Bob in STL
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Posts posted by Bob in STL
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If JP develops then TD should get some kudos for drafting him. He should also take hits for being party to an organizational plan that handed JP the starting job after an incomplete rookie season.
Kudos should go to Jauron for making JP "just one of the guys", earn the job and earn your team mates respect. I think Levy said it right away, they are not going to treat JP like a savior and hand him a job. This is a demonstration of Coaching 101 by the current regime.
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A lot of you have made very good points here, but can we stop saying he left the team "in worse shape" than when he came in? Go through position by position and you might find 2 or three players total that were better at their position than the current player there. Again, lot's of good points, but this one is simply not true.
I honestly believe that TD left the team in worst shape and not only from a from a talent perspective. TD purged veterans to get out of cap hell so I give him a pass on the first year. Still, his autocratic management style, his choice of coaches, the termoil and in-fighting all contribute to a loss of credibility for the organization. It will take a few years to re-establish the credibility that Polian-Levy-Butler established and maintained.
I think the record speaks for itself ... no playoff games and one winning (9-7) season in 5 years.
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I am a fan from the AFL days. Guys like Otto were pioneers. They played the game when football's popularity took off and became the #1 sport in the country. Otto was one of the great players on a team with many great players. He was part of several of the NFLs legendary moments. Most of those guys made little money, especially relative to today. Otto suffers many injuries, his knees have been replaced. He lives in constant pain. He is paying the price for never missing a game in 15 years.
I think Bentley was showing class by honoring a great player. Otto's comments are harsh and disappointing. Still, I cut him some slack, for old times sake.
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I will admitt, I never hated TD as much as some.
I know about the lousy record, the lousy drafts, etc etc...in the end, I think what made him a disaster in Buffalo, on the field, was his lack of attention to the offensive line, plane and simple.
He was great at the flashy moves, and braught in some good talent. My enthusiasim for each of the last 5 years was higher than it had been in a while. It just seemed like paying equal attention to the "grunts" was beneath him. Trey Teauge, Chris Villerael, and maybe Jason Peters & Wayne Gandy were his only quality O-line signings. None are/were great, but all were serviceable... beyond that, it was one reclamation project after another. If any pay off, TD looks shrewd and smart. None did...TD looked cheap and stupid.
As divisive a figure as Drew Bledsoe has become on this board, the trade to get him was a good one. It was one of the best moves TD could make at the time. That being said, he made a crucial error in not building an O-line that could take advantage of Bledsoe's strenghts, rather than one that exposed his weaknesses.
There is no real good reason the Bills should not have made an appearence in the playoffs in 2003 or 2004. Sure, Bledsoe sucked. His football brain died after the Texas two-step that Dallas and Houston did on the horrid O-line, in consecutive weeks in 2003. His football brain was beat in.
He checked out after that Dallas game.
At that point, it seems, the franchise (ie: TD) decided that the Bills needed a new QB, not a better O-line. Maybe the cap genious figured it was cheaper to pay a first round draft pick QB, than it was to pay 5 solid O-line men. It was really arrogant of TD (and it was his choice, not Mularkeys'), to assume that JP Losman could "do no worse" than Drew Bledsoe. That move was the wrong move, at the wrong time.
I am of the opinion, those two games was where you could see Bledsoe just give up on the Bills offense. They were regressing, rather than getting better. Bledsoe followed suit. The O-line ineptitude spread throughout the offense. The effort put forth by the end of the 2003, from everyone, except possibly the much loathed Travis Henry, was embarassing.
Most of the pieces were there for this to be a good football team. TD decided to shuffle the deck again, rather than find the missing pieces.
I don't think TD is stupid, but his ego was his un-doing here. He got a reputation for being cap savy, and shrewd. That reputation went to his head.
Personally, given what has happened since his firing, I would have preferred to see TD get one more season to get things right. While I like the hiring of Jauron, I am not really sold on many of the other changes that took place this off-season. No disrespect toward Marv, I am sure he will do the best he can. I just would feel better, I think, if TD was still pulling the strings, with possibly a new head coach. It is going to be a fun season.....
GO BILLS!
One more season?
Your too kind to TD. His off the field leadership was also very poor. He signed rookie coaches because he wants ALL of the power. Worse yet, he interviewed some of the better ones and STILL didn't sign them. I can just imagine him in the war room. One Bills Drive was in a shambles when he left. He was not an effective leader. His team had no direction. Good riddance Whitey.
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why the harsh tone for "us western NY'ers"? sounds like he has a hard-on for Bills fans....and not in a good way. I mean, what were the masses in WNY supposed to do, call for RW to extend TD even further? while I don't disagree it was a pretty good draft, he acts as if TD was unceremoniously axed.
8. Buffalo. Surprise, surprise. All you western New Yorkers who kicked Tom Donahoe on his way out the door should remember the weekend of April 21-22, 2001: Nate Clements (80 games, 80 starts at corner), Aaron Schobel (75 starts as a DE), Travis Henry (3,749 rushing yards with the Bills) and Jonas Jennings (52 starts at tackle before leaving as a free agent for the Niners). Not bad.
OK, Peter. I'm remembering 4/21-22.............................oh, dear god, what have we done!!!!!!
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AkhA...cnnsi&type=lgns
TD did get us excited with the Bledsoe and Milloy signings. He brought in Spikes and Fletcher. He made good trades with Price and Henry. Infortunately his bad moves were worse than his good ones. Namely Gregg-o, Mularkey, and those powder puffs he brought in to play OL. His draft record is spotty at best, yet King looks to one year and expects us to judge him on only that. TD's record speaks for itself .. no playoff appearances and he left the team in worse shape than he found it. So who is knocking TD's door down with a GM job?
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I grew up in Buffalo. My early years were on the West Side, then the Town of Tonawanda. I went to Kenmore East, then RIT for college. I left Buffalo in 1981 because I had a nice job offer outside of NY State. I thought I would move back someday but after 5 years I was priced out of the market and go not get a job there. There are very few engineering and tech related jobs in WNY and most are entry level. My wife is from Lancaster so I go back twice a year. I miss the area and most of my family is still there. My kids love going there to. Someday I would like to return. Maybe an early retirement or a consulting postion where I work from home?
Buffalo is unique and a great area. Although the butt of some cruel joke, most outsiders like it when given the proper exposure.
The situation is complicated but WNY politics and poor leadership are the root cause for the mass exodus of jobs.
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Last I heard, the press wasn't hinting that there was dissention in the locker room last season because Fletcher was handed a starting job despite a half-hearted off-season.
There has been dissention about JP. The question is, did he push himself 100% last off-season? Either (1) no, and TD was BS'ing us last year, (2) yes, and the Sporting News is drawing the wrong conclusion about the purpose of the qb competition, or (3) yes, but ML/JD are spinning it in order to address the dissention issue. OTA attendence of other players not on the starter-bubble has nothing to do with it.
Losman worked extremely hard last year. He was in Buffalo almost the entire off season and he was attached to the hip of Sam Wyche, studying the offense, when he wasn''t on the field. JP was not sucessful for two reaons ... 1- he simply wasn't ready to be a starter in the NFL. No shame for a 2nd year QB with a shortened rookie season. 2 -- The offense, including the coaching, was very bad. He had little help.
The Sport News is printing a story, that is it, don't dig too deep. JP worked hard last year, but hard work alone will not get you respect from the veterans. Performance on the field does. Of course Losman will benefit from the competition. TD and Co were idiots to think otherwise. Thankfully, Marv knows better.
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His job to lose?
That is the first I heard of that.
He was brought in to compete. He is a more seasoned option than bringing in another rookie but he is still very raw. Nall has upside but is a long shot IMO.
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This is what it will take:
1. Losman needs to develop and be the starter
2. A great year from McGahee
3. The OL to be greatly improved
4. The defense to bounce back from a horrid 2005 -- Big years for Takeo, Shoebel, Tripplett and Clements.
5. The same strong special teams play we have enjoyed for the past few season
6. Six wins in our division
7. Win some close games for a change!!!!!
8. Some fortunate plays and calls in our favor.
9. The element of surprise
10. Winning attitude and character
Other than that, not much
I think 6-10 or 7-9 is more likely.
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Those with long memories have many players to consider. When you realize that Cookie Gilchrist was at least a 10 year veteran when he arrived in Buffalo and may have passed his peak he seems to me to have been the best all-round player I have ever seen. Fully capable of playing defense as he did in Canada, a superb pass receiver, a kicker who could kick-off and make the tackle inside the 15 yard line and, although a step slower than Jimmy Brown he, at 260 pounds laid some bone jarring hits on defenders. His three years in Buffalo saw him lead the league in scoring twice. He ran with grace, power and coordination and allowed the passing game to work since he had to be defensed.
There is some old footage of Cookie against the Jets. I love the one were he breaks a few tackles, bursts by everyone and is heading for the endzone. Instead of taking an angle to the goal line to go in untouched he notices a safety and runs straight at him. He blows him up, steps on his head, and then jogs the last few yards for the TD. Classic stuff.
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Cookie was a great football player, but he was not with the bills long enough to qualify as the best Buffalo Bill. He only played one position with us, Fullback, and that was with one of the best offensive lines we have ever had, Kemp, Bass, Dubenion and Warlick providing a really fine passing game (Kemp had one of the strongest arms in the game.) and LaMonica on the bench coming in for a spark. He was a great athelete in Canada and was the final cut for the Browns (Jim Brown beat him out.) Cookie was a character and a huge part of the early Bills history. He had a car with "Lookie, lookie, here comes Cookie" painted on it. He has a big place in my memory, but not in the top bunch for best player.
I don't think that he had the best career as a Bill either, not by a long shot. But, if your looking for the "best player" I would put him up against anybody when it comes to evualuating his ability to run, block, catch, tackle, hit, and kick. I think his impact on our offense was a major one and he helped to make it go. He was a great athelete to any standard, not just Canadian Football. He had the natural gift of size and speed in combination that would enable him to play in todays NFL standards.
Interesting ... I never heard anything about him being the last cut from Cleveland. There are conflicting stories, his is that he quit because he wanted more money, theirs is that he was too young being straight out of high school. Paul Brown may have been trying to sneak him in before the high school rule was in effect.
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Cookie was great? How great? Well he was signed out of high school by Paul Brown but argued about money and his contract. He always wanted more money, no matter what. The NFL then made a rule about recruiting high school players so he went to the CFL instead of college. Cookie was a great all around player. He was a 240 lb running back, bigger than many guards, tackles, and LB's in his time. He was fast and strong and mean. He loved to block and blow people up. He love to hurt people and he did it often. Sometimes on purpose. He could catch and run. He was the first ever 1000 yard running back in th AFL and he did it in 12 games. He was a huge character and a major loud mouth in an era when that was frowned upon. Cookie claimd he could throw better than Kemp, and maybe he could have. He played LB and FB in the CFL and was a great tackler. On top of all of that, he could and did place kick. He has not the pure runner that OJ and Thurman were. He was simply a great football player who could, and would, kick the crap out of just about anyone on the field.
By many measues of a "football player" he was the best and if you asked him he would tell you so.
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Didn't break the bank at all (which is actually a much larger bank due to the new CBA) with this signing but they did pay him a significant bonus which will count against our cap whether we cut him or not.
Bennie clearly sucked in his play last year and even worse a chunk of this was die to lack of focus which should have been noted before he signed and can be difficult to change without a personality transplant currently beyond human technology and control.
Nevertheless the cap hit means he does get a chance to redeem himself with a new attitude that improves his production.
While this is unlikely to occur, as recently as Sam Adams we saw a player with a clear attitude problem which led to him taking a vacaton half the time change his ways in conjunction with signing with the Bills, He not only made the Pro Bowl as a Bill but even TV commentators remarked the Bills were getting more play and fewer vacations out Adams than ever before.
My sense is that Anderson may well get cut, but its interesting in bb.com interview with JMac he did make a point of noting only Peters, Gandy and Villarial as returning starters by name and leaving Bennie notable by his absence as falling into let the better man win pool.
Why should they cut Bennie now? Let Reyes an Preston compete with Andersopn and beat him out for a the job. The TD way was to cut a player and give the job to another. Under the Marv regime all starters will earn their stripes.
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No one knows for sure, one way or the other. However, Detroit did take a SS in the second as did Chicago with their first pick which was in the second due to the trade with us. Joe Herne does a nice job explaining the scenario the Bills faced in this passage from an article I read recently:
"After discussions with many “close to the organization” as well as the interview with Bills director of Operations Tom Modrak, here is what REALLY happened in round 1 of the NFL draft, as it occurred in the Buffalo Bills war room.
The Bills were selecting directly behind the Oakland Raiders. The raiders selected Michael Huff. As it turns out the Bills rated Whitner more highly than Huff based more on the need at SS vs. FS. However; Huff going ahead of Buffalo made things interesting. Everyone in the Buffalo war room wanted to trade down and select Whitner at a later pick as the idea was that he would be available, that theory hinged on the belief that the Lions would select Huff at the #9 spot. When Oakland selected Huff at #7 it made that Lions selection much more uncertain. The Buffalo war room was convinced that should they trade back with Philadelphia (they wanted to move up for Broderick Bunkley) that the Lions would then select Donte Whitner at #9. That would mean that Huff would go at 7, then Bunkley at #8, and Whitner at #9…leaving Buffalo sitting at pick #14 with none of their desired prospects left on the board. So the Bills stood steadfastly at #8 and had to make a decision between Broderick Bunkley and Donte Whitner. Knowing that the draft was incredibly thin at Strong Safety and having the starting Safety spot vacated by the release of Lawyer Milloy, the Buffalo war room selected the guy that not only had incredible measurable qualities and on the field play, but also filled the teams biggest hole."
As for trading down and then back up, that is staking an awful lot on stacked variables that are out of your control. I wouldn't plan a draft on that kind of thing. Its like counting on getting a date for saturday night with the girl who is your second choice in the event your first choice cancels at the last minute without even calling her ahead of time (as someone who had to plan for every contingency just to get a date, you'll just have to trust me on that one
). Why do all that monkeying around when you can get the guy you want just by staying put?I am not saying that it would have been crazy for Levy to take the risk, trade down and see what happens, far from it. I do think however that what they did was reasonable and not the senile idiocy of a doddering octogenarian as so many others have characterized.
When the season starts and we have Whitner starting at SS rather than Coy Wire, McCargo on the line knifing into the backfield rather than Tim Anderson, Youboty instead of King in the nickel and Simpson stepping in if Vincent gets hurt, this draft won't look so bad. Afterall, we ended up with the best SS in the draft, the second best penetrating DT along with a FS and CB in the 3rd and 4th rounds that many had rated as high as late first round material. Add in the signing of that huge FA WR, Nance (what is he, 6 feet 700 inches or something like that?), maybe old Marv didn't do so very bad.
And yes, it would have looked better still with some offesive lineman but you can only fill so many holes in one draft. We are, unfortunately, in a pretty major rebuilding effort although I don't think anyone in the front office is going to admit that. Donahoe had a plan, 5 years in the making, and it failed. Marv has to pick up the pieces. If Losman can't hack it, we are looking at a three year rebuild, if he can play, maybe it'll only be two years with some improvement apparent even in year one.
Again Scraps, I am not disputing your logic at all, I just think this is a case where reasonable minds can differ. It is this kind of discussion that makes the draft so interesting to talk about. Too bad so many have to make it one of those "you're an idiot" fights.
I have heard some stories from people "close to the organization" as well and it is identical to yours. The Raiders picking Huff, and Leinart still on the board changed the dynamic. The Bills had a plan and the plan covered the many options that could have occurred, even the one that did occur. Some here suggest our GM is "too old" and "not fast enough". This is utter nonsense. Just because they used all of the alloted time prioir to the does not mean they were confused.
Bottom line is Whitner was very, very, highly rated by the staff (not just Marv -- BY THE STAFF). SS was considered a higher need than other positions of need, especially given the talent in this draft. Our staff knowingly left some draft picks on the table because their risk analysis showed that it was worth taking Whitner, they see him as a future star in this league and they see defenses changing and requiring a dominant safety. Case closed, no use talking about the guys we might have drafted with the extra picks. We don't who they would have been anyway.
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Jerry Butler was perhaps the best out of the three of them. Also Deubenion might have been up there too with Butler. Marlen Briscoe was up there as well as Haven Moses.Ahmad Rashad???Bobby Chandler??
I dont see a great deal of difference in talent between any of these receivers. They were all borderline greats. Moulds and Reed just did it for longer in eras where there were a lot more receptions to be had.
I actually think that Butler was the best from a pure natural talent perspective. He was a game breaker. Looking at the numbers, of course Reed is the great Bills WR of all time. Reed had Kelly and Co. but he made himself great. He had an amazing work ethic! Moulds is close but I take Reed in his prime over Moulds. After these three I go with Lofton, although his best years were with Green Bay. Dubenion was awesome too, way back in the 60's. These 5 are the top tier.
Second tier is Rashad and Chandler. Trading Rashad was one of the all time great Bills blunders. He wanted a $20,000 raise!
Next tier has Moses, Briscoe, and lots of others. I would NOT consider them borderline great. Moses best years were in Denver.
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The theory now is that it takes 3 years to really judge a draft class. Which means we can now judge TDs first 3 drafts (2001-2003)
2001: Still with team:
1/21 CB Nate Clements, who wants out but is locked into a Franchise Tag
2/46 DE Aaron Schobel, probably Donahoe's best selection as GM
2001: No longer with team:
2/58 RB Travis Henry, Tennesse
3/76 DT Ron Edwards, Kansas City
3/95 OT Jonas Jennings, SF
4/110 LB Brandon Spoon, Out of League/Injuried
5/144 OL Marques Sullivan, Out of League
6/178 S Tony Driver, ?
6/195 TE Dan O'Leary, ?
6/196 CB Jimmy Williams, ?
7/214 WR Reggie Germany, Out of League
7/238 DT Tyrone Robertson, ?
2001 Results: 2 out of 12 still with team. Both players still with team are solid starters, however one may not be a Bill much longer
2002: Still with team:
2/36 WR Josh Reed, backup WR
2/61 DE Ryan Denney, rotational DL selected over WR Antwaan Randel'El
3/97 S Coy Wire, Soon to be cut
6/176 CB Kevin Thomas, backup DB
2002: No longer with Bills
1/4 T Mike Williams, Jacskonville
5/139 DT Justin Bannan, Baltimore
7/215 G Mike Pucillo, ?
7/249 WR Rodney Wright, ?
7/251 RB Jarrett Ferguson, ?
7/260 LB Dominique Stevenson, ?
2002 Results: 4/10 still with team. Those 4 aren't much more than backups and one player no longer with team is one of of the biggest draft busts in team history
2003: Still with team
1/23 RB Willis McGahee, starter
2/48 DE Chris Kelsay, rotational DE
3/94 LB Angelo Crowell, backup, ST, and possible future starter
4/111 CB Terrence McGee, all around stud
4/127 WR Sam Aiken, backup
6/187 DT Lauvale Sape, fodder
7/228 LB Mario Haggan, ST player
2003: No longer with team
5/151 G Ben Sobieski, rehabbing with Jonas in SF
2003 Results: 7/8 A better than average RB, an average CB with excellent return skills, a couple backups and ST players, and one potential future starter
So in 3 years TD managed to find 13 out of 30 players worth keeping. Of those 13, only 4 were starting caliber (Clements, Schobel, McGahee, and McGee)
Good anlaysis.
Free agency has a lot to do with keeping players and it would be ineteresting to know how many players a team like New england has kept from those same three years.
I would say that 2001 was a good draft. Clements and Schoebel are very good players. Clements made a pro-bowl. Henry was very good but lacked character. Jennings was a good tackle. Edwards would be OK in a rotation if he could ever stay healthy.
I would say that 2002 was extremely poor. Williams is a huge bust, Reed a disappointment. Denney is the best of the class. Unacceptable draft.
2003 needs another year to tell but so far it could be TD's best draft. McGahee is solid back who could be a great back with a line and some players around him. McGee is a better than average at CB and is an impact player on ST. Kelsey and Crowell are contributing. Haggen and Aiken are excellent on ST.
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Damn. Never would've figured that one. You'd think a guy nearing 50 with as much football knowledge as you have wouldn't be so quick to generalize people. But I guess that just means I'd be generalizing 50-year-olds, so I'll just shut up and wait for the next knucklehead to refer to guys from the west coast as "California pretty boys."
We're not all pretty boys. Some of us are downright gorgeous.
Just joking around, I have nothing against Leinart.
I have lived in California several times myself.
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It is not a question of whether I agree with it or not.
I don't blame him at all. I'm just glad we didn't draft a weak armed California QB. If he turns out to be Tom Brady then I'll admit I was wrong.
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Rather than Grady, what about Brenston Buckner? He is available and was always known as a character guy. Maybe adding an vet like him would help out the young players.
McCargo is slated to play the same position as Triplett, at least on running downs. That leaves Tim Anderson and the rookie Williams. I would like to see the Bills add a veteran DT as a stop gap for this season. Not sure if they will carry 5 DTs on the 53 man roster.
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http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/200...ws/7177397.html
In a Hollywood bombshell with a Sin City twist, Paris Hilton and Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart went public Tuesday with their romance in Las Vegas.
While publicists for the hotel heiress were confirming her split with Greek shipping heir Stavros Niarchos, Hilton flew to Las Vegas to join Leinart's post-NFL draft party at Pure nightclub at Caesars Palace.
Leinart, 22, was the Arizona Cardinals' first-round pick in Saturday's NFL draft after a brilliant career as quarterback at the University of Southern California.
A little more than a week ago, Hilton, 25, threw a round of weekend birthday parties in Las Vegas for Niarchos.
It's not her first hookup with a high-profile athlete.
In September 2004, sparks flew between her and Chicago Bears all-pro linebacker Brian Urlacher at Light nightclub at the Bellagio. She was seen leaving the club on Urlacher's back with a broken stiletto heel in hand.
That romance fizzled a short time later.
Another California pretty boy QB thinking about everything but football.
Our rookies will be in camp learning about how to be a Buffalo Bill, they way they used to be when Marv was last here.
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Fowler is a solid player, not a star, but solid. He has held his own whenever he has played. Some players get better with age, especially offensive linemen. He is rellay starting t enter his priem so maybe maybe McNally get get him to his peak.
Teague was not a center. Doesn't have the build for it, or the strength.
If you were Marv,
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I guess it depends on what we are trading?
If we trading to get the dreaded "servicable player then I would say someone to push Tim Anderson on DT.
If your looking for an real upgrade, a solid starter for years to come, then I would love to se us upgrade the OT position right now.