John from Riverside
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Posts posted by John from Riverside
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Good notes John. As you know, I'm one of the biggest EJ guys on here. He was really bad in that game. But people ignore how bad the oline was. Given how much of a kitty cat he was, would Orton have even survived that game?
There were also big drops by the Wrs. And it was sickening that Fred Jackson was the only one who stood up to Watt, who was really dirty in that game.
Bad game for sure but it could be argued that Tannehill was just as bad at Buffalo. His coaches let him play through it and grow. Our coach parlayed a 9-7 season into coaching oline at one of the lowest profile jobs in pro sports.
Sammy Watkins (who I think will be a star very quickly) was won of the culprits of dropping passes that he should have caught.......I counted at least 4
Chandler was not fighting for balls that were being thrown to him in traffic.....your TE HAS to do that!
Woods also had a throw that he had turned his head around quicker should have been a completion
EJ manuel did have some over throws here and there.......Fitzpatrick and more then he did
Me personally, I started my participation in this great thread by saying, "hey guys we're almost there, can't we just wait and see what happens?" But unfortunately that's not good enough for most people on this thread, who are on a mission to prove that the verdict is in: EJ Manuel is going to be really good because Doug Marrone.
You know Metz....every time you talk it because more clear your agenda.....
You try to twist it......but your not fooling anybody
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Isnt Jeter the one that is dating that Direct TV girl with the horse Hannah?
Dude....fistpump man
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The OL will be the biggest factor in the success of the offense, and team, this year. Let's hope Incognito can at least provide above average OG play (and if he can attain Pro Bowl form again, so much the better) and Miller is as good as he appeared.
A big factor
- While the bills attempted to run the ball a lot (and frankly too much on 1st down) they were not particulary effective at it........so they ran the ball for like 1 yard....2 yards....negative yards......and an ocassional longer run
- What we need is run blocking that actually is effective.....more consistant runs of 5 yards or more.....something that actually makes the defense adjust
- Then they need to trust their QB to be able to make throws on 1st down.......
It really is all about the O Line
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Man.... still going
OMG LOL
I spent last night going over my NFL rewind on the Texans game.....made play by play comments....then accidentally deleted the whole damn thing when i tried to submit it.......$$*$&%%%))%__$_
But anyways
There was a lot to like about EJ in that game.....the short cliffnotes
- His play was not nearly as bad when I went back and watched it
- Like most here....I was extremely upset about the Watt int
- Watt was intentionally going after EJ's knees........and Freddie AND our rookie OG both went after him for it.....but Watt is good and our coaching staff didnt do EJ ANY favors in this game
- When EJ would have a negative play....he would immediately follow it up with a positive one
- EJ made plays with his feet......he was under pressure the whole game.......right up until he threw the int at the end of the game (which by the way was obvious pass interference on Woods that was not called)
- After knowing what I know now about Orton's play......I think the should have either let EJ keep starting OR pulled him for a couple of games then put him back in
- EJ Manuel still has a chance of being the QB for this team......especially if he has a coaching staff that puts him into situations to be successfull
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This is getting ridiculously exhausting. How many ways can I say this? I am a Bills fan. I love the Bills more than is probably healthy. I am starving for good QB play. If it's EJ, great! That would be fantastic. From what I've seen however, I think it is less than likely that he develops into our franchise QB. I have no ulterior motives here guys. And I haven't given up on him. I just don't think it's probable. And guess what? Only two other people have had the balls to say that he will probably be our clear cut opening day starter in 2017. So evidently, everyone else agrees with me except the LB get ball guy and you know who.
Let me try this: What did you guys think of Bryce Brown last year? Pretty costly fumble against Kansas City huh? Couldn't get much going against the Jets or the Dolphins, right? Aha!! You HATE him. You have given up on him. You have labeled him a bust. You are telling everyone that there is no chance he ever develops into a reliable starting RB in this league. You are rooting against him. You have a predisposition against him and will be lining up with a proverbial pitchfork if he ever misses a hole.
OR do you recognize he has some great tools but he needs to get his head right and put it together? Is it fair to say that if Bryce Brown turns into a stud this year and runs wild if McCoy gets hurt that that you would be happy? Like you wouldn't root against him, right? But is it also fair to say that you kind of don't see that happening? You sure now? You sure you don't hate him? Do you want to pull out any statistics about how he ran really well behind the right guard on second down in the third quarter last year to prove to me that he's actually already quite good and I'm a jerk for even being skeptical about him? You still have the Marrone card ya know. Or you can tell me that Adrian Peterson and Jamal Charles have had bad games too.
Any of this registering?
And as far as the guy who said that only 4-5 QB's have a 50%+ chance of being their team's starting QB in two years? What?
That is a weak arguement and does not help your arguement.......
If the bills stayed with Bryce Brown as the RB of the future then I certainly would be rooting for him because he has that size, speed, weight, thing that I like.....but the fact is the bills upgraded in a major way by bringing in a durable, consistant, top 5 NFL back......and Bryce might now even make the team.
Is your arguement would we root for a top 5 QB made available in the same way would we be rooking for that player or EJ? I think you know the answer to that.
The problem is a top 5 qb will NEVER be made available that way.....because good qbs are sooooo hard to find. THe bills saw a chance to upgrade at RB in a major way and took it......Im 100 percent behind it.
That's what I proposed but this thread is composed mainly of people wanting to prove to those who are taking the wait-and-see approach that we are stupid for not seeing the light- that because Marrone was a bad coach, it should be clear that he's going to be really good. At least that is my understanding.
That is not what people are trying to tell you at all.......
Guys - what the heck happened to letting a young QB develop by learning from mistakes? Of course there will be bad games, horrible ones. That's how guys get better. Wtf?
You know its interesting that you bring that up......because I feel like to illistrates the two different philosophies of Marrone and Ryan
Geno Smith has been an absolute intereception machine.......but Ryan kept sending him back out there.....letting him figure it out........
meanwhile
You just get he sense that EJ was under strict instruction to NOT take chances....NOT turn the ball over.....dont throw it unless you absolutely see it......play safe which resulted in tentative play
I wonder if EJ (if he does get the nod) is given open orders to let that damn thing rip......interceptions be damned.......and make his mistakes
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Exclusive no, but it means you have a predisposition to look at everything he does as negative. So even if he does something good you will just think "well that's expected of him" and when he does something bad you'll grab your pitch fork and torch and start lining up the mob.
It's no different than being hopelessly optimistic about something that will fail but I'd rather look for the positives.
You said it better then I have been attempting to do it.......thanks Wiz
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And if EJ turns out to be great, Dareus and the gang will all be gone.
If your plan is to just get game manager QB's every four years from the draft, and use money elsewhere, uh, good luck. We haven't found one in 20, but we'll find two back-to-back?
Do you honestly believe that if EJ Manuel has a good season he is going to command a franchise QB contract?
While I defend him there would be NO justification in giving him that type of contract.......he needs to show consistancy of being a good QB over a period of years before justifying that......
PERHAPS......all EJ ends up being is good enough to bridge the gap of drafting the next QB.....and allowing that QB a year to hold a clipboard.
Like it or not...this is the blueprint that he bills have chosen......money going to the positions AROUND the QB
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A massive handful maybe. Probably at least 24-25.
Fair enough, but the fact that the current staff didn't draft him (although Doug Whaley certainly bet his career on him) has no influence on whether they choose him as starter. They will pick who they see as best.
Huh??
Our team (and Whaley has even come out and said this in a interview I heard) has massive money invested.....and players that will need to be paid in the future in Marcel....Gilmore....Bradham.......
Because we are not paying a Drew Breez type contract we have the money to put at other positions........we have now started extending that to the offensive side of the ball even in McCoy and Clay
1st rounders are now slotted.....and make less then franchise QB money.....this allows this all to work
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It really isn't. We both don't think he's likely to succeed and we both want to look at other options next year until proven otherwise.
I do in fact think that he is likely to succeed.......
Drafting a qb in the 1st round of next years draft is not about thinking EJ Manuel is gonna bust.....its about accumulating talent at one of the most important positions on the field
Something the bills have not done in the past and should have
Injuries happen
Because of the way our team is set up we need QBs that play on not huge franchise qb contracts while we pay money for the dominant defense we have accumulated....we CANNOT AFFORD TO PAY FRANCHISE QBS
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And you say I'm giving up on him?
How you and I feel about him Chan are entirely different animals and you know that
I know that you love to twist words....but that isnt gonna work with me
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Why would that matter? If they think he's the best guy, they make him starter. Why can't you say whether you think EJ has a better than 50% chance he will be starter
Because I dont know that for certain.....saying that I feel EJ Manuel has been handled badly in the past does not mean I have to say that he will be the starter in this upcoming season....
I mean....I certainly HOPE that he is the starter because that would mean that a coaching staff with complete lack of bias towards him felt that he had made enough progression that he should be the starter......
And I still feel that we should draft a QB high in this next upcoming draft if the opportunity to get a good one is there
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Wanting him cut or not to get a chance. He has a less than 10% chance IMO. Why would I believe that he will be successful with those odds?
You dont.....and that is why I was telling Metz
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We'll never know. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it would be blind homerism to call EJ's play excellent.
Imo
excellent play compared to what....that is the point I am trying to make.....
Excellent play compared to the best QBs of the NFL? Of course not
WHat about the other QBs of the NFL
And not just the other qbs of the NFL......but how they looked in their 2nd years?
Excellent is excellent, no sliding scale. You're throwing around words without thinking about what they mean.
If you think he did ok for a rookie or second year player or whatever you prefer then say it.
Imo
That is your definition Beer......not everyone feels the same way about that.
And I dont think he did ok for a rookie or 2nd year player....I think he did excellent (in that game) for a rookie or 2nd year player
And I feel that there is in fact a sliding scale
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Dude no one, including FireChan, has given up on EJ completely. PLEASE stop putting words in everyone's mouths. Do you understand that there is a difference between being skeptical and saying someone is completely done.
You should go back and check Firechan's posts....he plainly says he does not think EJ Manuel will succeed in the NFL....
If that isnt giving up on someone.....then what is the definiition?
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Oh here we go. My favorite EJ excuse: other quarterbacks have had bad games too. So because Joe Montana had a bad game in 1986 does that mean you think Jamarcus Russell has a better chance of staging an improbable comeback?
And fellas, I am still waiting for someone to come out and say that they believe EJ Manuel has a better than 50% chance to be the Bills' clear cut opening day starter in 2017. Because if no one will say that, then I'm not sure anyone even disagrees with me because all I've said is that I don't think he does. I don't hate him, I don't root against him, I don't think he's a bust and I don't even think it's inconceivable he wins the job this year.
I would be silly to make a prediction like that because the new coaches have no allegience to EJ at all...they didnt draft him.
Rex loves him some Tyrod Taylor.....and if he decides to with him so be it.
All other 31 QB's currently starting in the NFL.
Well....thats wonderful......lets do that then
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If you can't see the difference between EJ's performance in the Carolina game and his performance in the Chicago game, I don't know what to say.
You are basically saying "EJ sucks, but he played decently against the worst defense in the league,so he really played excellently." You are lowering your standards. That's all fine in a debate, but compared to the rest of the NFL, with QB's much better than EJ, it was not him playing excellently. That's really all there is to it.
I also enjoy how you are making the excuse that we couldn't "run the ball" yet in the Chicago game, we had almost 200 yards on the ground, including a huge one to end it on the game-winning drive. So, EJ gets the excuse that we couldn't run the ball in our best rushing game of the season, which means he played excellent? Remember when I talked about acrobatics?
Forget it....your never going to get it....carry on
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You asked what it would take for someone to say that EJ excelled over the course of a game and you got an answer. I personally don't see anything idiotic in the response. Excelling isn't just making do, being ok; whatever phraseology you want to use. Excelling is taking control IMO.
Go back and rewatch that game. This time imagine that an excellent (one who excels) NFL QB is taking snaps for the Bills. How did the game turn out in your mind?
Whoa.....just whoa.....
I think we are getting a little mixed up here in definitions.
I am not talking about what would make EJ Manuel a franchise QB for this team in my eyes
I am asking what would it take to say that EJ Manuel excelled in a GAME for the bills.......
EJ Manuel.......a player who everyone admits is an unfinished product.....a player who had his first year cut short to injury.....in all honest a player that probably should not even have played his first year and should have been behind a solid vet holding a clipboard.......
A player who had a completely unimaginative OC and a head coach who put him in some of the worse possible situations to excel........on a team that frankly could not run the ball as a ball run dominant team.......with no talent at the offensive guard position........
In his very young career.......if you have a QB that actually made plays that one the game........and did lead them to a WIN in overtime (a pressure situation) on the road.......
I keep hear "as other QBs in the league have done".....exactly what QBs are we talking about? Manning? Brady? Ben R.? A. Rogers?
I have seen QBs that are considered franchise QBs for their team like Joe Facco, Tony Romo, etc etc that have wilted in those exact situations......
So exactly where is the bar being set for EJ Manuel in his young career? How much was he being held back by his now O line coach? Is it fair to compare in to top level QBs in the NFL at this time?
Now.....last year was last year and I dont even know if EJ Manuel starts for this team......but people need to remember just how had it is to find those QBs that go through what EJ Manuel has gone through as far as QB cultivation and succeed.....
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For me it would take him winning a football game. That was a team win if there ever was one. He played the role of game manager effectively in that game. That is not excelling. You know how sometimes in hockey a team gets outshot 45-20 but the goalie stands on his head and they steal one 2-1? That is excelling. The closest he came to what I would call winning them a football game was the Carolina game in 2013.
So he is not excelling unless he puts the team on his back.....with everyone sucking around him.......and wins the game all by himself
Do you realize how idiotic that sounds?
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No one in their right mind would call the Chicago game "EJ excelling." Sorry.
This is what I dont get....
What exactly in your mind would you consider "EJ Manuel Excelling"]
Im watching that game right now on NFL rewind.....
- A game on the road to start the season
- Pretty much outplayed Cutler
- He made passes when they were needed.....he made plays with his feet....
- He ran for a TD
- He threw for a TD
- He managed the team to a win in overtime.....a perfect time for a young QB to choke....but he did not
What exactly will it take for you to think EJ excelled? Is it gonna take a 300 yard 4 touchdown performance?
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Fixed that for you
All the named players were on the offensive side of the ball. Including EJ, that's 9 players that regressed on one side of the ball (assuming you don't disagree that those players regressed). Seems to be indicative of a larger coaching problem.
But yes Roman may not be silver bullet to fix the problems.
I think we may actuallly never know if Roman was the silver bullet given the upgrades to the offensive side of the ball
- Incognito is a former pro bowler........they addressed the OG position in the draft.....addition by subtraction with Pears who did not belong at OG....offensive linemen in their 2nd years
- Sammy in his second year (and injury free)
- One of the best TE's in the NFL......and the postiion further addressed with college Mackey award winner
- Top 5 NFL running back
If the team starts having offensive success.....is it the silver bullett OC or all the new quality groceries that the Pegulas bought?
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2013? Did not suck. I mean he sucked in a handful of games but overall, decent enough rookie campaign. Certainly willing to give him more time.
2014? Completely sucked. Sucked in OTA's, sucked in every last practice, sucked in the preseason, game managed decently in two games and then freaking SUCKED. If you look up the word "regression" in the dictionary you would see EJ Manuel's 2014 calendar year.
Have guys bounced back after poor second seasons? Sure. That's why I haven't labeled him a bust. I've only said that I find it less than likely that he turns it around. But I encourage people to keep telling me that I am rooting against him, calling him a bust, et al.
You do realize that this is the way of bringing along a you drafted QB....your gonna have ups and downs in QB play and your gonna have to deal with it......and if we use our 1st rounder this year (which I am a fan of) drafting another QB we will STILL have ups and downs with that QB.....in all honesty that QB probablyu shouldnt even start their first year for JUST THIS REASON
They just dont make pro ready QBs any more
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I don't hate EJ, but I do find the acrobatics to defend him amusing.
Come on now Fire Chan......own it
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What? No he didn't. I can't wait for this to be settled once and for all. But if this article helps the EJ dreamers sleep better then I guess enjoy basking in your 'blame it on Marrone' glory for a few days.
I think the "Blame it on Marrone" could be quite warranted......
But its not just QB.....QBs dont play well when OL's dont block
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How much work can you do on college QBs now John? Face it. It's a crapshot with QBs. People talk about Manuel's accuracy. One of the top QBs next year will be Connor Cook who is under a 60% passer in a 3 or 4 team conference.
Gotta let the season play out. The top QB might be a guy who's on no one's radar right now.
True....
I am talking about the model for going forward
- We are not paying a QB franchise QB money
- Because of this we are able to keep our dominant D together (and it could be truly special this year)
- But we need the QB doooooooh
- So best case scenario is one of our current QBs actually gets some consistant success to his game OR we draft a QB high next year and he turns out to be good.....and on a Russell type contract for a while
NFL exec: McCoy over Murray every time
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I certainly do hope it was a good trade for both teams because I want Kiko to succeed in this league......