MasterStrategist

I think it is a similar player....Samuel would carry a net $3m deap cap....highly unlikely he's let go.

Don't tell this to @GASabresIUFan....I've heard QB play is the differnce. All seriousness, I agree that WR production is usually system/fit/opportunity, and having a bad QB isn't going to swing the needle much. Especially for a slot WR, who does a majority of work underneath...it's a bit different for a boundary WR IMO. Moore is good depth for Shakir, when Khalil is out this offense loses ALOT. I'd trust Moore to step in, and hopefully he can add additional value in the return game (so Codrington has competition/potentially frees up a roster spot). This is a better Kj Hamler depth guy IMO

We shall see. I do know Coleman has got quicker/and alot stronger this offseason. I know someone close to his camp, he's put on 5+ lbs of muscle and has looked alot more agile according to him. Josh raves about his athletic ability and time to just get acclimated to the offense/NFl, being a very young prospect still. We always have alot of tight formations/splits, it's similar to Rams and others. I don't think that's specific to Keon or in any way, depicts his usage. They plan to have him as their alpha outside, if he hits his potential is another thing altogether

I'd disagree on the 1st part with Keon. We used him plenty outside, finished with an ADOT 15.2 yards (higher than Coop) and was used in plenty of back shoulder/50-50 type passes. He's also good on those deep over routes of using his build up speed/out leveraging others. Honestly this slot discussion- do we have stats on snaps from slot vs outside, and his production/route tree from each? He's better outside IMO, which is where my eyes tell me he got most of his work and success LY (without looking at stats).

Good conversation here. #3- It boils down to Beane thinking he has 2 vertical threats and that this offense isn't built on that aspect. Additional point, Beane sees a young core and wants that group to develop to see what he has. Shakir, Palmer (more proven commodities), then Keon and I'd Kincaid. I'm not sure Beane sees a path for our WR5 to get significant snaps barring injury. And they might like Shavers in that role. Not like our Wr5, on a game to game basis, contributed much LY. I think most importantly, I trust Beane with roster construction and evaluation- if he's not seeing a developmental guy, then I trust he made the correct decision. As you said, he's had a keen eye for those 4th-5th round underrated types...it's better not to force a pick for the sake of taking a WR. Royals was clearly the one standing out in R4, we will see if that haunts Beane in the future. And there were others, as you mentioned such as Horton. But it's quite possible those pre draft visits confirmed Beane wasn't as interested --- Troy Franklin/others come to mind in past years. If you're low on Keon, I can see your concern. That's a big piece to the puzzle this season. Im on the other hand, very optimistic about him and also Kincaid. Keon isn't going to be a speedster all of a sudden, but I believe his physicality will improve in a NFL offseason program and he'll bring more consistency/improvement in that area which is where he'll "win" routes. We shall see, but a strict vertical threat developmental guy - isn't that what we took in R7? Beane had a plan, if he misses then we criticize. Criticizing in advance seems fruitless, especially coming off a dynamic offensive season - and Beane is quick to course correct if needed (ie: Cooper trade/making a trade to improve an area of weakness)

So I think you're going back and forth with your points now: 1. Keon: we can agree to disagree. I think he's going to prove doubters wrong this season- he'll continue to get used outside exclusively 2. Palmer- agree. but he brings a downfield presence, it's not like he's Tyreek, but he will easily step up for Coopers role 3. On Palmer dictating coverage: here is where you start to cross your wires. You're main point in the draft was to get a mid round vertical player. Now you're saying Palmer isn't the coverage dictator we need- newsflash that wasn't coming in Rd 4 plus or even Rd 3 4. Strategy to defend us: yes alot of teams try to play Buffalo that way. How did that work the last 8+ games? Especially a Denver defense that was loaded? Point is, we have an offense capable of beating teams in a variety of ways. You're oversimplifying an approach, and again, newsflash you think this is a revolutionary thought on how to defend us? Did teams try and fail, yes. Biggest reason is our OL. We have a top tier OL, that unless you have an equally talented dline (like Houston did), it's hard as hell to defend everything we bring. Go ahead and take chances blitzing, it better be well timed or Josh is going to burn you one way or another. But let's not act like the top offense in the NFL is so easily defended with your suggested approach. Somehow a weird justification to why we're missing a WR to counter teams. Again, what output did we see from this offense, consistently?

Can't show a crystal ball...so we'll have to agree to disagree on Keon/Palmer abilities. Cooper was washed LY. Speaking of contested catches, that was basically what was happening. Josh wasn't leading a wide open guy downfield. So yes, Cooper brought contested catch abilityand some remarkable catches but when I say washed- his speed was non existent. Am I the only one seeing that? Their were numerous NFL coaches saying the same thing LY. So I don't get this issue with Keon. Cooper wasn't a vertical speed guy LY either.

It's been a problem because of talent- not Frazier IMO. And yes, 3rd down defense is much more important than turnovers. Getting a 3rd down stop is exactly a turnover/albeit a 40-50 yard field position. But when you have a great offense, that doesn't matter. Get the ball back, turnovers/stops on 3rd downs. For an educated fans like yourself, you seem so focused on proving our turnovers have been consistent year to year. You jumped into a conversation, point of mine about turnovers being volatile. Now in a tiredness fashion, continued to force that conversation. Again - this is simple, we couldn't save our lives to get off the field LY. Who cares we were 3rd in the NFL in defensive turnovers, when we allow teams to convert an obscene amount of 3rd downs? This team has failed to stop a nose drip in the playoffs, against Mahomes/Burrow. We need a change, and some "vertical threat" isn't holding back the offense. Palmer, Keon = your main vertical threats. Maybe a surprise contender for Wr5 emerges. But we have a talented enough offense to win a SB- can we hold a team under 30 points when it counts?

Again, why do fans ignore Palmer and Keon? You act like Beane sat on his hands. Keon was widely known to need time to develop- will he? Well we need to be patient and find out. We just invested a very early 2nd rounder last year. Then onto Palmer. This guy will separate outside and has had success downfield- he is certainly an upgrade on the corpse of Cooper. You act like we have nobody to step up. After doing all this draft research, maybe you need to look into being patient with player development? Keon will be better this year and we drafted him for that role outside.

Yes, you do need to be patient with Keon. Super young, he needed and might still need another season of development. Palmer, I disagree. He was targeted and made downfield catches LY. I think he has better speed/quickness that Coop at this point, Cooper is totally washed.

Yeah I was stating 3rd down defense in my posts...you jumped in off my "turnovers are volatile" comment. So yes, it was about all of the above...the person originally commenting to me said I didn't account for turnovers. Baseball analogy- someone who hits .230 and 35 Homers vs a .290 player who hits 20 Homers My point originally, was that our 3rd down defense isn't getting off the field. Yes we get turnovers, but more importantly to me is getting off the field sooner. Sorry, you may have missed this convo

Yeah I get what your saying...but success isn't cumulative stats. It's consistency week in and week out. We did that in 2024 on both sides of the ball, and had tremendous success. Point being two fold: 1. Defense: we haven't been consistent in. years past, game to game. And really stopping opponents and getting off the field on 3rd down is same as a turnover. We were downright horrible at 3rd down defense- which goes to the larger picture, our defense wasn't getting enough "stops" 2. Offense: coaching improved the turnover efficiency, at least in my mind I think we can be within a similar range next season All about getting off the field on defense- turnovers tell part of the story, but 3rd down defense is the key

At the end of the day, why is everyone care so much about WR? It's about production. Do we think this offense is being held back by lack of WR play? If that's the discussion, I'd say no it's not. To Beanes point, we are scoring amongst the best week in and week out. Does it matter that we use our RBs and TEs, and spread the targets? When we stop scoring, it's a problem. This is why Beane says F off, the offense is producing, the QB just won MVP, we have better weapons this year than last (simply by adding Palmer + player progression). Trying to say we aren't "keeping up with the Jones of the NFL" at WR, are exactly what Beane said: Madden/FF focused. Our team doesn't have a scoring problem, it's a defensive problem. Trying to bring in a mid round WR target, isn't moving the needle this year (as much as you did your draft homework, you're still not a professional scout/GM)

Agree 👍

Palmer can get downfield, so can Keon for 50/50 throws - they're counting on both these guys. Simple as that. Keon: 19.2 ypr, 15.2 adot Palmer: 15.0 ypr, 15.2 adot Cooper (just with Bills): 13.3 ypr, 12.6 adot We have guys, people want to throw Keon under the bus and are discounting Palmer already for some reason. Not to mention, Samuel never was fully utilized due to fighting thru injuries all season. If we want to find a 3rd guy, Ok sure. But keep in mind this offense is built around efficiency- great OL/run game, win on early downs, most importantly limit turnovers. Josh as a cannon for an arm, but I wouldn't say his deep ball accuracy is top tier (maybe some stat will prove me wrong here). But the philosophy of the offense is what it is- which is dictating who we target as FAs/Draft. If you have any issue with that, then I'd say tough luck, because it's working.

I appreciate what you're showing, but I'm not looking at total season stats. Why- because I don't care that we forced 5 TOs against Washington a couple years ago...in a blowout win. On a week to week basis: 2024: 1 game with 0 turnovers forced- remarkable. Happened to lose to Rams that game. 3+ in game: 5x, 4+: 1x 2023: 4 games without forcing a turnover: 2-1, barely beating the Gmen. 3+ in game: 4x, 4+:3x 2022: 3 games without forcing a turnover: 2-1. 3+: 3x, 4+: 1x Above is showing game to game volatility, that we were super proficient in 2024 in forcing 1+ per game. 2023 was outlier city, we had 3 games forcing 4 or more (which skewed our overall). Agree with your point on offense, our most efficient season. But we also changed O coordinators and that was a major coaching focus. Just like defense where we're coached up, same as offense this year. You think it was a coincidence that guys like Cook/skill players limited fumbles? Or Josh threw fewer INTs? These were all offseason areas of focus and Josh mentioned it numerous times during camp LY.

And you're arguing that Moore's numbers are better with improved QB play...yes, but still apples to oranges when comparing to Palmer (different system, etc). Like I said, you can't look at bad qb play in a silo. Which is exactly what you were trying to do with Palmer vs Moore stats. Doesn't make sense and you know it

Turnovers are volatile, everyone knows that. Ignore that our defense was worse than bad, at key moments LY- Rams, Chiefs, Ravens, etc. and all playoff losses have been bc we can't stop our opponent. Then look at the actual players who got snaps: Von, Rasul, Phillips, Jefferson, Elam, etc Our defensive talent, speed has been downright awful. I guess we need another WR though, so we can push our 2nd round pick from LY to #4 on the depth chart....yep, makes sense.

Bills have a talented offense too... Why do people ignore we just set records internally, one of highest scoring offenses (better than Eagles), and Josh won MVP? It's like we just finished 20th or worse as an offense --- oh wait that was our defense

I can see that line of thought, but Beane likely sees 2 key players that he has high hopes for-Kincaid and Keon. Then add in Palmer, who they just locked up (then Shakir). Competition/stacking talent is a good thing, but i think it comes down to he feels that talent gap is wider at DL and we're much more vet heavy there. I think we could see the opposite next year, but ideally we find ourselves in the situation that Palmer transitions in nicely and Kincaid/Keon take big steps forward. Then I think we can truly start to stack talent, without focusing on need. Good comments, hopefully Beane hit the DL picks-- if not, then I think he needs to figure out scouting deficiencies.

So....with the guys you just mentioned, we passed on ALL of them, multiple times. I'm sorry, but what do you know about these guys that Beane and his scouts don't? So, just because we didn't draft a 3rd/4th round WR, who likely would be sitting at WR5 on the depth chart...thats a gripe? I'm sorry, but id you're trusting NFL media analysts draft board grades over Beane, then it just shows you don't trust BB. Not saying BB is always right, but in this case, those WRs were passed over and Beane thinks he has better options in-house/possibly Elijah Moore or FA signing for depth.

That's the most overblown/misused comment around here. So much more that factors into it. I'll just leave it at that, hoping your view isn't as simplistic that you stated above

Stats don't tell the full story. Chargers were a balanced offense, Browns played from behind and needed to throw more. Moore caught a TON of short passes, good for him. Palmer was used all over the field and is thr closest thing we have to a true outside receiver. Moore is moved around, but is a shifty slot- he'd be someone I'd like "moore" if we didn't have Samuel. Not saying it would be a bad signing. He's an upgrade on our current WR5/depth, I'd trust him as a backup slot. He also brings return ability. I'm for the signing, just making the point he isnt near Palmer and is a strict depth/return type signing. There's a reason we went after Palmer and gave him a very good contract. Again, stats don't tell the story. Robert Foster also put up stats - on a horribly talent deficient WR room.. some guys get stats because someone has to. Moore isn't Foster, but he's not matching the targets if he comes here.

No disagreement. But where we are as a franchise/players on this team, the guys available at our 1st 2 picks were not moving the needle for team success- we need defensive talent. People act like we have premier talent on defense, or McD should be able to work magic with the likes of : a washed Von, Phillips, Jefferson, Rasul, Elam--- all guys with decent snaps in AfCCG. The key is: Josh+top tier OL+strong stable of RBs+solid WRs with YAC = a very successful formula for offensive success. Just like on defense, DL pressure+strong CB play= more turnovers, less points, more opportunities for Josh/offense each game. Beane has missed horribly on some DL+Cb draft picks and FA signings. But going back to the well is the right move. If we had a really good/non elite QB (like Philly IMO), then we'd be having a different conversation. We just finished with historical offense production, one of the best offenses (scoring) in entire NFL...and we have several young guys ready to take the next step + Palmer, which we need someone like Kincaid to make a big step like Khalil

Eagles did what LY, that led to a SB season? I'll give a hint...Buffalo followed suit stocking up defense.