CincyBillsFan

But the contract is almost certainly going to be CAP neutral for the 2021 season. The only way holding off on the contract results in the Bills saving $5 million next season is if Bean asks Allen to take a substantial pay cut. If that happens Allen will be joining Watson in trying to get traded. Given that this contract will likely be structured to be CAP neutral the next two seasons you have to get it done this off season. Allen is only human and if he sees his peers getting big deals over the summer while the Bills don't move on his contract we're playing with fire. But again I have all the confidence in the world that Bean gets it done this summer and Allen, the Bills and the Fans will all be happy with the outcome.

I'm not sure about this either. Even if Allen has plateaued and I believe he hasn't, there's probably going to be a big boost in the CAP after next season. Give some of these owners more money to play with combined with a potentially disgruntled Allen watching Mayfield & Jackson get big time extensions and we might have a problem. I'm very confident that Bean & the Bills will extend Allen's contract this year locking him up for the foreseeable future. I think the contract will be very CAP friendly this coming season and the Bills will get a real hometown discount.

What I saw from Allen in his first playoff game was a young QB that played very well for most of the game but struggled mightily for most of the 4th quarter. But Allen was able to get it together at the end to force the game into OT and he was one missed block from winning the game in OT. Calling out the "hero ball" was a cheap shot IMO. Watson has not been a star in this league from his first season. He showed flashes of greatness and he clearly showed that he could be a franchise QB but IMO he didn't match the early performances of Mahomes and Marino. And the fact that we disagree on this point doesn't make either one of us any more or less knowledgeable about football. It's nothing more then a difference of opinion. A bad playoff game in his second season is in indication to me that Watson was not a superstar his first two years. He as still growing into a top notch QB. And of course the same could be said about Allen. I have no trouble ranking Brady in the top 5 QB's. He just led his team to a Super Bowl championship. And for someone who self proclaims themselves a football expert are you seriously comparing how Allen did versus KC to how Brady did versus KC? You do now that transitive properties do not apply to football.

Fair enough on Allen & Watson. We're not very far apart. For me I consider BOTH who the player played for and how well they play. I will always have more passion talking about Andre Reed or Eric Moulds then I ever will about Jerry Rice. Tom Brady is the greatest QB to ever play the game but I'll never get very excited about that fact given the logo that was on his helmet for so many years. But hey, it's a big diverse world out there and we're all entitled to our own version of fandom.

I compared their first playoff game because you pointed out how "bad" Allen did in his. I think you called it "hero ball". Meanwhile you're telling us that Watson came out of the NFL womb a super star. Well he wasn't a super star in his first playoff game in his 2nd season was he? And I love your passion in defending Watson on a Bills Message Board. I don't get it but hey the passion is impressive. Oh and for the record after this last season I had Allen as my #3 QB and Watson as my #7. So where would you put them? I get you & others disagree with me here but are we really that far apart?

Are you going to tell me that the talent Watson had around him his first couple of years wasn't much better then what Herbert & Burrow had? In my rankings I have Watson at #7 and Allen at #3 - where do you have them? And are we so different that you get pissed off about it? Man it's odd that on a Bills message board you show more passion for Watson then you do for almost any Bills player.

Who is pooping on Watson? Is it because some of us have him as the 6th or 7th best QB in the NFL? That sounds more like constipation then pooping. And given that the title of this thread is Watson vs Allen how the hell are we supposed to debate the point without actually comparing the stats and play of the two QB's? And again for the record, people aren't trashing Watson in saying hat Allen is the better QB now. We agree that Watson is a great QB. We agree that Watson is a top 10 QB. How is this in any way crapping on Watson? Our point is that while Watson is a top 10 QB Allen is now a top 5 QB. And that we would not trade Allen for Watson straight up. Now I would trade Baker Mayfield for Watson straight up but that isn't the title of this thread.

Here are the stats for Allen & Watson in their fist playoff games. For both QB's their first payoff game was in their 2nd NFL season. Allen: Lost to the Texans in OT 22 - 19 Watson: Lost to the Colts 21 - 7. The score was 21 - 0 until 11 minutes left in the 4th quarter. Allen was 24/46 for 264 yards no TD's & no INT's; had 9 caries for 92 yards with 1 lost fumble; caught 1 pass for 16 yard TD; QB rating = 69.5 Total yards = 372; Total TD's = 1; Total TO's = 1 Watson was 29/49 for 235 yards 1 TD & 1 INT; had 8 - 76 yards; QB rating = 69.7 Total yards = 311; Total TD's = 1; Total TO's = 1 Allen played just as well in his first playoff game as Watson did in his. And Watson did NOT come out of the NFL womb "dominating". Mahomes came out of the NFL womb dominating. So did Burrow & Herbert who both got off to better starts then Watson did and they did it with inferior offensive talent.

On a dedicated Bills message board? I don't expect objectivity when I visit other NFL message boards. Now that doesn't mean I'm a blind partisan of the Bills and I don't view everything Bills related through rose colored glasses. The last 25 years has hardened my football soul quite a bit and I am more then capable of being critical of the Bills. But when it comes to talking about Allen, a guy who is likely to match or even exceed Jim Kelly as the greatest QB in Bills history, I'm going to be an advocate. Particularly on a Bills message board.

I am 100% certain that if next year the Bills go 4 - 12 yet Allen has the most yards & TD passes of his career all sorts of Bills fans on 2BD would be slicing and dicing the stats to show that Allen's numbers were misleading and he didn't really have a good year. The fact remains that stats in garbage time can boost a QB's numbers quite a bit. I believe Matt Stafford has been a beneficiary of this. To suggest that Watson has also benefited from this last season is not unreasonable. Now I'm not blaming Watson for the Texans going 4 - 12. He played well and was not the cause of their bad record I am saying that his numbers were inflated as a result of that bad record. And IMO when it counted with the games on the line Allen was a better QB then Watson. I do wonder whether on an Allen versus Watson thread on a Houston message board there would be as many Texan fans extolling the greatness of Allen as there are Bills fans praising Watson.

That was my thinking to. Watson is better today but not by much and if Burrow & Herbert improve as much as I think they will next year they'll be nipping at Watson's heels and costing their teams a hell of a lot less money. As an aside I fully expect Allen to make another jump next year. He has improved every year since the Senior Bowl so I feel safe in assuming he has at least one more jump left in him. Right now the odds are better that Allen will hit his highest upside then he will stall out where he is now. Last season was not a one year wonder but the continued climb of a young QB from high school to his 3rd year in the NFL. It's really quite extraordinary when you think about the progress Allen has made over that time.

Don't sleep on Joe Burrow. In fact given how cheap they are for the next two to three years I would likely take Herbert or Burrow before I would take Watson. That got me thinking what I would do if I owned a franchise and could pick my QB. First tier = Mahomes or Allen If I couldn't have one of those two: Second Tier = Burrow or Herbert.

I see a lot of question marks here but is there actually a question here?

You listed stats showing that Watson was pushing the ball down the field not that prevent defenses don't enable QB's to do that. The prevent is designed to stop the big over the top plays but often leaves the 10 - 20 yard stuff open. Completing 6 of 7 passes for 75 yards on your way to a late TD will give you a pretty decent yards per attempt. And how is saying Watson is a top 10 QB not being objective? It's not like I'm saying he sucks. I just happen to think that right now Allen is top 5 and Watson is top 10. IMO my top 5 would be: Rogers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady and Wilson. My next 7 would be: Jackson, Watson, Prescott, Herbert, Burrough, Stafford & Mayfield

We'll have to agree to disagree on the impact of Watson facing a lot more prevent coverage contributing to his stats. One thing I've noticed is that while in THEORY prevent defensive schemes force teams to check down their throws in practice you see a lot of 10 - 20 yard strikes. As for Bills fans having a chip on our shoulders with regards to Allen you're damn right we do. And is it a surprise? I've been following the NFL closely for half a century and I can't recall a QB coming into the league getting beat up on as much as Allen has. At times it was brutal and the virulence of it was unwarranted. The question of this thread is who do we think is the better QB and it came from suggestions on other threads that some fans would be willing to trade Allen for Watson straight up. Given this why should those of us who believe Allen is the better QB be gushing over Watson? I think we've been pretty clear we consider Watson a top 10 QB. We've also been clear that we wouldn't trade Allen for Watson and that Allen is the better QB.

I agree with most of what you say here including that Watson is a great QB. But I would point out that the situations you highlight go a long way towards explaining Watson's great stats. He was often playing from behind in track meet type games. There is no doubt he faced way more prevent coverage then Allen did and his numbers reflect that.

I took your suggestion up and asked one Cleveland and five Cincinnati fans if they would rather have Allen or Watson. The Browns fan & four of the five Bengals fans said they would take Allen over Watson in a heart beat. The remaining Bengal's fan said it would be a toss up and he would be happy with either. I think we may be underestimating how much Allen has moved up among non-Bills fans based on his National TV performances starting last Thanksgiving against Dallas. A common theme among those I asked was that they felt like Watson had plateaued and Allen was still improving.

Maybe Watt is one of those BS artists who talks about a higher purpose like winning a Super Bowl but in the end it's all about the Benjamin's. A lot of us have had friends who wanted to change jobs for a better work/life balance. They sounded so high minded as they looked for a new job but then when the dust settled and they took that new job the work/life balance was worse but the money was a lot better. I doubt Watt can get the money AND the Super Bowl run. Or put another way, if Watt gets the money then a team is overpaying him.

If Watson really won't play for Houston this would be a very attractive offer IMO. Three 1st round picks and one of the best RB's in the NFL.

That just comes out in the wash of the give and take around a thread that compares Allen directly with another QB. By this I mean if someone claims that Watson is better then Allen some of the responses will look like we're tearing Watson down. It's the only way to make a rational point here. For example I believe that when people throw out Watson's stats for 2020 and claim they're better then Allen's (debatable) I will counter that a lot of Watson's numbers came from going up against prevent defenses. Is that tearing Watson down or just seeing the full picture? You also can't ignore the history here where some posters have brutally attacked Allen over every mistake and then ignored every thing he was improving at. This happened a lot over Allen's first two seasons. I guess some of us thought it would stop in light of Allen's fantastic 2020 season. But it hasn't. Bottom line for me is that I think Allen is a top 3 QB and Watson is a top 10 QB. Therefore it seems crazy to me to even suggest swapping Allen for Watson.

I plead guilty but my insecurity isn't based on Allen not being a top 3 NFL QB. I'm very confident that he is. My insecurity is based on the irrational attacks on Allen by a minority of Bills fans and a large part of the national sports media since before he was even drafted. And while these attacks have lessened in the face of Allen's exceptional performance this season they're still out there lurking just under the surface. You know things like posters arguing that they would trade Watson for Allen straight up. Why even debate such a thing? We should be thanking our lucky stars that Bean saw something in Allen a lot of the experts didn't. We now have our franchise QB who is on his way to being a perennial top 3 QB in the NFL for the next decade. We should finally get that elusive Super Bowl victory with Allen under center. It's only natural that those of us who kept an open mind about Allen and saw real progress under difficult circumstances would be sensitive to criticisms popping up - particularly after the year Allen & the Bills just had. So yea we tend to jump into these sort of threads to defend our QB. The cool thing is that Allen has made that real easy to do.

Well to be fair how many TD passes did Bills receivers drop in Allen's rookie year including a potential game winner against Miami that would have given Allen a 6 - 5 record? I think you underestimate just how bad the Bills 2018 offense was and that even as a raw rookie Allen won games. And the four win argument with Watson has merit if I'm a Jets or Jags fan. The fact is that unless you have talent around Watson he can still only get you so many wins. The same is true for Allen though I think Allen gets you a couple of more wins. Either way a bad team is still a bad team with or without Watson. Frankly I hope the Jets trade the farm for Watson. It makes the Bills life in the AFC much easier. It will stunt any chance of the Jets getting better within the division and send Houston back to a full blown rebuild. Now if Miami signs Watson that;s a different story.

The other thing Allen's rookie season demonstrated was that he has that special ability to make those around him better. This is a subtle but critical aspect of a truly elite QB. When you think about guys like Foster and the numbers they put up that year it's clear that Allen has this unique talent of lifting others up. And since his rookie year is it any surprise that Beasley & Diggs each had career years and Brown went over a thousand yards? Hell Lee Smith caught a couple of TD passes. Allen is better then Watson today and that's not a knock on Watson. Allen is a top 3 NFL QB and Watson is a top 10 QB.

The Bills should make Watt an offer they can afford. No bidding war please. If Watt is going after Money then we don't need him and can't afford him. If Watt is really after a chance to compete for the Super Bowl then he knows he's going to have to take less money then he's worth. Sell Watt on the idea that the Bills are one of the few teams with a legit chance to make and win a Super Bowl next year. If Watt seems interested get the players to make a hard sell. If he signs great if not move on as there is a lot of D talent available this off season.

And of course Aikman seemed oblivious to the fact that Allen was wearing a special harness that game because of the shoulder injury he suffered two weeks earlier.