saved it this time. No names attached, so it's all good.

[Acantha]

 

Believe it or not, that wasn't intended. I hadn't read much of this thread before today, and was just getting around to skimming through it. I assume that post was the one deleted earlier?

 

If so, I apologize Tgreg, I wasn't trying to throw that back in your face.

 

Honestly, I'm not very interested in all the nitpicking analysis of the series. Not to say there was anything wrong with others doing it, but I always thought all of the intense scrutiny of every detail really took away from the show for me. And while others have said they were disappointed with the questions left open at the end, I was exactly the opposite. As the weeks passed and the show dwindled down I was dreading a neatly wrapped ending with all questions answered. It would have made LOST "just another show" for me. The fact that the ending was so much more about the relationship of the characters and not the island or answers was excellent to me. The fact that Jacob was flawed and didn't have all the answers was great. Having a resolution without all questions answered is pretty much how life works, and really set this show apart.

 

Like others I was emotionally struck by the series and especially the ending. As ludicrous as it sounds, it reaffirmed the appreciation I have for the relationships in my life. And while I'm sure it's a fleeting emotion, I'm glad I experienced it.

 

*Edited to add some thoughts about the show.

[DrDawkinstein]

 

Believe it or not, that wasn't intended. I hadn't read much of this thread before today, and was just getting around to skimming through it. I assume that post was the one deleted earlier?

 

If so, sorry. I wasn't trying to spread an unwanted post.

 

ha, yeah, that was written by "someone" here and originated on this board.

[UConn James]

Here's a clip from E! Krisitin Dos Santos, where she spills a little re: who the Kwon candidate was, the MIB's name (Samuel, translated to "Man of God" in Hebrew. I'm surprised no one here responded to that news --- kind of a validation that it didn't matter that much?) and what the entry for '108' meant in the Lighthouse. The video was getting very choppy for me. She also said that "the producers have gone into radio silence and are never, ever going to answer questions about the show." Some of the more important points:

 

1. It was MIB-as-Christian Shephard's form who was the Jacob's Cabin ghost. Kristin said that if you go back, you can see the white shoes he was wearing in the casket. MIB-as-Christian's eye was also the one that appeared at the window to Hurley.

 

2. Some further information about Walt will be given some attention in the DVDs. [i would suspect that this will be part of the Hurley-reign epilogue.]

 

3. The Kwon candidate was Jin. Sun was not considered a candidate b/c she was a mother. [And further to that, she was an actual birth mother, not a guardian-type mother as Kate was serving to Aaron.]

 

4. The entry under '108' in the Lighthouse didn't matter. Evidently, it was a made-up name. The Lighthouse served only as a way for Jack to ultimately realize/see his purpose. We all were puzzled that it didn't say 'Hume' when in reality, it was probably a made-up Kaffafka name.

 

5. Krisitin was told that the Protector of the Island can change the weather on the Island. Either subconsciously or consciously. To draw someone to or send someone away from the Island.... She cited the sudden onset of the storm that drove the Black Rock so far inland, and the rainstorm just before Mother was killed.

 

You do not achieve Dharma. Dharma is the path to enlightenment. It is not enlightenment.

 

Touche, Ken. As one of your belief system, what did you think of the ending? (Going by a vague IIRC history of your postings & your under-avatar line and the fact that you're posting here, I'm assuming that belief system and that you watched the show).

 

As I believe that this is truly a show that will live on in the hearts and minds of current and future viewers, scoring the full Blueray set is a must for me. I have a 10 year old who is dying to watch the show but Mrs. duey and I figured is a still a few years away. And then of course there's my four year old daughter. I'd love to sit down with both of them and watch the series from beginning to end. It will be great talking about it all over again...and God knows what new observations and insights may arise.

 

Yeah. I will be doing that with present and future gens of my family, when they're ready. Actually, getting the Blu-rays may just make it possible to loan out the DVDs frequently. I have an uncle who's a 100% mentally disabled Vietnam vet who at this point in his life, reading a lot about it, went to the Marine Corps museum, and is finally achieving something close to peace with that time in his life and what happened. I think he really needs to see this show, especially as it relates to that final Christian Shephard speech.

 

 

Believe it or not, that wasn't intended. I hadn't read much of this thread before today, and was just getting around to skimming through it. I assume that post was the one deleted earlier?

 

If so, I apologize Tgreg, I wasn't trying to throw that back in your face.

 

Honestly, I'm not very interested in all the nitpicking analysis of the series. Not to say there was anything wrong with others doing it, but I always thought all of the intense scrutiny of every detail really took away from the show for me. And while others have said they were disappointed with the questions left open at the end, I was exactly the opposite. As the weeks passed and the show dwindled down I was dreading a neatly wrapped ending with all questions answered. It would have made LOST "just another show" for me. The fact that the ending was so much more about the relationship of the characters and not the island or answers was excellent to me. The fact that Jacob was flawed and didn't have all the answers was great. Having a resolution without all questions answered is pretty much how life works, and really set this show apart.

 

Like others I was emotionally struck by the series and especially the ending. As ludicrous as it sounds, it reaffirmed the appreciation I have for the relationships in my life. And while I'm sure it's a fleeting emotion, I'm glad I experienced it.

 

*Edited to add some thoughts about the show.

 

Well, I think the toothpaste is already out of the tube anyway.... Not quite sure why it was deleted. I would be pretty proud to have written that and be able to deliver some answers to people who are having trouble connecting the dots.

 

I loved finding out that the Protector was not imbued with any really special powers or trove of knowledge when s/he sipped from the cup. Really, all they've got is their wits, and what they've learned and will learn about the Island and its properties.

 

I always want to be reminded of this show's final message re: our relationships. I have it as my desktop and want it as something to hang on my wall. If ABC or whoever doesn't release a print of that church scene with the Light, I'll do it myself if I have to.... It comes so close to what I hope whatever comes next, is. (My only nitpick is that Vincent wasn't there. If my dogs aren't in 'heaven' then I don't want to go there).

[UConn James]

It's also just dawning on me that among the candidates that Jacob touched, Hurley and Sayid weren't touched until after the O6 got off the island. Further, Hurley wasn't touched until after Locke was killed. Can we view that as a last-minute addition from Jacob once he had an idea of what MIB would try to do? Once Locke was dead, Jacob knew that whoever took over right after him (and he always hoped it would be Jack) would probably need to sacrifice him/herself? Hurley as such an 11th-hour addition makes more sense to me that way.

[DrDawkinstein]

It's also just dawning on me that among the candidates that Jacob touched, Hurley and Sayid weren't touched until after the O6 got off the island. Further, Hurley wasn't touched until after Locke was killed. Can we view that as a last-minute addition from Jacob once he had an idea of what MIB would try to do? Once Locke was dead, Jacob knew that whoever took over right after him (and he always hoped it would be Jack) would probably need to sacrifice him/herself? Hurley as such an 11th-hour addition makes more sense to me that way.

 

good catch on the Hurley timing. wonder if that had something to do with him being originally "on the list" in season 1, but then sent back?

[Rico]

Anyone still on the fence re: getting this on Blu-ray, make no mistake, they are spectacular.

 

Some of the best BDs out there... so much better than the HD broadcasts and the DVDs.

[UConn James]

Krisitin also writes:

 

Whether you loved or hated the finale (it's no secret I loved it), one of the coolest things I've been hearing over the past few days is that some fans are liking it more the more they've thought about it. I think it's a finale that grows on you, if you let it. How many other finales can say the same?

 

If you didn't like it, or liked it but didn't love it, ABC is re-playing "The End" on Saturday night (5/29), with fewer commercials. On a second glance, you might connect some things you missed.

 

I have to say that it seems when I first watch an ep I watch for content --- what happens, how do things make sense. And when I see it again, I get the emotional content. I didn't tear up much in the finale on Sunday. But the waterworks were flowing when I re-watched it. I don't know if I'm weird in that regard or what, but that's just how it goes.

[KRC]

Touche, Ken. As one of your belief system, what did you think of the ending? (Going by a vague IIRC history of your postings & your under-avatar line and the fact that you're posting here, I'm assuming that belief system and that you watched the show).

 

Yes, I am Buddhist and yes, I watched the show (I have seen every episode).

 

I am fine with the ending. It didn't follow Buddhist philosophy, but I do not think that was their intent. They wanted to give an interpretation of things based on various religions and philosophies. They wanted to try to find a common ground among the religions, which is why I think you had the stained-glass window showing the major religions of the world.

 

I am not the type of person that is going to get bent out of shape because they showed something that does not follow my belief system (it's a TV show). Things like limbo or purgatory do not exist in Buddhism. There is no searching for a soulmate. There is no delay before being reborn. However, I do remember mentioning to my wife some references to Buddhist philosophies as we watched previous seasons (I do not recall the specific examples).

 

Overall, I thought it was a very good show. I think that there are some things that could have been better and I would have liked to have more questions answered on the show, rather than have them answered after the show was finished. The fact that we need to go to message boards and places like E! to get answers, to me, means that things could have been handled a little better in the show. That does not detract from the fact that it was a very good show. With all of the crap that gets put out these days, it is nice to have a quality show like this. It really stands out.

[duey]

good catch on the Hurley timing. wonder if that had something to do with him being originally "on the list" in season 1, but then sent back?

I think Hurley was touched a different way. That guy came back from the Pacific with the numbers in his head and then he told them to Hurley. The rest is history. Perhaps Jacob made sure that guy heard the numbers so that he could get to Hurley through him.

[DrDawkinstein]

I think Hurley was touched a different way. That guy came back from the Pacific with the numbers in his head and then he told them to Hurley. The rest is history. Perhaps Jacob made sure that guy heard the numbers so that he could get to Hurley through him.

 

agreed that Hurley was brought (or summoned) to the Island from the beginning, just not sure exactly what the touches mean. Sawyer and Kate were visited/touched when they were very young, some 30 years before they got on the flight. While Jack wasnt touched until he was an adult. And Sayid and Hurley not touched until after they had already left once.

 

Also, did we ever see any continuation of the scene when Juliet was a child and her parents told her about their divorce? That whole scene seemed out of place to me. especially because Juliet is older than I am, but that scene seemed to be set in the early 90s (?). I dont get it.

[ricojes]

Don't know if this has been posted or not, but this aleternate ending would have answered most of the unanswered questions....

[UConn James]

agreed that Hurley was brought (or summoned) to the Island from the beginning, just not sure exactly what the touches mean. Sawyer and Kate were visited/touched when they were very young, some 30 years before they got on the flight. While Jack wasnt touched until he was an adult. And Sayid and Hurley not touched until after they had already left once.

 

Also, did we ever see any continuation of the scene when Juliet was a child and her parents told her about their divorce? That whole scene seemed out of place to me. especially because Juliet is older than I am, but that scene seemed to be set in the early 90s (?). I dont get it.

 

I, too, was half expecting for a scene early this season/in the premiere to show Jacob touching her after she ran out of the house. Wasn't meant to be.

 

I think the point they were making in that S5 finale was that Juliet hadn't been touched. And so, she did not have that special kind of protection that the candidates had. But, they did give her the coffee / go Dutch lines right at the end that foreshadowed the Sideways.

 

It was also interesting that she had the Sideways parallel of un-plugging the machine to get the Apollo bar, that unexpectedly turned off the lights in the whole corridor. An obvious allusion to unplugging the Source which shut down the island.

 

-----

 

While driving today, I got to thinking about Isaac (the faith healer that Bernard took Rose to in OZ). From what he said (and from what Mother said), we took it as meaning that locale had the same or similar works as the Island, and that there were others located throughout the world. Just like the Island Source had spots around the periphery, there were access points in whatever kind of pattern (I would imagine, kind of like a wheel hub shape, judging from the map of the Dharma stations). Isaac seemed to have commercialized his spot, as he was charging $10K to see Rose. As I wrote before, tho, the Island may be special even among these b/c it is where the "cork" on Hell is... unless these other spots have similar accesses as well.