Koufax

I agree with this, but I definitely think this year was 9-7 talent (but not 10-6, and not a playoff team without things going well and getting some luck). This was the first year that he truly underachieved. But it is hard to say, because as frustrating as moments were, if JP does not fumble against NYJ and if we don't watch the bad guys nail a 56 yard field goal followed by us missing a 47 yarder (yes, it should have been closer, etc) we are that 9-7 team. A couple of other points: 1) I would love to see blitzing schemes, etc, but that isn't going to happen under DJ. What is going to happen is getting AS healthy for a whole season (if you look back carefully that is one of the biggest turning points for our team), and getting another good end to push Denney and Kelsey down the depth chart, possibly our #1 pick. 2) I think that DJ needs to stay away from the offense, and right now that means Turk stepping up and learning. I think these guys are smart enough to learn from mistakes, and Turk could grow, but that might be too optimistic. 3) I think our D is better than people realize and will likely be more talented and more healthy next season. 4) I think our O Talent is there. Add in a tight end, upgrade center, a year of experience (most of our players are on the upside of their careers), and most importantly better play calling and schemes. This is our biggest deficiency and problem. I think it can get a lot better with DJ back by him keeping hands off and getting better OC performance, but I'm really not sure, have not been impressed with Turk, and hope they can sit down and get that fixed since they aren't getting us a different and better OC.

I am somewhat disappointed with some of the good coaches out there and three straight 7-9 season. That being said I think this team is better than most people think, and DJ is a good coach IF (and this is a big IF) he can have a great offensive coordinator. Hopefully Turk can make some strides and keep DJ from calling Losman rollouts to throw away games. I'm an eternal optimist (hence a Bills fans despite having not lived in Buffalo since I was six, and since having lived in bandwagon friendly cities that have played in Super Bowls recently), but if Dick is involved in offensive decision making, playcalling, etc. things will likely not get much better, but if Turk can step up and grow in his second season and they can learn from their mistakes, then I think things can work better. The reason I am happy that they kept DJ is I think that they would not have replaced him with one of the great coaches out there, and instead would have started a rebuilding with an unproven coach and that wouldn't be much better. I have liked our defense, and think with better personnel at LB and DE it will be better next year, and I think Trent will grow, our receivers are all on the upswing part of their career, and our two backs are outstanding. Some smart play calling and a good draft, and I think we are the playoff team we hoped for this year (but realistically, I don't think we were ever more than a 9-7 team this year).

What? You would rather lose for draft position? We would have taken Whitner at 9 or 10 too Always always always value any win (much less a road win against a first place team fighting for their lives) shared among the 35 guys coming back next year than a couple of slots in the draft roll of the dice imperfect science. I know we all would have rather had Peppers than Mike Williams, but that is almost never the case, and even those "Reggie Bush Bowls" don't work out as planned and are never worth losing. Winning matters, I am mad we didn't win today which would have been "meaningless" in your eyes as well. Can't lose your way to the Super Bowl...ask the Lions...

Okay, so for starters, we are all rooting for the Bills to beat the Patriots and improve to 8-8. Anybody who would rather see a loss for draft position is a loser and I don't want to talk to anyway. But with our outcome having our finish between 7-9 and 8-8, there are 9 teams to finish worse than us no matter what who will draft 1-9: DET, STL, KC, CIN, SEA, OAK, JAX, CLE, GB There are 15 teams who will finish better than us and will draft 18-32: TEN, NYG, PIT, IND, CAR, ATL, MIA, NWE, BAL, NYJ, DAL, MIN, TAM, PHI, CHI And we are left in 10 through 17 along with the following teams: SF 6-9 HOU 7-8 SD 7-8 Bills 7-8 DEN 8-7 WAS 8-7 ARI 8-7 NO 8-7 It would be great if as many of these teams could have results beneficial to the Bills as possible. Amazingly they are just about all head to head, so it is hard to know who to root for without knowing our result. And the math for Strength of Schedule is a little too much for me, so I'm not sure which tie breakers are up in the air. Games in question: CHI @ HOU - Root for HOU CAR @ NO - Root for New Orleans SEA @ ARI - Root for Arizona WAS @ SF - Late game, if we win root for WAS, if we lose root for SF DEN @ SD - Late game, if we lose root for DEN, if we win not sure Okay, all that for not much, but hopefully others will be able to add things and we can know what else to look for throughout next Sunday. But above all else, GO BILLS! Let's beat that Pats* and finish the season on a big winning note with two big wins against two playoff caliber teams playing with their seasons on the lines. Those victories shared among the 35+ Bills who will be back next year are worth a ton more than draft position. Edit: Update for CHI-GB result.

As I feel obliged to say every time I hear something like this: winning always comes before draft order. The experience of winning another game for the 35 players who will come back matters more than a few slots in the draft crap shoot. So don't apologize for feeling good about a win. Our organization should. Go Bills

I don't think April is the answer, and I think our special teams would pay from his lack of focus. I either want us to get a better HC who is proven, which I think unlikely, or to probably stick with Dick (gulp) and get a better OC.

Guys, we are the Buffalo Bills at (hopefully) the end of a long down cycle of losing and being an embarassing also ran. I am confident and ever optimistic that we can turn it around and that we can make the playoffs next year, but we are NOT a place that can currently attract the premier level of free agents. And this is probably good, because relative to our total team, the big money guys don't necessarily make sense (Dockery...glad to have him, but we overpaid for the third best guard on the market). We need to build a playoff team using free agency for smart acquisitions of underrated good football players to go with our core talent. But I am still optimistic and think we have fewer holes than it seems, have a lot of players on the upside of their career, and that adding a DE and a TE along with any general improvements we can do, and fixing the coaching situation is enough. Maybe in five years we can be a team to attract premier free agents, but I think we are not now, and we can build a winner just the same.

There is a San Diego Bills Backers home? Why didn't anybody tell me this before I am so demoralized that I decide I need an emotional break until Ralph "sells" the team...

The question I have is who would have the biggest positive impact on this team in a dream world: Bill Bellichick Peyton Manning Albert Haynesworth Julius Peppers Someone else? Which one role and one person do you think is the place where upgrading to the best on the planet would make a biggest difference. In my minds it is obviously Head Coach. But Alas, I don't think it matters much if we fire DJ, because I think the current management would be very bad at finding a better replacement, and I don't think change for change's sake will help.

What is the 2008 terminology for what would have at one time been affirmed with "Word" or "Hell Yeah" that I can say to agree completely without seeming uncool? I completely agree with The Dean here, I actually like DJ a lot (and often even JP the person how he stands up), but I don't think he should be our head coach any more.

Exactly. I watched that replay 20 times. Other than wondering why Peters decided to block nobody, and let the sacker run right around him despite having no responsibility on the interior and touching no one, what is so hard is that forget presence or awareness...JP AFTER he feels the arms around him instead of securing the ball, his hands go forward in a two hand flipping motion. Watch the play again and let me know why that action makes any sense whatsoever in anything other than a final play seven lateral desperation. When arms are wrapping around you from behind, you pull the ball in and hold it. Oh well, we knew JP was JP going into this, but Jauron sank to new lows and although I know it won't happen, he should be fired in week. Let's at least beat the Broncos so that we can get to our usual 7-9 suckdom and set up a cool Chargers-Broncos final weekend game.

If JP played for Boston College in the 80s: checkdown against U of Miami then in the press conference "which play are you talking about? If you are talking about the last one, I think they were in prevent, we had Lee running a go along with six other players, and I just didn't see an opening. Coach tells us to run through our progression, and I saw Jackson in the flat" Why can't we throw deep to Evans once in a two minute situation? I'd rather have an incompletion or even a deep INT than watch Royal 7 yards downfield as time slowly expires with no points.

Pretty easy one for me. I have always disliked the Pats and Fish more than the Jets, I like Favre, but most importantly: "According to NFL.com, the selection would turn into a third-rounder if Favre plays in 50 percent of the plays this season, a second-rounder if he plays in 70 percent and the Jets make the playoffs, or a first-round pick if he plays in 80 percent and the Jets make it to the Super Bowl." I would rather see a 2nd or even 1st rounder leave the division (and the conference) than watch the Fish turn around from 1-15 when we can't get unstuck from 7-9, or what Bellichick get annointed as more of a genius for winning without Brady. So go Jets, starting NEXT week. Go Bills.

6-10 will get the stench of losing and not knowing how to win games a little deeper into the skin of the many young players who will be returning. I'm sure as hell hoping we finish 9-7 and pick 18th or so, but if we lose another game I will hope for 8-8, and if another 7-9. Winning football games is much more important than a draft spot or two.

It is win 10 since that is what the Bills haven't done in that period, and it is lose 12 because that is what the Bills hadn't done. So if they had been 6-10 instead of 5-11 I would have done this differently. I do not consider 5-11 fine and 4-12 not so, they both suck. But I wanted to see based on the Bills not having a top pick since Mike Williams in this range, what other teams had stayed in that range. So other than the fact that five wins keeps you out of top five picks and 10 wins are needed for the playoffs (with some exceptions), the range was just taking the Bills range. But yes, this analysis was showing how the Bills have been unusually consistent pretty bad team, while most teams in a similar period experience highs and lows. I am certainly not saying that is a good thing, and in fact I think it is pretty rotten, and likely represents some organizational flaws which are again pretty obvious to us all. Just as I line up for "7-9 again, if we can pull an upset somewhere" I realize how that is probably more frustrating to me as a Bills fan than a 3-13 season building into a 10-6 season down to a 7-9 season up to an 11-5 season or whatever...the runs most other teams have had in this period.

We are not that bad. We are just stuck in average-slightly below average and don't really seem to have the ability to get out of it. Since the 3-13 2001 and the move to four divisions, we have won between 5 and 9 games each year, never one of the leagues worst teams (1-4 wins) never double digit wins and a playoff spot. Now you all knew that part already, but do you know that in that time: The only teams not to have at least one 10 win season: (5) BILLS, Texans, Vikings, Lions, Cardinals (Vikings and Cardinals could get there this year) The Vikings won a playoff game at 8-8 in 2004. The Cardinals end their longer drought this year, and the Lions and Texans are the two most pathetic teams in football this decade. AND the only teams to not have at least one 12 loss season: (13) BILLS, Pats, Steelers, Ravens, Indy, Denver, Jags, Eagles, Redskins, Cowboys, Vikings, Panthers, Seahawks (Jags and Seahawks could get there this season) 8 of the 13 have appeared in a super bowl in the last 10 years (expanded slightly for Denver and Baltimore). That leaves BILLS, Jags, Redskins, Cowboys, Vikings as the only five to not appear in a recent super bowl despite not having a 12 loss season. So the two most mediocre teams over the last seven years are the Bills and Vikings. No other team failed both to win 10 games and avoided every losing 12 games. We win the tie-breaker because they won a playoff game (albeit with an embarassing 8-8 to get there), so we are not terrible. We are consistently mediocre, and that tends to feel worse because it keeps you believing at times. This is a league of turnover, the ability for 1-15 teams to compete for the division the next year, and vice versa, but we are built to plug along winning just enough to keep from cleaning house, but not enough to actually feel good about it. So next time you think we are terrible, realize that at least we could hang our hat on that...we are mediocre, and need to shake things this off season and find a way off that track.

I hope we pick at about #18. Winning a few games down the stretch for the 35+ guys coming back is worth more to the future of this team than a few spots in the draft crapshoot.

Yes, and bad moves by the owner could prevent any chance of it turning around. However the owner bringing in a new and fully empowered GM/HC (one person or two) is enough of a change to make it happen and turn things around. That new HC would turn over the coaching staff, which is relatively easy, and if empowered he could bring in quality people. I don't honestly think based on evidence that Ralph will do it and could actually pursue, pay, and empower the right person. But it can happen. Remember that the Yankees were terrible for the 80s as Steinbrenner mismanaged and interfered. Then he wised up and got empowered baseball people to make the actual decisions and the became a power again. If Ralph doesn't have a change of understanding and keeps living (as I consult my actuarial table) then it will be hard for things to turn around without dumb luck (like Jauron's 13-3 season). But maybe the old guy will look at the last couple weeks and say "Enough is enough, I want to see this team win before I go".

I would like to say again, as I repeat every time this comes up: The experience of winning an extra game spread across the 35+ players who will be back with your team the following year exceeds the value of increased draft position due to an extra loss. I think this is a universal truth, difficult to contest, and the "if we lose a couple more games we could draft as high as xth" line of reasoning sucks tremendously, and represents both a lack of understanding of football and a general loser mentality. I certainly have been frustrated with our team and want Jauron gone as soon as possible and replaced with an exceptional head coach. But I really want us to win our 7th game as soon as possible, and have a chance at an 8th win, and if we somehow manage that have a chance at a 9th win. I can't wait to see this team back in the playoffs, back in the super bowl, and most importantly winning the super bowl. Lots of things I think can be improved to help make that happen (many I worry will not be until Ralph is gone...he frankly would rather die with lots of money than accomplish something meaningful that would bring him great joy). However I do not think in this league losing any game is ever a good thing. If the right QB is available to draft I think that would be nice, but I also think that Edwards has a history of being an accurate passer with good vision and decision making, and I do not think he needs to be written off after a concussion and sophomore slump.

Cowher over Peppers in a heart beat. This team needs a great coach. I actually think our talent is heavily underrated by all of us right now. We are not getting a pass rush without Schobel and we need Hardy to grow into a good receiver (few generally have an impact at that position as a rookie, so there is more hope for him than for Roscoe) and we need a tight end and center, but I think overall the talent on our team is good, and an exceptional head coach is what we need most of all.

It would help if he is better. Change for the sake of change isn't going to do it. DJ has angered me greatly over this losing stretch, and I don't think he is a very good coach, so I am eager for him to be replaced. But there is a little step back before a step forward with a new coach and a new system, so it is crucial that our next coach be better than Jauron, not just a new face. I am very wary of a change in the shuffle of below average coaches, and hope we can find a way go get someone who will actually be very good at his job, and not just at "getting his guys to play hard".

I know this won't matter, and we have the whole beast mode thing, but on a desperation 4th and 15 completion to you, the ball is in your hands, you cannot be tackled with the ball. This has come up before, and it is common sense, football instinct/awareness, whatever. Lynch is getting swarmed and Roscoe is positioning himself for a lateral, and my beloved Marshawn holds on to the ball. While that tough grip would have been nice on his 1st half fumble play, it is unacceptable on a 4th down game on the line play. Clearly nit-picking in a day with many greater failures and disappointments, but every time I see this in a football game I leave a big red handprint on my forehead. I expect JP to dump and not actually try to throw the ball to Lee, or get out of the pocket to buy some more dime because he is, well, JP. But I want to know why Beast-mode wouldn't have that concept in his head. C'mon...where is that Berkley education? Even The-U Roscoe knew how it works.

11-5 gets us in, 9-7 doesn't. Won't be able to be sure about 10-6 ahead of time. But I'm just excited about trying to get to 7-5 and keep this talk up another week

Exactly. If you don't keep hope alive week in week out with this team, what is the point of following them closely enough to write in a forum? We play our 12th game this weekend with playoffs still a possibility. I'm not running to Vegas to put the rent money on it, but instead trying to enjoy one game at a time as deep in the season as we can go. When we finally make it back to the playoffs (this year or in the future) I will enjoy one playoff game at a time as deep in the playoffs as we can go. When we finally win a Super Bowl, then I will be really happy . The Cleveland loss really got me down a little, and made the playoff picture that much harder, but right now we have a winnable SF game that can put us at 7-5 and keep our hopes alive another week. Then we have a winnable Dolphins game that can put us at 8-5 and keep our hopes alive another week. Winning two of three at the Jets at the Broncos, and at home against the Pats isn't very likely, and 9-7 will not make the playoffs with three 7-4 teams ahead of us, but I'm not worried about those games yet. I'm excited about the 49ers and a shot at 7-5. I stick with my overall assessment I had at 0-0, 4-0, and 5-5 that this team is a 9-7 team, and anything better than that is good luck and overachievment, anything less than that is bad luck and underachievement, and 9-7 doesn't get you in the playoffs. My hope is in good luck and overachievement to end the playoff drought, otherwise having enjoyed the ride with lots of optimism getting exited about this team being more mature and better next season. So pretending we are eliminated and shouldn't delude ourselves with playoffs to me just defeats the point of rooting for a small town home town underdog which I personally enjoy a great deal. Go Bills

We are a 9-7 football team, and that is the reality that I thought when we were 4-0 and I think now that we are 5-5. That doesn't mean we are a lock to finish the season 9-7, but in my minds it means that 10-6 would be some lucky overachieving, 11-5 would be really catching the breaks, 8-8 some disappointing underachieving, and 7-9 a big disappointment. We have a young talented team that still is not ready. I am very disappointed with Trent's slide, and thought he was worse last night than the numbers indicated. But he is not as bad as he seems now, and he isn't as good as everyone wanted to believe when he was 4-0. Last night was so frustrating for me as a Bills fan, because in spite of our team's short comings, Trent's disastrous day, and everything else, we still had a chance to beat an inferior opponent at home and move to 6-4, and failed to come up with that one extra play to make it happen. Could have been: Lindell hitting the FG Trent finding Lee one time (maybe that last series). Dockery deciding to blow open a hole for Marshawn in that last series even if they were stacking the box. Corner actually brushing shoulders with the left tackle on the blitz which would have had him hit Quinn in the pocket and not whiff. In football terms, when they hit a 56 yarder and you miss a 47 yarder, you shake your head and it didn't go your way, but there are so many individual moments that could have prevented those situations from happening, and that makes it such a disappointing loss, which takes away any real playoff consideration completely (a tough road going in), and puts us in the try to win one game at a time, and add them up only after week 17. With the playoff dreams crushed (if we get to 7-5 maybe I will watch the standings a little), what matters now is playing good confident winning football and trying to win one game at a time and build this core of young talent into winners. But that should have been our approach last night when we played not to lose instead...