Bob in STL
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Posts posted by Bob in STL
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Ostoski is another guy who I think geta bad rap. He is not a star but heck he did OK. I would take Ostroski any day over Teague. Ostroski was a classic over acheiver. He was not even drafted and yet he started at several positions
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Fair enough but another way to look at it is that in terms of what was expected of him, he was a flop. A second round pick and only 22 catches in his first 3 years with us. Bills were 10-6 in his rookie year and 8-8 in 1983 so they were not bad for his whole term here. He had one year where he was not an embarassment and that is about all you can say about him.
Byron Franklin was not a bad player at all. He took time to develop and sat on the bench behind some good WRs in Jerry Butler and Company. He had some good years, some injuries, and then he played for another team (Atlanta I think).
No way was he in the category of a Bucky Brooks or some of the others on your list.
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An opposite approach to the other thread about the best bills, lets have some fun with this one and go with "Worst Bills of the last 15 years".
My Take:
QB: Rob Johnson, Todd Collins, Billy Joe Holbert
RB: Antwain Smith, Shawn Bryson
WR: Bobby Shaw, Josh Reed, Antonio Brown, Quinn Early
FB: Cardwell Gardner
TE:
T: Mike Williams, John Fina
G: Bennie Anderson, Jamie Nails, Mike Pucillo, Corbin Lacina
C: Teague?
DE: Erik Flowers
DT:
OLB: Keith Newman, Eddie Robinson
MLB:
CB: Chris Watson, Ken Irvin
FS: Izell Reese
SS: Coy Wire
K: Norwood
P: Mohr (only because Moorman is the only other option)
ST: Watson, Charlie Rogers
HC: Greg Williams
OC: Kevin Gilbride
DC:
ST: Bruce DeHaven
Need some help!
My comments, I assume you are talking about players that started for awhile:
RB - A. Smith had some good years, especially at NE. Bryson and Linton were weak as starters.
WR - Quinn Early was decent, but we got him at the twilight of his career.
FB - I liked Garner - he was a mean sob!
OT - John Fina was a good football player. I never understood the hostility towards him? He slipped his last few years at LT but if we had more talent at OT we could have moved him to OG like they did for Joe Devlin and he would have been fine.
OT's to add - Jerry Crafts, Chris Farris -- both were putrid.
OG - Lacina had a good career with the Vikings. He was better than the crap we replaced him with. Add M. Sullivan to your list of losers.
LB - Keith Newman was decent. Eddie Robinson was over the hill as a Bill. He had a strong career in Houston. Brandon Spoon was a weak player at linebacker.
CB - Kenny Irvin was decent, he did not suck at all.
ST Bruce DeHaven was an excellent ST coach! I think this is your biggets error. Wade Phillips ruined the special teams and Wade used Bruce as a scapegoat. DeHaven is still in the league and his group is always at the top.
HC - Mularkey was worse than Williams. He had less talent and his teams did not quit on him (and I don't care for Williams by any means).
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Takeo Spikes, Kevin Everett, full season from Roscoe Parrish, Triplett, Fowler, Bowen, Peerless, and the guys chosen in the draft. Having Everett and Parrish is like having 2 extra draft choices, except they've had a year learning the system.
Add a veteran, smart coach and an explosive offensive coordinator.
Subtract Mike Williams, Fat Sam, Moulds.
Mularkey, whose play calling was horrible, with the exception of the first drives of the game....he's in Miami now. Cool.
This team will surprise some people. We are very underrated.
TC - I agree that we are on the upswing but lets face it, we have an unproven QB, many unproven players on the OL, and not much experience at DT.
I am not sure was have it in the trenches to run and stop the run.
I watch the games at Hot Shots in St. Charles. I hope to see you there.
- Bob
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What no Joe Ferguson and Joe Cribbs? They were playing the first time we made the playoffs, in '80, and actually won a playoff game, in '81, in my lifetime. Of course I was only six. My mom was so happy I thought she was gonna pee herself, cause that's what I did when I was...wait, nevermind.
The question was the past 15 years. So 1990-91 is the cutoff.
Otherwise you add Fergy, Cribbs, Butler, and a more.
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I decided to put together the top 52 Bills players of the last 15 years. Depth chart and all. Top head coach and coordinators as well. The order from best to worst. I only took each players' performance while with the Bills in consideration. Not what they did before or since. Here it goes.
QB: Kelly, Flutie, Reich
RB: Thomas, McGahee, Henry
WR: Reed, Moulds, Lofton, Price, Evans
FB: Gash
TE: McKellar, Metzalaars, Riemersma
T: Wolford, Ballard, Jennings
G: Brown, Ritcher, Davis,
C: Hull
DE: Smith, Hansen, Schobel, Jeffcoat
DT: Washington, Williams, Adams, Wright
OLB: Bennett, Talley, Paup, Spikes
MLB: Cowart, Conlan, Fletcher, Spielman
CB: Winfield, Clements, Odomes, McGee, Smith
FS: Kelso, Vincent
SS: Jones, Milloy, Smith
K: Christie
P: Moorman
ST: Tasker, Pike
HC: Levy
OC: Marchibroda
DC: Phillips
ST: April
Anyone disagree?
I gotta admit. I'm surprised! I actually came up with 10 current Bills. I hope more will arise.
Rating by value to the team and on field performance:
RB - - I would put Kenny Davis ahead of Henry and McGahee (so far)
FB - I think Garner and Mueller desrve mention
Ot - I put Fina and Parker ahead of Jennings (any day of the week)
OG - I put Richter first, then Brown, then Davis/Parker
P- Kidd and Mohr werr good and deserve mention
SS - Add Schulz
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...now is the time to put your "reputations" on the line.
I've heard the "experts" nationally, and here on TSW, bemoan the Bills' OL -- and specifically the LT position -- as in serious need of an upgrade.
I challenge anyone to list the LTs currently starting in the NFL who are demonstrably better than Mike Gandy, based upon how they played in 2005.
I have stated publicly that I believe Gandy is an above average LT, which to me is satisfactory if you don't have one of the few "studs" out there who command the megabucks salaries.
I'd like to know if anyone can prove me wrong.
Afer reading this thread, and particularly the names of the LTs listed , it is impossible for me to answer as to whether he is "above average" or even average. If he was so clearly above average then I seriously doubt would the Bills have been able to get him as a low tier free agent signing. That is not to say he doesn't have good upside either.
One thing we know is that the Bills did not seriously pursue any other potential free agent tackles other than talking to Fabini. They drafted developmental tackles. Maybe they are content with Gandy and they think he is above average?
Most likely he is an adequate (average) player and they will be looking at LTs again in the next off season, having chosen to address the defense first.
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Laying on the sarcasm pretty thick, huh.
I know that this topic has been brought up ad nauseum. We even discussed who would be the most likely owner if RW were to sell. The operative word being "sell".
I would like to hear from whomever is inheriting the team in the event that RW passes on. This isn't just some mythical, hypothetical, most likely person. This is someone that already exists. I'm sure they put some thought into the matter. What are their feelings? Do they love Buffalo? Are they out to make a quick buck?
Why do I need to know now? I'd like to pick up a new hobby on Sundays just in case.
.... so you actually think that "whomever is inheriting the team", assuming there is such a person, would be reading this forum and would be willing to share their thoughts with you? <play Twilight Zone theme here>
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Bob, my best guess at this point is that Jones will walk. Steinback needs to be re-signed and has good versatility, and will command a pretty penny. Plus, out of the blue, Jones started to make noises about how he was "underappreciated" last season. They drafted LSU OT Andrew Whitworth with their #2 pick this past April, and had him and Steinback working at LT in the minis.
They've stocked up on linemen the past two seasons who show promise - for whatever that's worth - in anticipation of defections after this season. Palmer is a nice enough QB, but his money and cap takes its toll.
I'd sure love to see the Bills get Jones, too. He's missed the odd game or part of with this or that nick, but nothing major. He's a pretty good run blocker too.
Hmmm interesting. I am always leary of the " I'm not appreciated" types but the guy is far better than any tackle we have had since Wolford and Ballard. Thanks for the update.
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Very true, and I distinctly remember the "experts" on ESPN saying that the pick was a reach, he would have been there at 20. Same bunk they said about the Whitner pick this year. The Jones pick is a great example of why you should not put much stock into the talking heads on ESPN and their vision of what is proper value in the draft.
I would love to see the Bills get Jones next season as a free agent but I expect that Cinci will lock up their franchise LT.
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Your correct but I recall that Mike-Mayer kick was not at the end of the game for the win.
The drama of the Dempsey miss added to my pain.
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With all the posts about the no-punt game, it made me remember another game at the 'Stick...
Jim drives the Bills down to the SF goal line in the closing moments of the game. Darrick Holmes takes the handoff and leaps towards what seems like a sure go-ahead score. He is met head-on and fumbles. The ball is then picked up and run back the entire length of the field for a touchdown.
What a tough loss that was...and I think it was nationally televised since I was able to see it her in the NYC area.
I'll give you two and both are against Miami.
1 -- Last year - I will always remember Moulds fighting with the coaches and quitting. I hurt to blow such a big lead.
2 -- Back in about 1978 or 79. Tom Dempsey missed a chip shot with seconds left in the 4th quarter. I was standing in the driving rain, watching, thinking that the "0 for the 1970's" losing streak was over. I expected the fans would take the field and tear down the goal posts. When he missed it hurt like hell.
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I just had a look at the depth chart at buffalobills.com, and I think on paper we look like a pretty solid team. Very good wideouts, potentially great halfback, vastly improved OL from last year, very good tight ends....obvious question at QB, but Holcomb can be good if Losman ain't ready.
On defense, i think the whole thing collapsed when Takeo got hurt, and then we lost Edwards. We've got really good corners, and I like the safety position too (imagine if Whitner is worth the high pick). The linebackers are good, although I would rather put Crowell in Posey's slot, he's more productive. The DL may turn out to be really good if McCargo is as good as they think, and Triplett pays off....we've still got Tim Anderson....the DE position is solid.
I like the coaching staff too.
I just don't know why everybody seems to think this team is doomed. This could be a fun year.
Run and stop the run.
You call the OL vastly improved .... true, but from an extremely poor level to start with. I like the changes that have been made. I would love to see a solid starting OT added to the roster. I'm not conviced we have one. Adding Royal will help.
We lack experience and depth at DT. After Triplett, a backup in Indy, we have Tim Anderson and two rookies. Stopping the run starts here. Hmmmm.
Add to that a big question mark at QB and a rookie most likely starting at SS.
I am more hopeful than optimistic at this point. I look forward to seeing the team develop and and hopeful for a strong finish.
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With the way our roster looks I don't expect us to be a legitimate contender anytime soon. Players could develop and accelerate the process but a new HC and GM almost certainly include some rebuilding. Year 3 is often looked at as the year a rebuilding team should see results. With that in mind I decided to look at our current roster to see which players would be 30 or younger three years from now (I didn't factor in the contract status of these players).
QB-J.P. Losmon, Craig Nail
RB- Willis MaGahee, Shaud Williams
WR- Lee Evans, Roscoe Parrish, Sam Aiken, Andre Davis, Josh Reed
TE- Kevin Everett
OT- Jason Peters, Mike Gandy, Greg Jerman
OG- Duke Preston, Justin Geisinger
C- Melvin Flower
DT- John McCargo, Larry Tripplet, Tim Anderson, Kyle Williams
DE- Chris Kelsey
LB- Angelo Crowell, Mario Haggan, Courtney Watson
CB- Terrance McGee, Nate Clements, Ashton Youboty, Eric King, Jabari Greer
FS- Ko Simpson, Rashad Baker
SS- Donte Whitner
It's rare to look at anybody's roster and say they'll be set in three years but what I like with this roster is the potential for depth and continuity. In three years we could have a lot of guys who will have experience starting, that could either continue being starters or turn into excellent back ups if we upgrade the talent. Then we have several units who could return a plethora of talented starters for years to come.
Thoughts?
Good info. Any way you look at it, we need to improve the talent on both lines and we need to develop a QB. If Losman, Peters, Preston, Fowler, Williams and McCargo become solid starters we are in good shape.
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I hope so!
As for Hall of Shame, how about Marcus Spriggs and Jerry Ostroski? These guys (unlike Hull and Parker) would walk away from their prone, bleeding qb after a late hit. They wouldn't even help him up.
It is one thing to suck (and oh, did these two suck), but Corey Hulsey would go after defenders after late hits. For this, he has my respect. He wasn't a good player, but he tried to do the right thing. Spriggs and Ostroski were sub-par, nonchalent disgraces to the Bills and their fans.
Drew doesn't belong in a group of shameful players. I believe that he did his best but alas, you will never stop.
I thought Ostroski was a decent player and very tough. He had a long career for a guy who started on the practice squad. He never did anything to warrent hall of shame consideration.
Spriggs was an underachiever.
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Brian Bosworth and Tony Manderich - big egos and bigger busts.
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All I know is that there was a lot of talk that Thurman Thomas wasn't a first-balloter or whatever but would get in eventually. What I don't get is that the same wasn't at least said about Moon.
The case for Thomas in the HoF is much better, by far, than that of Moon's regardless if you are a Bills fan or not.
The Thurman snub is simply residual from the Bills going 0-4 in the SB. His stats stand by themselves and he was the best football player in the group that goes in this year. Had Norwood made that kick, Thurman gets the MVP and the ring and voila ... he is in on the first ballot.
Many of the writers just seem to be missing the point as they dangle the careers of great players with their votes.
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Certain People on this board believe that because Drew Bledsoe has high career passing yardage numbers and touchdown passes he is a future Hall of Fame QB. I think that these numbers are simply a result of playing a long time and am curious if people think that longevity should put someone in the Hall of Fame?
Drew's highest season for passing yards came in 1994 when he threw for 4555 yards but had 27 interceptions comparred to only 25 touchdowns. I ask you does the td to int ratio put a damper on the passing yards for this season and possibly others?
For his career he has 244 td passes compared to 198 ints. I'm not sure how this ratio stacks up against HOFers, but if it is unfavorable does it make the amount of touchdown passes he has thrown less impressive?
Vinny Testaverde has thrown for 45252 yards in his career comparred to Drew's 43447. Vinny has 269 td passes comparred to Drew's 244. If Drew goes to the Hall of Fame shouldn't Vinny? If you argue Drew should go and Vinny Shouldn't why?
Drew seems like at best an average QB who has played for a long time. I do not want this to be a Drew versus JP conversation. I want it to be enitrely about Drew.
I think they were both excellent QBs for a time. Neither had sustained sucess and neither are HoF caliber in my opinion. There are lots of QBs with impressive stats that are not in the HoF. To me Drew and Vinny are no better than Joe Ferguson, Jim Hart, or even a Daryl Lamonica --- they are one tier below HoF.
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Talmistry.
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QB- Losman < Brady
RB- McGahee > Dillon
WR- Evans/ Price = Branch/ Brown
TE- Royal < Graham
LT- Gandy < Light
LG- Reyes > Mankins
C- Fowler < Hochstein
RG- Villareal < Neal
RT- Peters > Gorin
LE- Denney < Warren
DT- Wilfork < Triplett
RE- Schobel = Seymour
LOLB- Crowell > Brown
MLB- Fletcher = Bruschi
ROLB- Spikes > Colvin
CB- Clements > Samuel
CB- McGee > Hobbs
FS- Vincent < Wilson
SS- Whitner < Harrison
According to me the Bills have 7 players that are better than a Patriot player at that same position. The Patriots have 9 players that are better than a Patriot player at that same position. Both the teams have 3 players equal to eachother at the same position. Maybe I am a little biased, but I think that the 2006 Bills have a team that could defeat the Patsies!
My changes are mostly with the OL and DL and I think the Pats are better almost to the man:
LG- Reyes < Mankins (this guy is a future Pro Bowler)
RT- Peters < Gorin (Peters has more upside but not there yet)
LE- Denney < Warren
DT- Wilfork > Triplett (Wolfork can dominate)
RE- Schobel < Seymour (Seymour is an impact player)
ROLB- Spikes > Colvin (maybe - depends on injury recovery)
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Pro Bowl or atleast worthy of the pro bowl by the third year seems reasonable for a pick this high.
He needs to show great toughness and instinct in run support, and be able to cover slot WR's and Te's well enough to warrant Qb's not taking advantage of a matchup with him. He seems like a real character guy so hopefully he will show some leadership by year 3 as well.
If only it were that easy. Being a top 10 pick does not always translate into a Pro Bowl player and some of the Pro Bowl selections have more to do with hype and popularity rather than on the field play. Daryl Talley had a hard time making the Pro Bowl. If Whitner plays with the impact of Talley then I am happy.
If he is a leader, a strong starter, and a play maker you would expect the pro-bowls to come.
What might be more relevant is how good is he compared to other alleged top 10 prospects that we passed on such as Lienart, Ngata, and and Bunkley.
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Wade Phillips wasn't a great coach either, except for defense. Butler did a better job of finding players earlier in his career than he did towards the end. For most of Butler's career, the Bills had a higher talent level than the bulk of TD's career. However, the talent level on the Bills died down towards the end of the Butler era.
A key difference between the two GMs is that Butler did a much better job than TD of keeping his players in Buffalo. So the success stories Butler had early on helped him achieve wins throughout his tenure. Meanwhile, TD released or failed to re-sign players such as Antowain Smith, Antowain Winfield, Jonas Jennings, and others while these players generally had years of good football in front of them. Because TD got rid of talent at a faster pace than Butler, he had to acquire talent at a faster pace to achieve the same results Butler did. Obviously, TD failed to do this.
The continuity Butler helped build allowed players to get the most out of their athletic ability. Take the left side of the Bills' line: for years it was manned by Fina and Brown. Any offensive lineman will tell you continuity is critical to success. TD chose to build his lines largely through older free agents such as Villarrial and Teague. Because older free agents seldom last more than a few years, it's a lot tougher to build any kind of continuity this way. This strategy's failure was evident on the field.
I'll grant that Butler made a mess of the salary cap; and was too willing to vastly overpay aging veterans to achieve continuity. But as bad as Butler's salary cap mistakes were, TD's errors in talent evaluation and talent retention were far worse.
Agreed. Many of Butlers players that were purge by TD for salary cap reasons went to other teams and were productive. Can we say that abpout TDs players?
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Personally, I don't give a sh-- if his heart rubs off on the team. I care more about his attitude about it being "Buffalo Bills football."
I mean, after 6 years of being the 49ers(WCO)-Titans-Broncos-Patriots-Steelers, it would be nice to get back to being ourselves rather than a copycat bastardized amalgum.
I totally agree. Lets be good like the Bills of the 90's.
When Gregg-o came to town he and TD had the attitude that Buffalo fans didn't know what good football was. The Bills of the 90's owned the Oilers and the Steelers. All of a sudden we are playing their style. I hated that.
Worst Bills of the last 15 years
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
For most of his career John Fina was good. I agree that he lost a step in last two years and it took a toll on his play. The Bills should have moved Fina to Guard. The same thing happend to Joe Devli. He was moved to guard when he lost a step and could not play tackle. The difference is that Develin finished his career with Marv, and Fina with Gregggggg, who was clueless about offense.