Shaw66

You know, NBC has a product to sell - the NFL, and they aren't going to bash the product, but Tirico and Collinsworth really weren't frank about what was going on. It was obvious - Malik Willis look less like an NFL quarterback than any guy who has started in my memory. He was horrible. There was no way he was going to mount a drive over 20 yards. There was a time late in regulation or in overtime when it looked for a few seconds like KC was going for it on 4th down when kicking the field goal was the obvious thing to do. The ONLY reason KC might have thought about going for it was that they knew, for a certainty, that they could stop Willis. It would have been a much different game with a QB. Almost any other QB.

I was there. It wasn't really half. Maybe a third, but no more than that. More like a quarter. But as you say, it was surprising that we made so little noise. The crowd seemed much as you say, out for a fun day with the team that makes them happy. Sophisticated northeasterners. Jets fans were incredibly passive. I was amazed. It didn't occur to them that they were supposed to make noise, and it was only after the Bills fans lit up that the Jets fans did anything. It was almost like they were embarrassed into making noise.

Thanks for this. I didn't want to dump too much on Allen, but this says it really well. He seems to be back to wanting the splash play and forgetting that possession and the first down are what matters. Against the Packers, I think, he chose to throw low percentage passes instead of taking the clear running path to the first down and a slide. Still, I'd like to know what really happened on the two INTs, because those throws looked beyond rookie stupid, and Josh doesn't strike me as stupid.

Right. There's a different thread going about whether the sky is falling. I've posted there. Where I come out is that the sky isn't falling, it's impossible for the good teams to be good for the entire season and the playoffs. Every team is still in the process of trying to figure out how to win consistently. That's where KC is, that's where the Bills are. Which teams will go on runs over the next two months? I don't know, but KC and Buffalo are among the better bets.

Thanks for the link, on both plays. Not that it matters, but I still think it was underthrown. I think Davis slowed a bit in his last several strides, to let the ball fall into perfect catching position. Frankly, if his right arm hadn't gotten tangle up and he had two hands, he might have caught it anyway. But if the ball were farther downfield, Gardiner would have been a full stride behind Davis - Gardiner closed in the last few yards. Then Davis would have been free to catch the ball without Gardiner making any kind of play. However, I say none of this as a criticism of the throw. From 60 yards, one yard off of absolute full stride is still a bulls-eye. Fact is, the play points up the difference between Diggs and most other guys. Diggs is the man you wanted catching that ball, not Davis. Josh put the ball where he needed it for his receiver to make a play, and Stefon is one of those guys who makes a lot of those plays.

I could throw out a couple of names, and we could argue about them, but the real point is that question is irrelevant. It really is. The best teams do not have a boatload of irreplaceable players. Who did the Patriots have, beyond Brady? Revis for a few years, Wilfork for several. There are only 30 or 40 irreplaceable players in the league, and with the salary cap and the draft, that means that every team ought to have 1 or 2. A few may have three or four, but they often aren't the best players. How many irreplaceable players do the Cowboys have? It's a trick question, because you reach some silly conclusions, one way or another. One the one hand, you might say the have Zeke and Dak and a great offensive lineman, and that long speedy receiver, and that linebacker. There are five, and yet they aren't dominating. We'll see. Or you argue that only one or two of those are irreplaceable, but if that's true, then it kind of proves that there are only 30-40 irreplacable guys. No, winning is not about collecting irreplaceable players. You need one or two, and one has to be your QB, but what you really need is a whole team full of guys who do their jobs with a high degree of success.

I actually disagree about both points. As to Knox, it may be true that if the offense were playing better, Knox might have better stats. But from the coach's perspective, they could care less what his stats are. If you have a true game changer - Diggs and Allen are true game changers, then yes, coaches should do something if those guys aren't getting touches. Knox is not a true game changer, and I don't think the Bills expect that he ever will be. He's a good, useful guy to have at TE. Each week the coaches figure out what they think will work best against the opposing defense. They may be good at that or they may not be, but it certainly isn't their job to look for ways to improve anyone's stats. They're looking for ways to score points, and from week to week to week that may or may not have something to do with Knox. As for the injuries, I disagree. Playoffs, those guys are dressing. Milano, Poyer, even White, in whatever condition he was in yesterday. Maybe in December. Some guys actually did get back for the Chiefs game, and who knows how many were actually ready and how many of them limited in what they could do. But in general, good teams absolutely do NOT play games in the first week of November like they games in the third week of January. They don't. They don't because it takes a big physical and emotional toll on the players, and it's very difficult to hold up physically and emotionally playing that level for three months. No good teams do it. Teams that may be in the process of becoming good teams, and teams that want to be good teams do it, like the Jets did yesterday. But those teams change as they get good, because they learn. The Bills are past that stage. They've had their signature "we're here" wins, and now their eyes are squarely fixed on what works to get them to their ultimate goal. Here's an interesting measure: During the period that Belichick and Brady together, did the Patriots have a better record inside or outside the division? Turns out, they had a better record outside the division. That is, on average, the Bills, Jets and Dolphins beat the Patriots more often than the rest of the league. Why is that? One reason is because every year or two, each of the Bills, Jets, and Dolphins were good enough to have an outside chance of beating the Pats. When they got to that point, for them the Patriots game was like the Super Bowl. So, they won more often than the rest of the league. Sure, the Pats played division winners outside their own division, but division winners often regress the next season, so that they aren't such good competition. If all it took was to play every game like it was the Super Bowl, everyone would do that. No one does, because it's not possible to sustain that attitude over months. Think about - the Bills still have three months of games, one a week, ahead of them.

Do you have a link to it? Not complaining, but I thought it was underthrown. A yard deeper and Davis wouldn't have had the same fight for the ball. I'd like to see it again, if you guys don't think it was underthrown. I think he underthrew Diggs earlier in the game. But in both cases, the fact it was underthrown is a mere technical conclusion. The actual length the ball was thrown to be able to hit the receiver more or less in stride is a a big-time throw. As someone said, if you are able to make that throw, physically able, you take it more or less every time.

I'm squarely in both camps. Look, I'm really deflated today, and that's what a lot of people are saying. Other people are saying, "Relax. It's one game." I know, that overstates it, but that at least gives a name to the two camps: This is depressing vs. it's just one game. The truth is that the NFL has been like this for years. Teams that are great early in the season often have trouble sustaining that initial excellence. Happened to the Pats often in the early part of the season. Seems to happen to the Bills in mid-season. So, no, we shouldn't be surprised; that's true. But many, many Bills fans didn't even go through the Super Bowl years, and many of us that did go through it frankly don't remember the ups and downs of the season - we just remember the ending, or the playoff games. We are, in a sense, a bunch of rookies going through the experience of being fans of a good team. Pats fans changed over the years, as they grew accustomed to success. Colts fans changed, too. They had to learn about having Peyton and still not winning championships. But, no, we also shouldn't not be excited. If I could choose my future, I would certainly choose the future of having Allen and the Pats' fan experience rather than Allen and the Colts' fan experience. Or maybe, it's the Allen and the Chargers' (with Rivers) fan experience. Josh and the Bills aren't a great team yet, and there are lots of landing places other than being a great team. When they play so much not like a great team, it's naturally troubling.

Thanks. I was sitting on the field at the opposite 40, so it was hard to see where he threw from. So, 70, not 80, but we agree about who Josh is. Absolutely, got to make that throw. And, I agree. I expect he will be fine. Still growing.

Good points, both. Maybe they would have done 1 if Milano had been healthy - play Bernard instead of Johnson on first down, and challenge the Jets to throw it more. And although I don't focus on it, whenever I see someone make point 2, I can't argue. What the heck? The oline is 1/4 of your starting lineup, almost, so as a starting point, 1/4 of the guys drafted in the top 3 rounds should be olinemen. Okay, maybe you're going to go heavier at some other positions, so call it 1/6. Four drafts, that's 12 guys in the top three rounds. 1/6 would be two offensive linemen in four drafts. If many serves, the Bills have taken zero. You're correct.

I now realize I’m cursed. I must forever swallow these bitter pills, and I can’t digest them until I talk it out. Damn. I had a bad feeling about the Jets game all week. It seemed clear that Robert Saleh had finally built a defense that people expected when he arrived in New Jersey. I figured the Jets wouldn’t be able to score much, and the question would be whether the Jets defense was good enough to stop the Bills from scoring. The Bills didn’t look great against the Packers last week, and I was worried. I took my son and grandson to see the game. Josh Allen threw another opening drive interception, and the bad feeling I had never went away. The Jets were, in fact, good enough to stop the Bills from scoring. The following brain dump of more or less unrelated points is necessary just so I can get on with the rest of my life, at least until the Vikings game: 1 The season doesn’t start until November. Everyone knows that. This season, I let myself get tricked into thinking the Bills’ early-season success meant something. It didn’t. At least, it didn’t mean much. The Bills whipped the Super Bowl champs and then manhandled the Titans. Turns out, the Rams were one-year wonders and the Titans were still playing preseason football. They beat the Chiefs, but the two teams seem to have gone in opposite directions since then. 2. Quarterbacks don’t become great until they face and overcome adversity. Well, Josh, adversity is knockin’ on your door. You’re looking mortal. I heard you have a bad elbow; I don’t know if that’s true, but if it is, you and the Bills need to work through it. My son suggested that a careful look at replays of your two interceptions suggest that maybe, just maybe, those weren’t total boneheaded throws. Apparently in your post-game press conference you said those throws were on you, which you’re supposed to say and good for you, but my son thinks that your receivers weren’t on the same page with you. Knox apparently turned upfield, thinking you would turn the corner and run and he should take his man with him, and you thought he’d continue coming back to you. Davis may have turned the wrong way on the interception in the third quarter; a different cut and Gardiner would have been behind Davis and fighting to break up a completion. No matter; you can’t let that happen. Those two throws easily were the difference in the game. 3. Speaking of Davis, by now everyone should realize that he isn’t the second coming of Megatron. He’s a nice receiver to have on the team, but he is not the second half of some all-world receiving duo. Diggs, by the way, is the first half. The man can flat-out play. 4. Is there any question that defenses have caught up to offenses? Nothing comes easy. It’s happening all over the league. Defenses are stopping the deep and intermediate passing game, and running and stopping the run has returned as a key to success. The Bills’ running attack hasn’t been good enough to respond to this change, and their run defense hasn’t been good enough to respond to the good running teams (like the Jets). 5. I continue to be unimpressed by Jaquan Johnson. Against the Jets, he took the wrong angles trying to close down runs to the outside and coughed up big yardage. It’s pretty clear that the Bills need the first tackler on the scene, if not to make the tackle, at least to slow down the momentum of the ball carrier so that the pursuers have time to shut down the play. Johnson failed to do that, and it hurt. 6. Hamlin is better than Johnson, and that’s why he got the start once Hyde went down. But the combination of Hamlin and Johnson just looks too small to me. Their size says “corner” to me. Hyde and Poyer are bigger guys – make them a little bigger and they’d be linebackers. We may see Marlowe next week. 7. Von Miller certainly has the knack for making big plays. 8. I’m getting this uncomfortable feeling that the Bills have too many-all purpose guys and not enough who are really good at one thing. It sure is nice that Bass can kick it high, kick it low, kick it long, kick it short – all-purpose, but how about a guy who never kicks off out of bounds and actually makes field goals? 9. I knew Milano wasn’t playing, but I didn’t think about who his replacement would be. I don’t think I actually saw Bernard until the third quarter, and that is not a good thing. Milano never goes a half without making himself noticeable. 10. I went into the season liking the Bills depth, and the depth has been helpful, so long as the lineup isn’t full of second-team players. Once the rest of the starting offensive line returned, Quessenberry has done fine. But when both your safeties, your number one corner, and your starting matchup outside linebacker are out, a second-string defensive backfield just can’t make enough stops. 11. I immediately liked the look of Hines. Really solid catching punts, nice speed. Great lay-out up the left sideline on the ball that Josh overthrew just a bit. And I continue not to like the look of Cook. He has speed, but he doesn’t show any quickness or shiftiness. I first thought it was Cook who laid out, and I was really excited to see some intensity. I think we’ll more of Hines next week, and probably less of Cook. 12. I continue to doubt that McKenzie is the answer in the slot. He looks great on jet sweeps, as he always has, but it’s an adventure every time Josh throws him the ball, especially on what should be bread-and-butter slants. Beasley caught ‘em, Diggs catches ‘em; McKenzie, well, it’s an adventure. Shakir must have plateaued in practice; otherwise, we would be seeing more of him out there. 13. So many people were talking about how the Bills were through the tough part of the schedule. Forget that. Jets, Dolphins, and Pats twice looks pretty tough. Vikings and Browns. The NFL is never easy, and there are no free passes to the Super Bowl. 14. We may be looking at the characteristic mid-season slump that we’ve seen form McDermott before. McDermott wants to have his best team in December, and now is the time that he earns his money. It’s time for the Bills to start showing they can handle whatever teams throw at them. They need four wins in the division. 15. Still, as I said earlier in the season, the object is to go at least 3-1 every quarter of the season, and here the Bills are 6-2 with wins over the Chiefs and Titans. They’re in a good position, but they need to be better than they were against the Jets. 16. Oh, and the throw to Diggs on first down on the last possession was magnificent, as was the catch. Penalty really hurt. And the throw to Davis later? I haven’t seen a replay, but I believe that throw went from the goal line to the Jets 20 and was more or less on target! It was truly incredible. GO BILLS!!! The Rockpile Review is written to share the passion we have for the Buffalo Bills. That passion was born in the Rockpile; its parents were everyday people of western New York who translated their dedication to a full day’s hard work and simple pleasures into love for a pro football team.

I don't think I've seen your entire discussion, but I want to jump in. First, let me say that this is, by all measures, an excellent fan forum, based on quality of discussion, information, absence of nonsense. It's so good that I've long since stopped wishing the moderators might do things a little differently here or there. It's easier just to accept and live by the rules in place here. Different responsible people might run it differently, but it certainly works great for my purposes, and probably most other posters agree, if they think about. Having said that, I would like it better if people started threads a little more liberally. Poyer's elbow injury, a thread that came back for six weeks ago to continue a discussion about Poyer's injuries in 2022, is just not a good place to look for not just news, but for discussion also. We know the history of the first four weeks of the season, and discussion about Poyer now is in the context of what fans know now. New injury, new thread. And it doesn't help much when someone changes the title and says "Update, p27." As for looking for news, it is darn convenient for fans, and it's what makes the place attractive to a lot of people, is that I know I can come here and if there's news, Yolo's posted it. I mean, man, what a service that is. No BS news, just real news, with links. Like I said, I've got no complaints.

I've been amazed at that, too, but I don't think they subscribe for the ratings. They don't care about the ratings PFF comes up with. They subscribe for access to searchable data, so they can use it for analytics that matter to them.

As one indication of how useless PFF is, consider this: The market spoke very clearly about what Milano was worth - $10 million a year. Everyone seems to agree that the market for Edmunds will be $15-$20 million a year. So, what exactly is the relevance of PFF ranking Milano higher than Edmunds? It's merely an indication that coaches and GMs understand football and PFF doesn't. No one would trade Edmunds even up for Milano.

One thing I've learned over the years on fan forums is that posters have styles. I don't pay a lot of attention to the styles of others, but I understand something about my own style. My style is to watch what the Bills are doing and to try to understand what they're doing and why. I don't spend much time worrying about whether management's philosophy is right or wrong because, well, I can't do anything about that. I mean, I could see over time that Ralph Wilson wasn't particularly good at running football teams, but I couldn't fire him. I just watch and try to understand what people are trying to. In threads about Edmunds, I try to understand how the Bills are using him and whether the Bills get a lot or a little benefit out of that approach. For example, when Rex Ryan was the coach, I understood that Rex's philosophy was that he could win with a big-play defense. I could understand that without making a judgment about whether that was the best approach or not. Then they hired McDermott and defense switched to bend-don't-break. Okay, that means that now I have understand and live with that approach. I suppose if I thought about it I'd have an opinion about which is better, but that's just not my style. Did 13-seconds prove that Rex was right and Sean is wrong? No. Actually, in what was, I think, Rex's last year with Jets, they lost a game when Rex rushed six with something like 20 seconds left in the game and the opponent beat single coverage for an 85-yard pass, catch and run for the game winning score. The whole country thought Rex was an idiot. Defensive philosophy is just philosophy. Once you have your philosophy, you still have to be prepared, and you have to execute. The Bills weren't prepared for 13 seconds, and they didn't execute. I think you could have put any middle linebacker on the field in place of Edmunds - Sam Huff, Brian Uhrlacher, Dick Butkus, Ray Lewis, Keuchle, anyone, and in the defenses the Bills ran, the Chiefs would have gotten the same result. That loss was on the coaches, but not because of their defensive philosophy. They and their team were unprepared to defend the whole field in that situation. The worst example, of course, was that the Bills were defending the sideline to prevent completions and a quick clock stoppage, when the Chiefs had timeouts and didn't need to use the sideline. That was a classic fail, and it had nothing to do with bend-don't-break.

Well, one game isn't much to go on, but that's an interesting point. McDermott's defense doesn't rely (much) on stars. Obviously, if McD thinks a good solid talent - like Milano - could fill the middle, they won't spend $20 million a year to keep him.

Did you see my post in thread about Ray Guy? Not about injury, but talk about a football life that sucked.

I agree about this. Prior to this season, it was very unusual to see him get low enough AND be in position to drive into a ball carrier with his shoulders. This year, he looks different. He still isn't a classic wrap n roll tackler, but he's definitely lower, and now that he's lower, he seems to be missing tackles less. Plus, here's a pure guess on my part, but this tackling issue is probably just larger than tackling. I would guess that Edmunds came to the NFL less well-prepared, fundamentally, than a lot of guys. He was young, that's for sure. I know his dad coached him and all, but a guy that big and agile had to be tackling guys in high school, and maybe even in college, just by overwhelming ball carriers. He was bigger, stronger, faster. I'd guess that the details of footwork, for example, were not nearly as critical to his success at lower levels than for a guy like Bernard, who apparently really studied the game to achieve what he did in college. I would be surprised if there weren't a lot of fundamental issues that he's had to learn, including reading offenses. This season, we may be seeing his emergence after years of growth. McDermott and Beane may think that we've only just begun to see what he can do. I don't know, obviously, but he certainly seems to be a better player this season. If he's just coming into his prime now, Beane will write the check.

I'm not selling, not at all. I don't want football to stop. I think people can choose what they want. I think the NFL has done a lot about head safety and will continue to do more, and I think even long term effects will go down. I eas just talking about the practical reality of 22 strong guys running into each other at full speed. Sooner or later someone will die, probably with a broken neck.

Objectively, this is a correct take. I stopped watching boxing decades ago because it was totally in-your-face human brutality against another human. Football is only marginally better, dressed up and glorified, but a gladiator sport nonetheless. I've said for years that the beginning of the end will be when an NFL player dies on the field. It's coming. Bruce Smith said so 30 years ago, and I think he was right. The linebacker for the Steelers came close. When it happens, the NFL moguls will be defenseless, sponsors will drop them, and the whole glorious think will wind down. I just hope the Bills win the Lombardi before it happens.

Thanks. When I was about 14, I saved up and bought the Duke. Cost maybe twice as much as other leather or rubber balls. I was in high demand for touch football games after that.

Yes. And the fundamental point that people seem to miss is that this is a bend-don't-break defense and not a big play defense. Edmunds' critics complain that he doesn't make big plays, but in the middle of this defense, that's not his job. His job is to make sure the defense doesn't break. That means he plays a more passive role, cleaning up for the d line when the d line is unable to make a play, roaming the middle so that the ball goes deep or outside, where the playmakers are. It's funny how people argue with the results. Bills are third in yards allowed per game this season, and since Edmunds arrived they have finished 14th once, and third, second, and first. How could that be if the middle linebacker has no instincts and can't tackle? If he's that bad, when they replace him with a real linebacker, offenses will go three and out all day long. It will be shut-out heaven.

I think this is primarily making things up to fit your argument. First, the Bills' ALWAYS ask players to do what they can do well and not to do the things they can't do well. That's part of the system. But the evidence is very clear that the Bills always move on from players who aren't getting the job done - they've done it with multiple offensive linemen, with multiple defensive linemen, etc., and it's naive to think that the Bills would have put up with sub-par play out of Edmunds for five years. They would have moved on. Zach Moss, Cody Ford, Harrison Philips all are evidence of that. It's all a question of money, as far as I can tell. So long as the Bills want to play this style of defense, they'll be happy to have Edmunds in the middle, if they can afford him. And if they keep him at $18 or $20 million, that will tell you that your perception of his deficiencies is flat out wrong. I remember what Doug Whaley said about the cap: There's enough room for six big contracts: QB, left tackle, and one more on offense, edge, corner, and one more on defense. Josh, Dion, Stefon, Von, Tre, and someone on defense that you write a big check for. More likely Edmunds than Oliver or than Poyer.

I watched some of this. If you get into the actual game highlights, which is maybe 10 minutes in or so, Bisons (Bills) versus the Brookyn, you can see the difference between the single-wing (Brooklyn) and the T-formation (Bisons). The Bisons ran a straight T-formation - two tight ends, fullback behind the QB and a halfback on either side of the fullback. Sometimes they put a halfback in motion. Brooklyn ran a single-wing variation (I never learned all the intricacies), but you can see that the guy who takes the direct snap is maybe six yards deep with a couple of backs in front of him on either side. It's a perfect punt formation for a quick kick - two personal protectors in case anyone breaks through the line quickly. Take the snap, take a step, kick it, and watch it roll down the field as ends run down field like gunners in case the receiving team has any notion of picking up the ball. Great for the punter's gross and net average. As more teams ran the straight T, they figured out they could split one of the ends out wide - the first wideout. And by the mid-50s they realized they didn't need two halfbacks, so they flanked one out to the other side. Tight end was typically on the right side (strong side), flanker on the left. It wasn't until the 60s that someone (Raiders or Oilers, I think) figured out you could put both wideouts on the same side and really confuse the defense. And they started putting the tight end on the left once in a while. It wasn't long before we had Air Coryell, and that's when the game really broke loose.