SoTier

What he said.

Bortles is a dud who just doesn't have it. Lots of first time starting QBs look like hot stuff early on before the defenses figure them out. Bortles is one. So were Ponder, Kaepernick, Foles, and Osweiler in recent years. Mark Sanchez "led" the Jests to the AFC championship game as a rookie but he still sucked. Taylor is at least competent. Bortles isn't even close to that.

With playing the Jests twice and the Carp without Tannehill, the Bills might be able to eke out 3 wins there. Maybe they can squeak out a couple of wins from among Denver, Tampa Bay, and Indie, all home games. That's an ify five wins but I'm a fool so I said 6 wins.

Sorry, Boyst, but I've seen this same kind of trash much too often over the last 17 preseasons to fall for that line. Preseason win-loss records may mean nothing, but how the team plays means everything. This Bills team didn't play well at all on offense or special teams. The starting OL is a dumpster fire on pass protection; not even Aaron Rodgers would have much success behind it. My guess is that the running game will deteriorate because defenses will regularly put 8 in the box to stop it, confident that the Bills can't pass. The defense looks good but the secondary is worrysome; Carson Wentz isn't Tom Brady, Matt Ryan, Drew Brees or Phillip Rivers. We all know that the OL just needs time to "gel", which it magically will do by Sept 10.

Oh, bull manure! The problem the team has had for years is that the FO's philosophy is a commitment to maximizing profits not winning football games, and that means keeping salaries as low as possible because that constitutes the bulk of the expenses. Over the last 15 years, since about 2002, the Bills have repeatedly shed their top DBs or WRs, usually first or second rounders and replaced them with first or second rounders in the next draft. Consequently, they don't have the draft picks to fill other personnel needs ... like OLers or LBs or QBs. When the Bills have spent big, they've spent on big names that would excite the fan base and put butts in the seats. Takeo Spikes, Terrell Owens, Mario Williams all fit that mold. So does Rex Ryan. How do you "build a team" when you consistently send the best talent you have packing? In 2017 that was Watkins, Gilmore, Woods, and Gillislee. The number of ex-Bills who have gone on to other teams and had not only personal success but helped their teams win in the playoffs is mind boggling compared to the Bills' inability to make the playoffs for the last 17 seasons. In the mid-2000s, Minnesota had one of the toughest defenses in the NFL, compliments of three Bills rejects: Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, and Pat Williams. Another Bills reject, Ruben Brown, helped the Chicago Bears make the Super Bowl. Jabari Greer has a Super Bowl ring with the Saints. Marshawn Lynch has one, too, and so does Chris Hogan. Jason Peters anchors the Philly OL at LT, has been an All Pro repeatedly, and even at his age and post-Achilles injury, is still a better LT than anybody the Bills have had since, including Cordy Glenn who is a good LT just not as good as Peters.

... and 20 straight years without making the playoffs. No, you just don't give a crap about winning in 2017 ... or 2018 or any other season.

My thought exactly. If Watkins came back to the Northeast, it would be as a Patriot.

^^^ I think this is what raises the specter of Jauron/Levy in skeptics' minds more than anything else. Jauron's offense was excruciating to watch in its boring predictability, and McDermott seems to want the same run-run-short check down pass on third down-punt style that Jauron favored.

The problem in 2016 was not the offense or the number of games individuals missed. The offense was more than adequate for the Bills to have won at least 9 games, and likely to win 10 and possibly more. The problem was the defense, which sucked monkey balls. How many opposition RBs ran for 200+ yards against the Bills D? Ajayi ran for 200+ twice and I think at least one other RB hit that mark, too! The problem in 2016 wasn't that Taylor wasn't the proverbial franchise QB or that Watkins missed games or that McCoy missed 1, it was because the defense couldn't stop anybody! Contrary to what some here think, a franchise QB doesn't help a team much if it doesn't have a defense. See the recent records of the New Orleans Saints.

Unless you're the Bills ... which they did in 2009 when they traded away All Pro LT Jason Peters.

First off, the bulk of team revenues these days come from the televison deals. The teams that are able to sell luxury boxes and seat licenses rake in really big $$$ from those sales, but that's not the Bills. Their ticket sales add modestly to their revenue. If the season tix are already sold, and most individual game tix are sold, the team already has the vast bulk of its attendance money for 2017, so trading Watkins after the first preseason game had little risk. Not re-signing Gilmore probably weakened the secondary enough so that it was unlikely the team could win 10 games and have a legitimate shot at the playoffs. Making the playoffs would have likely added to 2018 attendance but probably not all that much unless the team had a playoff win or two, too. That scenario was unlikely even with Gilmore and Watkins, so their high salaries made them expendable. Winning only 6 games rather than 8 isn't going to significantly impact 2018 season tix sales. Winning only 2 games in 2017 would likely create a drop in ticket sales, especially if the team sent established stars like Kyle Williams and Sean McCoy packing. Even drafting a first round QB might not have helped raise the numbers. The organization can't market a 2 or 3 win team as just a QB away from the playoffs. It can market a 6 win team as being a playoff contender with a shiny new high first round QB as the starter.

^^^ OP, I agree with the comparison because too many of the quotes from McDermott/Beane sound like they could have come from Jauron/Levy a decade ago ... and Russ Brandon, the man who sold off most of the Florida Marlins' talent for a fat profit for the ownership of that franchise the year after they won the World Series, remains in charge of the organization ... just as he has since the Jauron/Levy era. That he doesn't actively make all football decisions doesn't mean that he doesn't significantly influence those decisions.

Oh, I don't know ... because none of the CBs they have now are making anywhere near as much as Stephon Gilmore gets. because Sammy Watkins would cost the Bills millions more than Jordan Matthews. because the trades were done after season tix sales were completed, and when most of the individual game tix have been sold, too. Finally, trading Watkins doesn't make any kind of football sense at all. A team looking to actually rebuild jettisons its expensive older players not its few young talents. Trading Watkins doesn't make the team bad enough to have a 2-3 win season which would likely guarantee the Bills a shot at a top collegiate QB if there's one to be had in 2018. Therefore, instead of using all those high picks to add talent to the team, they go to make some other team richer in talent in order to secure a shot at a QB. The Watkins trade does deprive Taylor of his most reliable -- and dangerous -- target this year and make his being a successful passer in 2017 more difficult, so there's going to be fewer complaints when he's cut in the off season before he's due any bonuses or salary, especially when fans are dazzled by the prospect of that shiny new model QB to be plucked from the 2018 draft. If the Bills manage to finagle their way into a top five pick and take a QB, the team will probably sell more season tickets than they did in 2009 when they signed Terrell Owens as the "savior". Oh, and one more thing: Russ Brandon is still running the show, just as he has since at least 2006. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it's likely a duck. You can "Billieve" it's an eagle if you want but after 17 years of putting up with the BS shelled out by OBD, I ain't buying the duck poop they're peddling.

Dudes, they were guards not tackles, although they both played on the left side. Agreed. Not only is the switch difficult because everything is reversed, but RTs and LTs tend to have different skill sets. RTs tend to be larger, less mobile, but stronger. They're usually a key to success in the running game. LTs tend to be taller and rangier, often with longer arms, and with more quickness. They are a key to successful pass protection because most QBs are righties, so they're "blind" to their left. It's much more likely that slower, less agile collegiate LTs successfully switch to RT in the NFL than vice versa, and often make top notch pro RTs like Brian Bulaga of the Packers.

Initially, I thought 8 to 10 wins were possible but that was when I thought the organization was committed to winning. Obviously, the Bills FO remains committed to putting profits ahead of wins, so the Bills will likely win 5-7 games and tease fans once again into thinking that they're much closer to making the playoffs than they are.

Bring Langston Walker out of retirement.

Maybe part of Goff's problem was that he didn't have targets. It's hard for any QB, even the Bradys and Rodgers, to throw successfully when they don't have good receivers for whatever reason. IMO, the hiring process during the few years the Pegulas have owned the team has been laughable, for both HC and GM. IIRC, Ryan was hired after meeting with the Pegulas when there were other candidates who hadn't been interviewed. As for Beane, that he was selected after McDermott suggests that he's the same kind of figurehead as Marv Levy was back in 2009-2010 ... and the real "powers behind the throne" are McDermott and Russ Brandon.

You know this how? How many season/individual game tix do you think the Bills would have sold if they had traded Watkins in June? The tickets have largely been sold. There are probably some left for the late season games and the least attractive ones, but I think the timing of the Watkins trade was definitely to maximize ticket sales.

^^^ What do you guys define as "a few"? 5? 10? 17? IMO, Beane is simply another henchman carrying out orders from Russ Brandon. The moves the Bills made this past off season and in training camp all stink of the very same philosphy of putting profitability far above winning that's been going on for the last 17 years. The team will never get significantly better when it constantly sheds its best young talent rather than pay them, which is exactly what it did again this year by letting Gilmore leave and shipping Watkins off. The Bills are back where they have been just about every year since 2002: scrambling to fill the holes created by not keeping the talent they already had and spinning in the media about how their fill-ins are "just as good" as the talented players who are gone. The only thing that's "new" -- well, sort of -- is that Beane is trying to spin these moves as something original: "building for the future while winning games". Right-o. Anybody want to buy a slightly used but recently rehabbed four lane bridge over Chautauqua Lake? I've got it for sale cheap.

My first thought when I read the OP was "Marrone knows what he's got in Bortles". Obviously, numerous posters in this thread only consider that Bortles was the first QB taken in the 2014 draft ...

The Bills have names filled in on their depth chart and they have bodies wearing WR numbers on the field that include an aging vet, a JAG, and a 2nd round rookie. They have a TE who can catch the ball when he's targeted. That does not equate to an "NFL caliber" receiving corps. It's been so long since the Bills actually fielded one -- 2002 -- that apparently most fans have forgotten what that includes: actual, bonafide #1 and #2 WRs, a slot receiver, an Hback or RB and a TE -- all of whom can catch the ball and block. As for the defense, whatever improvement comes from the DL and/or front 7 is going to be lost by the secondary. Unlike the Bills, most of the teams the Bills face this year understand that even just competent QBs like Andy Dalton and Ryan Tannehill can be successful if they have targets and protection ... and a lot of this year's opponents have QBs far better than just "competent".

No, I think "gift" is exactly the right word, but then, I like irony ... and sarcasm. Trust The Process because stripping the team of its good/elite young talent for draft picks has repeatedly proven to be the best way to build a championship team. Other than being billionaires, what qualifications do the Pegulas have for hiring Beane and McDermott? Their choice of Rex Ryan as HC? Hate to bust your bubble, but it was the Pegulas who were pretty instantly conned by Ryan's schtick when the advisors whom you disparage wanted another candidate. See above. For all the Pegulas' claims, their process is EXACTLY the same one that has resulted in 17 non-playoff seasons: let top talent leave rather than pay them, con the fans by dangling the promise of draft picks, and use JAGs and draft picks to fill the holes left by the departed talented players ... Oh, yeah, and laugh all the way to the bank at the gullibility of Bills fans.

No, a hallmark of a total disinterest in winning.

The Bills have been building for the future for twenty years but they haven't gotten there yet. Maybe they should try building for now.

Without an NFL caliber receiving corps, an OL that doesn't pass protect particularly well, and a pretty poor secondary? The playoffs are a pipdream.