Shaw66

Dawkins catches most the balls they throw to him.

It isn't scary having a rookie starting on the offensive line. It happens every season with a lot of teams. For the linemen, some guys just have it. That's why I'm excited about Torrence. If he's good enough to start, he's going to do nothing but help. Will he make an occasional mistake? Sure, but everyone makes mistakes. If he's good enough to start, he's better than Bates, and that's a good thing. And as others have said, and I repeated yesterday, the problem with the pass protection has been the middle. If the middle is solid, and if Dawkins is good enough, having a weak right tackle is a relatively small problem, because that's the easiest direction for Josh to handle the pass rush from.

In a way, we all were better off when there were no instantaneous publications of anything, and we all just waited a day to read the coverage that people wrote after watching the whole practice. Living in this social media world, we all get confused by the timing of info, by the less-than-completely-valid observations some people make, etc. But if we're not there, these tweets give us the feeling that we're talking with someone who is there, and we can't help ourselves. Add to that that we've all been starving for football to start, so we're gobbling up anything we can get. It's crazy. In some ways, it would be better for me if I just went with radio silence until September. Like, I'd actually do that, right?

Sounds like Cam Lewis broke it up. I'm not done with Shakir.

I didn't listen to the interview, but from the clips here, that's exactly what it sounds like. And exactly what a lot of fans have been saying for a year. Elam is a natural cover corner, and Benford really gets the coverage schemes that McD's pass defense thrives on. I've always thought that's why McDermott didn't keep Gilmore. And as lots of people have been saying, it's up to Elam. If he internalizes the schemes, he'll be the starter, because Benford simply can't "learn" some of the physical skills that come naturally to Elam. Also, I don't see how a platoon system works with corner back. When you platoon running backs, you're always sending some signals about what you might do, because the running backs have different skills. That's okay, however, because offense is all about putting a combination of threats on the field. DBs seem different to me - putting a different DBs in the game signal your weaknesses, not your strengths. Benford's in, if the offense puts a #1 receiver out there, the offense knows the defense is in zone or double coverage, because the Bills won't leave him out there alone. Elam's in, and the offense knows he's the soft spot in the zone. Jackson gives you the best disguise. What the Bills really need, really need, is for Elam to step up. If he can win the job (if he can get good enough playing the schemes), then the Bills have the best option out there, and Benford gets freed up for a possible move to safety, maybe as early as next year.

You're definitely in the wrong forum.

And that is why the Bills signed Hareis and Murray. They're a package with Torrence.

Kelce is a conventional sized tight end. Kincaid is a true tweener. He could be a big wideout in a pinch. He's close to Evans. He's like Hernandez was. Kelce is different. Regardless, there is nothing to suggest Beane was copying KC. Nothing.

None of the guyabi mentioned are typical for the position they play. Ep and Groot aren't typical edges, Bernard isn't, Brown, isn't. And there is zero evidence that Beane was copying the Chiefs. Zero. Bills needed receiving AND Kincaid was the BPA. That's all. And he's an unconventional tight end.

Really? It's all over. Rousseau, Epeneza, Spencer Brown, Kincaid, Bernard. They have a particular kind of guy they like - athletic, multi-purpose, competitors. They aren't conventional stars, and they might never work out. But it's certainly original. Yes. I've always viewed it that way. Classic lapse I. Focus that we've seen from Josh once in a while.

It's for the old-timers here. If you don't get it, your not old enough.

Okay, everyone join in: Oh, Kimmy, we love you!

When you're not with is, we're blue.

We don't love anyone as much as you (except maybe Josh).

We love you, Kimmy, oh yes we do!

Pardon me, but you're doing what a lot of us do here, which is to read things into posts that weren't there. I didn't "assess" Torrence at all. I just said that I'm happy that he already seems to have moved into the starting slot at RG, which is true. I said that's a good thing, because it means he's on top of the mental aspects of the game - he wouldn't be there if he wasn't able to handle what they were asking him to do. Elam didn't get slotted like that last season, and Cook didn't, either. McDermott moves guys up only when they've shown they can handle what he's being asked to do. Torrence isn't being asked yet to knock people on their butts, but he is being asked to know and execute his assignments, pick his man, pick up the calls at the line of scrimmage, and if he didn't do all that correctly in OTAs and practice, he wouldn't be playing ahead of Bates. In other words, he's done everything they've asked him to do better than Bates does it. That's a good sign, and because it's been a position of weakness for the Bills, that was an encouraging thing to come out of training camp. I hadn't seen the reports about today. Yeah, you and others get it. Obviously, no one knows how good these guys will be, but we can be pleased about developments so far. This is one. We also can be unhappy about others. For me, I'm disappointed Elam hasn't taken charge at CB2. I'd hoped that he would. By the end of the season, the Bills were ready to anoint Cook over Motor, and I was hoping the same would happen with Kair. Hasn't happened.

All we can do is wait and see how it works, but I'm encouraged. As we've been saying, repeating, in this thread, the two guards look like they're upgrades, and it's hard to know what the Bills will get out of Brown. But there's some reason to be optimistic. McDermott loves his jackknife guys. There are a whole bunch of them on the team. The result is that players are a lot of positions don't look like the best in the league, but they're versatile. Versatile is how they want their offensive line to be, apparently. Not the best pass protectors, but better than average. Not the best power run blockers, but better than average. Not the best downfield blockers, but better than average. The Bills seem to hope that they can pull together winning performances from dedicated athletes who can different things as needed. Torrence clearly does not fit that mold and frankly, I'm encouraged by that. I don't care that he maybe can't get out on screen passes like Bates can. My priorities at that spot are (1) can you stop the pass rush, and (2) can you win straight ahead. He looks like a guy who can do that, and if so, I'll be happy. To paraphrase what others have said, in terms of pass protection, if you're going to have a weakness, right tackle is the place to have it, because the QB sees the rush coming from there, and because Josh has shown extraordinary ability to avoid the rush from there. So, if Brown is weak in pass pro, that's not so bad if Torrence can control his man, because Josh can handle the lone rusher from the right. Having said all that, I also must add that I've never been a huge Dawkins fan. All in all, offensive line was the concern when the season ended, they've done some things to address it, early reports are positive, and we'll see what happens.

There's no wishful thinking in my post. I didn't declare the offensive line top 10 or anything like that. I just said that the reps Torrence is getting suggest he's already winning his battle, and that's a good thing, because that's where the Bills most needed help. And McGovern, whom I didn't call an all-pro or anything. I just suggested that what we've seen so far suggests that the Bills will have better starting guards. I said Brown is a concern, so I wasn't doing any wishful thinking there either. I don't get it.

That's funny. Thanks. I do the same thing with "you" all the time. I like Morse. I like him because I think the Bills like him for his leadership. I think he takes charge of the line the way he's supposed to, makes the calls, keeps everything in order. Frankly, I think that's why they like Bates, too.

Where did I say I don't like Morse? I said standing his ground is the weak part of his game, and from my observation that is correct. He gets overpowered sometimes, and he isn't a powerful straight-ahead blocker. He isn't a great center to run a QB sneak behind. As you said, he's slightly better than average. He's smart, he gets downfield well on run plays, and he leads the line well. But last season, when he had two guards beside him who struggled, his lack of power and strength hurt the Bills. The two guards had trouble in pass protection, and when one had to doublet team a tackle, Morse also had trouble protecting Allen. If McGovern and Torrence can do better than Saffold and Bates, Morse's weaknesses will be less exposed, and his overall play will improve.

I agree. It was the pressure up the middle that was the problem. And standing his ground is the weak part of Morse's game. He gets pushed back. If the Bills can hold the middle, Josh can deal with the rush from the right side.

You guys can say all of this, but I'm not buying it. Bates knows the system and o'Cyrus doesn't. Bates's talent is his quickness and brains, the stuff that shows up without pads. Torrence's bulk is what gives him an advantage when the pads come on. So if Torrence already is earning snaps ahead of Bates, in the kind of practices where Bates should have the advantage, I think it means Torrence is impressing. The Bills already seem to have decided that Williams isn't ready for the middle, but Torrence hasn't struggled that way.

Thanks for the link. Certainly has more and better experience than the guys held over from last season. I didn't know anything about him.

Absolutely right about Tremaine, and it's a good point. His special skills dictated the style of play to some extent. But it's also true about Davis. One thing that's true about the NFL is that it's constantly adjusting, and the NFL is adjusting to Davis. If you have Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison, you don't have to worry about the league adjusting, but Davis isn't one of those guys. He's just an ordinary #2 with a particular skill set, and the league is figuring out how to deal with that skill set. Better to move on to a different skill set, just like the Bills have done at middle linebacker. At the end of the day, it's just a different way of saying the guy isn't good enough. You extend Tre White, because even though the league knows by now what he does will, he still is valuable. Same with Milano. Couldn't say the same thing about Edmunds, and I don't think we can say it about Davis. The only #2 worth extending is a guy who is a true #1 (like Reggie Wayne), and Davis isn't that.

Of course, but like most good players coming out of college, they've already shown that they're good at knocking the other guy around. The challenge for most of them is from the neck up. I would guess that from watching film the Bills already know that Torrence is physically better than Bates. The fact that Torrence is running with the 1s suggests that his head is in the right place. We'll see.