Bob in STL
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Posts posted by Bob in STL
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Does anyone think Bennett has a shot at the Hall of Fame?
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Anyone remember the when he was drafted and all the draftniks were proclaiming he was another bungalled pick. Way to early for him, the Bengals have screwed up the draft again. Yet everytime the Bengals are mentioned on radio or TV, not that they are (Uhhm) contenders, they are talking about this guy in reference to their offensive line.
Just goes to show you that there is hope for Whitner and McCargo to show the experts they are wrong.
That is the first thing I thought of when i saw this signing
Yes, I remember that very clearly. Jones was thought to be one tier below Fat Mike and McKinnie. He was projected to be a late first rounder. They alll said the Bengals "reached" by picking him were they did. It's now four years later and Jones is clearly the best tackle in that draft, and it is not even close. The clowns on ESPN complained about "value" on that pick. That may have been the first time I heard them really harp on value. Kiper the rest of those guys are entertainers, not scouts.
Of course there is hope for Whitner and McCargo. If they are good players then the picks are good picks. That is all there is to it. There is no realistic metric to measure "value" on the day of the draft because no one can predict the future.
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That is very unfair. Are you kidding me? The issue is the context of the question when Ralph answered "too complex". "Too complex" could have meant we need more time to review it and come to a consensus and not that it is over his head. That is how I understood the reports. The press was shameful in their treatment of Ralph.
By the way, most of these owners could not understand this information on their own without first having their lawyers read it and interpret it for them. This could have taken days or weeks to sort out. Want proof? It is now starting to surface.
If anything, this shows that Ralph is sharper than most of them. Isn't time that our society assign proper value to the aged? Hopefully that will be a lesson learned from this whole mess.
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I disagree with all of these names.
Moorman - known as one of ther top punters in the league today.
Flutie - Gets more publicity as a backup than most starters; his Hail Mary pass will live forever.
Reich - Forever known for "the comeback"!
Ritcher - Was under rated for many years but is known in Buffalo as a Wall of Fame guy
Bill Simpson - He had pro-bowl credentials as a LA Ram and played less than 2 full years as a Buffalo Bill; he fell down in the San Deigo playoff game loss and that play cost us the game. How about a guy like Joe Devlin?
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If you had a choice of putting a roster together of Bills players in their "Bills" prime from the last 15 years what would your roster look like...
Mine would go like this (I am going off memory here so be kind, I may have left someone out)
QB Jim Kelly
HB Thurman Thomas, McGahee would back him up.
FB Sam Gash
WR Andre Reed
WR Eric Moulds
WR Lee Evans
TE Keith McKellar (slim pickings, I know there was Pete but he was more of a third tackle who got the tough catch and fell down)
OT Will Wolford
OG Ruben Brown
C Kent Hull
OG Jim Richter
OT Howard Ballard
DE Bruce Smith
DT Ted Washinton
DT Pat Williams
DE Aaron Schobel
OLB Cornelius Bennett
ILB London Fletcher
ILB Sam Cowart
OLB Takeo Spikes (would also work in Bryce Paup on passing downs)
CB Antoine Winfield
CB Nate Odomes
SS Henry Jones- Soon to be Whitner
FS Troy Vincent (he has not really done enough to deserve this yet but I am confident he will in the next couple years. This was a hard one to pick. Kelso was up there but I nevver liked how he lined up 30 yards off the ball and "tackled gently" It will be something if Ko Simpson can change this drought.
K Steve Christie
P Brian Moorman
KR Terrance McGee
FS should be Kelso. He was a good FS in his prime and played many seasons. Forget the Gazoo helmet. He was 100 times tougher than most people his size.
TE should be Pete Metzellars. Best blocker in the league and he had good recieving numbers. Unfortunately for McKeller, his career was cut short.
ST - Tasker has to be there.
DE - Phil Hansen deserves a mention.
ILB - What about the guy from Ohio State?
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Was the room you were locked in padded?
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My main problem with the Whitner pick is that I think that #8 is too high to pick a safety. I would say that even if Whitner ends up being a very solid player that Marv is not vindicated. My reason for saying is that many good safeties are found in the mid to late round of the draft. Rodney Harrison was a fifth round pick, John Lynch was a third round pick. The point being that someone with equal talent to Whitner could have been found later. I would say Whitner will have to be voted all pro a few times in his career and be in several Pro Bowls for Marv to be vindicated just because of where he selected Whitner. I think Whitner will have to be the type of player offensive coordinators fear. It would be just like this if Marv drafted a guard or a pure full-back at #8.
I know Sean Taylor and Roy Willliams were drafted around the same place as Whitner; however Whitner does not possess the same size as those two players. I think you grade Williams and Taylor higher if the talent is equal to Whitner based on the size.
Please Someone convince me this was a good pick. I liked what Coy Wire said in the Real Football 360 interview about the type of players Marv has been bringing in.
There are hundreds of threads, dating back to the day of the draft and many week past, that cover this topic ad nauseum.
Bottom line -- If he turns out to be a star player then it is a good pic, no matter what round, not matter what position. The whole ESPN "value" rating is just bizzare.
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My Gary Anderson theory:
1982, the year we drafted GAry Anderson to be our PK, there was a rookie deadline, if they didn't sign by then they got some sort of automatic, very cheap, contract. Anderson, who I watched practically never miss a kick in college here at SU, was picked by Buffalo who played hard ball with him on his contract knowing he had his back up against the rookie deadline wall. Reluctantly, he signed, came to camp and then proceeded to miss everything. I mean EVERTYTHING. Even xp's. He practically wiffed a few in Charlie Brown fashion.
Last cut before the season we dropped him even though he was the highest drafted kicker we ever had. We ended up starting Efren Herrera who never played again after that year. Anderson was signed immediately after we cut him by the Steelers, I think he signed the deal at the airport. If memory serves, it was well above that rookie benchmark, well above. He suddenly ends up being their starter on opening day despite his dismal preseason. He nailed 83% of his kicks in his rookie year while Efren hit only 57%.
Hmmm......Why would the Steelers sign a preseason washout rookie PK and have him start from day one with out so much as a hint of a tryout? Could it be that his agent called the Steelers when Buffalo played hard ball on the contract and set it all up with Gary missing all those easy kicks on purpose?
Bad enough but it gets worse: After Herrera went back to selling insurance, we messed around for a few years with Joe Danelo as our kicker until, in 1985, we signed none other than Scott Norwood. The rest is history.
Ralph's cheapness, at least in those days anyway, resulted, eventually, in Scott Norwood lining up that 47 yarder for the title when it would otherwise have been Gary Anderson, the most accurate kicker in NFL history. Screwing a 6th round rookie kicker out of a few samolians cost us a freaking Super Bowl title.
The irony, the agony, the paranoia.
Just a theory.
Anderson missed every kick in the preseason. He was awful. The Steelers lucked out as Anderson had a long and productive career. The Steelers had to get him for less $$ off of waivers than we were offering. Contract or no contract if Anderson missed those kicks on purpose then he is a bigger puss than I thought.
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Jim Overdorf handles the contracts and the cap. He had this role for Donahoe as well and he is quite astute.
Everything must be cleared through Marv and Ralph but I would think Marv defers to Overdorf on these things.
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Fina was a good tackle, but his last two years here were beyond horrible. I remember seeing him, over and over again, just stand there and watch a DE run around him to the QB. It was unbelievable. He would stand there with his hands up like he was going to block, and then just turn his body and follow the player as he ran around him.
I don't know if it was injury or what, but those last two years were examples of the worst OT play I remember seeing.
For most of his career John Fina was good. I agree that he lost a step in last two years and it took a toll on his play. The Bills should have moved Fina to Guard. The same thing happend to Joe Devli. He was moved to guard when he lost a step and could not play tackle. The difference is that Develin finished his career with Marv, and Fina with Gregggggg, who was clueless about offense.
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Ostoski is another guy who I think geta bad rap. He is not a star but heck he did OK. I would take Ostroski any day over Teague. Ostroski was a classic over acheiver. He was not even drafted and yet he started at several positions
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Fair enough but another way to look at it is that in terms of what was expected of him, he was a flop. A second round pick and only 22 catches in his first 3 years with us. Bills were 10-6 in his rookie year and 8-8 in 1983 so they were not bad for his whole term here. He had one year where he was not an embarassment and that is about all you can say about him.
Byron Franklin was not a bad player at all. He took time to develop and sat on the bench behind some good WRs in Jerry Butler and Company. He had some good years, some injuries, and then he played for another team (Atlanta I think).
No way was he in the category of a Bucky Brooks or some of the others on your list.
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An opposite approach to the other thread about the best bills, lets have some fun with this one and go with "Worst Bills of the last 15 years".
My Take:
QB: Rob Johnson, Todd Collins, Billy Joe Holbert
RB: Antwain Smith, Shawn Bryson
WR: Bobby Shaw, Josh Reed, Antonio Brown, Quinn Early
FB: Cardwell Gardner
TE:
T: Mike Williams, John Fina
G: Bennie Anderson, Jamie Nails, Mike Pucillo, Corbin Lacina
C: Teague?
DE: Erik Flowers
DT:
OLB: Keith Newman, Eddie Robinson
MLB:
CB: Chris Watson, Ken Irvin
FS: Izell Reese
SS: Coy Wire
K: Norwood
P: Mohr (only because Moorman is the only other option)
ST: Watson, Charlie Rogers
HC: Greg Williams
OC: Kevin Gilbride
DC:
ST: Bruce DeHaven
Need some help!
My comments, I assume you are talking about players that started for awhile:
RB - A. Smith had some good years, especially at NE. Bryson and Linton were weak as starters.
WR - Quinn Early was decent, but we got him at the twilight of his career.
FB - I liked Garner - he was a mean sob!
OT - John Fina was a good football player. I never understood the hostility towards him? He slipped his last few years at LT but if we had more talent at OT we could have moved him to OG like they did for Joe Devlin and he would have been fine.
OT's to add - Jerry Crafts, Chris Farris -- both were putrid.
OG - Lacina had a good career with the Vikings. He was better than the crap we replaced him with. Add M. Sullivan to your list of losers.
LB - Keith Newman was decent. Eddie Robinson was over the hill as a Bill. He had a strong career in Houston. Brandon Spoon was a weak player at linebacker.
CB - Kenny Irvin was decent, he did not suck at all.
ST Bruce DeHaven was an excellent ST coach! I think this is your biggets error. Wade Phillips ruined the special teams and Wade used Bruce as a scapegoat. DeHaven is still in the league and his group is always at the top.
HC - Mularkey was worse than Williams. He had less talent and his teams did not quit on him (and I don't care for Williams by any means).
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Takeo Spikes, Kevin Everett, full season from Roscoe Parrish, Triplett, Fowler, Bowen, Peerless, and the guys chosen in the draft. Having Everett and Parrish is like having 2 extra draft choices, except they've had a year learning the system.
Add a veteran, smart coach and an explosive offensive coordinator.
Subtract Mike Williams, Fat Sam, Moulds.
Mularkey, whose play calling was horrible, with the exception of the first drives of the game....he's in Miami now. Cool.
This team will surprise some people. We are very underrated.
TC - I agree that we are on the upswing but lets face it, we have an unproven QB, many unproven players on the OL, and not much experience at DT.
I am not sure was have it in the trenches to run and stop the run.
I watch the games at Hot Shots in St. Charles. I hope to see you there.
- Bob
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What no Joe Ferguson and Joe Cribbs? They were playing the first time we made the playoffs, in '80, and actually won a playoff game, in '81, in my lifetime. Of course I was only six. My mom was so happy I thought she was gonna pee herself, cause that's what I did when I was...wait, nevermind.
The question was the past 15 years. So 1990-91 is the cutoff.
Otherwise you add Fergy, Cribbs, Butler, and a more.
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I decided to put together the top 52 Bills players of the last 15 years. Depth chart and all. Top head coach and coordinators as well. The order from best to worst. I only took each players' performance while with the Bills in consideration. Not what they did before or since. Here it goes.
QB: Kelly, Flutie, Reich
RB: Thomas, McGahee, Henry
WR: Reed, Moulds, Lofton, Price, Evans
FB: Gash
TE: McKellar, Metzalaars, Riemersma
T: Wolford, Ballard, Jennings
G: Brown, Ritcher, Davis,
C: Hull
DE: Smith, Hansen, Schobel, Jeffcoat
DT: Washington, Williams, Adams, Wright
OLB: Bennett, Talley, Paup, Spikes
MLB: Cowart, Conlan, Fletcher, Spielman
CB: Winfield, Clements, Odomes, McGee, Smith
FS: Kelso, Vincent
SS: Jones, Milloy, Smith
K: Christie
P: Moorman
ST: Tasker, Pike
HC: Levy
OC: Marchibroda
DC: Phillips
ST: April
Anyone disagree?
I gotta admit. I'm surprised! I actually came up with 10 current Bills. I hope more will arise.
Rating by value to the team and on field performance:
RB - - I would put Kenny Davis ahead of Henry and McGahee (so far)
FB - I think Garner and Mueller desrve mention
Ot - I put Fina and Parker ahead of Jennings (any day of the week)
OG - I put Richter first, then Brown, then Davis/Parker
P- Kidd and Mohr werr good and deserve mention
SS - Add Schulz
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...now is the time to put your "reputations" on the line.
I've heard the "experts" nationally, and here on TSW, bemoan the Bills' OL -- and specifically the LT position -- as in serious need of an upgrade.
I challenge anyone to list the LTs currently starting in the NFL who are demonstrably better than Mike Gandy, based upon how they played in 2005.
I have stated publicly that I believe Gandy is an above average LT, which to me is satisfactory if you don't have one of the few "studs" out there who command the megabucks salaries.
I'd like to know if anyone can prove me wrong.
Afer reading this thread, and particularly the names of the LTs listed , it is impossible for me to answer as to whether he is "above average" or even average. If he was so clearly above average then I seriously doubt would the Bills have been able to get him as a low tier free agent signing. That is not to say he doesn't have good upside either.
One thing we know is that the Bills did not seriously pursue any other potential free agent tackles other than talking to Fabini. They drafted developmental tackles. Maybe they are content with Gandy and they think he is above average?
Most likely he is an adequate (average) player and they will be looking at LTs again in the next off season, having chosen to address the defense first.
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Laying on the sarcasm pretty thick, huh.
I know that this topic has been brought up ad nauseum. We even discussed who would be the most likely owner if RW were to sell. The operative word being "sell".
I would like to hear from whomever is inheriting the team in the event that RW passes on. This isn't just some mythical, hypothetical, most likely person. This is someone that already exists. I'm sure they put some thought into the matter. What are their feelings? Do they love Buffalo? Are they out to make a quick buck?
Why do I need to know now? I'd like to pick up a new hobby on Sundays just in case.
.... so you actually think that "whomever is inheriting the team", assuming there is such a person, would be reading this forum and would be willing to share their thoughts with you? <play Twilight Zone theme here>
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Bob, my best guess at this point is that Jones will walk. Steinback needs to be re-signed and has good versatility, and will command a pretty penny. Plus, out of the blue, Jones started to make noises about how he was "underappreciated" last season. They drafted LSU OT Andrew Whitworth with their #2 pick this past April, and had him and Steinback working at LT in the minis.
They've stocked up on linemen the past two seasons who show promise - for whatever that's worth - in anticipation of defections after this season. Palmer is a nice enough QB, but his money and cap takes its toll.
I'd sure love to see the Bills get Jones, too. He's missed the odd game or part of with this or that nick, but nothing major. He's a pretty good run blocker too.
Hmmm interesting. I am always leary of the " I'm not appreciated" types but the guy is far better than any tackle we have had since Wolford and Ballard. Thanks for the update.
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Very true, and I distinctly remember the "experts" on ESPN saying that the pick was a reach, he would have been there at 20. Same bunk they said about the Whitner pick this year. The Jones pick is a great example of why you should not put much stock into the talking heads on ESPN and their vision of what is proper value in the draft.
I would love to see the Bills get Jones next season as a free agent but I expect that Cinci will lock up their franchise LT.
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Tom Donahoe and his impact.
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I'm not sure I follow all of your logic but I think TD failed because he tends to be a one man show, he does not build a cohesive organization, he does not empower his people. This flaw is why he lost the power struggle with Bill Cowher in Pittsburgh. TD's biggest error in Buffalo have to be his choices in head coaches. Both of them were bright coordinators that lacked the experience and would not challenge him.
In total hid drafts were so-so. He seemed to struggle on day 2. His use of free agency was good and he brought in some good solid vets while managing the cap. He deserves kudo's for cap managememnt and for keeping things exciting. On the flip side he did not find a QB (unless Losman develops) and he really misjudged the talent level of his offensive line acquisitions.
I am happy to see TD go. I doubt he will get another chance as a GM.