Rochesterfan

The 2 make contact and Johnson pulls and slides off - pulling the defender down as he disengages o run down field. You easily see the Patriot player coming straight up the field and as he comes off Johnson he is sideways and rolling. The action of Johnson blocking and disengaging causes the player to hit Martin. I have no issue with it not being called. This happens where guys engage briefly and the offense guy uses the momentum to toss/fling a guy passed and head downfield. I actually was surprised they did not call Johnson for a hold on the play instead. You can clearly see at the 0:02 second mark on the video on Page 1 - Johnson engages and turn sideways with a hand under the shoulder and flings the Patriot. I also think the Patriot uses that momentum to purposely roll into the punter because he knows it will not draw a flag.

Just take 2 seconds to listen to the players - my god don’t be dumb. They would literally take players that got knocked out - give them smelling salts and put them back in the game. That guy is out 1-2 weeks minimum now because of the past injury and CTE suits. Kelly talks all the time about getting hit in the Super Bowl and playing for over a Quarter and having no recollection because of a concussion. The offensive players knew he was concussed because he was struggling to even get proper plays out. He isn’t alone - all around the league guys would “get their bell rung” and be expected to not miss time. The outrage for what happened to Tua never occurred in the past - literally guys with active concussions would be put right back into the game. DB’s and Safeties would head hunt WRs - guys like Atwood would just destroy guys with shots around the head. It isn’t even a question about whether there were more - the guys that played took and gave hits that would be illegal and players played with concussions and other injuries because of the manhood code and the fact that missing games meant a chance at losing your job when the money wasn’t enough to retire on. The stories are all over - if you listen and the NFL points out all the time the reason for changes. If you go back to the late 90’s and early 2000’s with rules like “in the grasp” they were trying to reduce QB injuries as the league was seeing many teams lose starting QBs to injury do to hits both high and low. They started to afford extra protections and allowed QBs to throw the ball away outside the pocket as owners wanted to protect assets. Then came more WR protections and defenseless WR rules and DE protections by eliminating chop and cut blocks especially on engaged rushers. The NFL followed that up with RB protections on lowering the helmet to hit or when running to protect players. Are you suggesting they put these rules in place without data on injury history and concussion data? The NFL made huge money on the hits of players like Lott and Atwater, but realized the fans did not leave as they removed those plays and the increased scoring added fans. No one is expecting DBs to allow a catch - the target zone is just smaller than it used to be. If Hamlin hits the WR in the mid section with his shoulder - he is probably fine, but that is not what he did. Big hits still happen, but the NFL is using penalties and ejections to move those hits lower - once they stop the high shots - you will see them legislate against more shots at the knees or below - just as they did with QBs and then blocking.

I don’t know, but I suspect the coaches booth at Gillette Stadium is high and off to the side - so he is looking at spotting and substitutions to help Ken. Some stadiums - you need a spotter to help ensure exactly what is happening as your angle and distance make it hard.

Nope - Popularity has increased even with the league legislating out the big hits of the players you mentioned. Changing the hits has allowed many players to stay healthy and continuing to play, which was something the fans liked and actually demanded, but the popularity has risen exponentially and created more exposure. The injuries like ACLs still happen, but watch QBs like Kelly get killed standing in the pocket. Watch the WRs get knocked out going across the middle. Watch the DE’s that used to get cut by OL all game long. They have purposely legislated the game to prevent massive hits because even if you don’t hit them in th head - the whiplash effect of a player braced for a hit to an unsuspecting WR or a blind side block can cause the same damage. So no I don’t think a player hitting someone to separate the ball should automatically be legal. The NFL gives a ton of leeway - but hits like Hamlin's should 100% be illegal. He hit him high around the shoulders and as Meyers ducked there was contact with the head. People constantly complain about the NFL becoming a flag football league (just as people complain about Hockey and less fighting) and people keep saying they will stop watching and yet it’s popularity is going up ever year.

I don’t know - I love the Prime Telecast. I love the pre and post game. Michaels and Herbstreet are fine. I love having the Prime Vision cast with stats and facts and the All-22 view. I love getting the game on my TV and then flipping to my I-Pad when I want to travel or head to bed. I think Prime is already significantly better than Sunday Night Football or MNF on ESPN - although I enjoy the Manning cast. Considering how this is their first season and they are offering much more than traditional channels - I am ecstatic with the games. Give me more and fire the SNF group and Aikman on Mondays.

They do expect collision - the NFL has just started correctly dictating where you can collide. With a defenseless WR the collision is very targeted what you can do. The defender is initiating the contact has must ensure the contact stays lower in the event the WR tries to protect himself by ducking. Hamlin did 90% right - used his shoulder, didn’t launch himself, targeted the ball as it arrived, but the hit was up around the upper chest/shoulders and Meyers saw it was coming and ducked and the hit went through the shoulders to the head and exactly as it should it was flagged. I still believe the ejection had more to do with the crew tying to maintain control in a blow-out rather than risk escalation. The NFL continues to grow in popularity while legislating more and more restrictions on hitting, blocking, tackling, and formations because it has kept more QBs, WRs, and DEs healthy and able to play throughout the year. Scoring increases, number of plays increase, offensive talent increases and the game gets more fans every year watching more games and spending more money - there is no reason for the NFL to go back to the way it was done.

Correct - but they are a huge part of why the league had to adapt. The league does not want those players to make or survive today and that is the correct choice for the future of the NFL. Tons of HOF type players couldn’t survive in todays NFL. A crazy guy like Conrad Dobler or Deacon Jones with his head slaps, or even a cheap artist cutting o-line like Mark Schlerth are the reason the rules have been made and they all would struggle in todays NFL and that is not a bad thing to me.

Agreed - hate the ejection. The truth is I think the ejection had more to do with the timing in the game. With so little time left and a big score discrepancy- I get using the ejection to ensure that no-one goes after Hamlin and if removes a potential trigger. You saw during the Bills kneel downs how the Refs really had to get in between quickly to make sure nothing escalated. I think it was similar - you remove Hamlin at a point that it will not effect the outcome - it calms some of the anger over a big hit and it removes a retaliation potential on the next few plays that could spark something worse. So although I do not think the play warrants an ejection - I was not totally surprised to see that call at that point.

The ground can most certainly cause a fumble - it happens all the time. The ground can not cause a fumble on a player being tackled because when they hit the ground with anything other than feet or hands they are down by contact. If the player dives forward untouched and the ball squirts free on hitting the ground - it is a fumble. Even if the ground causes it. The issue with the Poyer Interception- is and has been - that if in the act of catching the ball the player is going to the ground - the NFL considers that part of the catch action and he must maintain full control through the action - regardless of steps, knee down, any other action. In this case, whether Poyer got 2, 3, or 4 feet down - or his knee hit first out of bounds, or he made an act of tucking the ball as he was falling - all of that is irrelevant because the act of falling started as part of the catch and therefore he must complete the catch. When he lands on the ground he loses possession as the ball rides up his chest and he re-established control lying on the ground out of bounds. That is the point the catch becomes official because based upon his falling action as part of the catch that is all part of the action. It is the same reason the Meyer TD was not a TD. He made the catch and had control, 2 feet down, and moved the ball from his shoulders to his hip, and act like tucking common to the game. Meyers never possessed the ball and completed additional move - so not catch - they have requirements to fulfill. Poyer in going to the ground also has a requirement and he did not fulfill it. Making a knee down a sole requirement has further impact because if a player dives in the middle of the field untouched and catches a ball laid out - and he posses the ball in his hands, his legs and knees make first contact- fulfilling the requirement, but as he lands on the ground the ball pops out - now it becomes a fumble rather than an incomplete pass. It becomes even worse when we add that for Poyer most of this occurred out of bounds. I understand the consternation, but it was a pretty clear cut and easy call to make and based upon how they call the game it was absolutely 100% the correct call. The call goes totally different if Poyer stays on his feet mostly because without hitting the ground - he never loses the ball - hence the requirement.

The problem is based on the rule Poyer did not catch the ball in bounds - he had 2 hands on the ball and got 2 feet down - fulfilling part of the requirements - when he landed out of bounds - he lost control and re-established control while OOB. The play Poyer makes is 100% an Int if he is in bounds, but based upon the ruling he does not establish control when the ball bounces on his chest OOB. It is essentially like someone recovering a fumble in the field of play, but their feet are OOB.

Then I will ask again - should Meyers have been awarded a TD on Hamlin’s hit. He got 2 feet down and moved the ball from his shoulder to his hip. Then he got drilled and it was correctly ruled incomplete. 2 feet and control is not the rule - it is part of the rule. To make a play like Poyer’s acceptable- has consequences like making Meyers a TD. It also makes potential catches into fumbles. Based upon how the NFL calls catches - they absolutely got it right - you want to change that - fine but then people will get pissed about plays like Meyers becoming a catch because it occurred in the end zone or if that Meyers hit occurs in the field that being ruled a fumble.

Yeah I mean it is not like he just threw for over 620 yards at a 77% completion rate with 2 TDS and no Ints in his last 2 games or anything. I think he is a leader because every player on both offense and especially defense talk about him as a leader. I think he is a leader because I watch him communicate and adjust the Dline and Milano and switch up the defense and communicate with the safeties to coordinate the 3 levels to get everyone in the best position. The very thing we have been lacking the past 2 1/2 games when we had to go very basic shell coverages. Mostly I think he is a leader because of how his teammates rally around him and speak of him and how that was missing with him out.

That might be, but he clearly gets 2 feet down and that action causes him to fall - therefore the way they teach it is no matter how many body parts or tucking action occurs - he still must maintain the control. If all of that had occurred 3 more feet in bounds and he flew as he did - got both feet down and continue to fall - his knee, hip, and shoulder all landed in bounds, but his head hit OOB and the ball moved - possession would have been established after his head hit OOB and it would still be incomplete. The reason I say be careful is because any rule change where tucking might be considered a football action could have unseen consequences- such as a WR diving for a catch in bounds - gets hands on the ball and 2 feet down. As he is falling he tucks the ball and it comes loose as he hits the ground - based upon your new definition- that would be a catch and a fumble with the potential for a huge turnover.

How should they change it to make that a catch - because you have to be very careful or you end up with a bunch of unintended consequences. The rule is set pretty standard now for actions where the player makes a catch that causes him to go to the ground. I am all for examining it, but I think that in pretty much any scenario- that is an incomplete pass. I do not see what change you make that allows a player that loses full possession of the ball to be granted a catch or interception OOB.

The turf never matter - it is at what point the action of a catch is complete and in this case the action is not complete until he has survived hitting the ground. The ball moved when he landed - so the action of his completing the play occurred as soon as he re-secured the ball and at that point he was OOB. Should the pass that Hamlin broke up been called a TD? The Receiver caught the ball very briefly with 2 feet down and got drilled before he could move and the ball came loose. They define in the rules and via study what makes a catch and what doesn’t - some are close, but neither of them in the game last night were particularly close. Poyer clearly lost control when he hit the ground - it was pretty obvious and should have been called live, but was so easy they didn’t even need to have the Ref look to overturn. Hamlin’s hit also clearly caused the receiver to lose possession before he could make a football move.

I guess I really do not understand how anyone could not understand the ruling. The Refs got it 100% correct and even though it sucks - that is exactly how that call should go based upon the rules. Poyer did everything right - caught the ball and worked hard to get both feet down, but that action caused him to fall to the ground - now the rule becomes he must maintain control of the ball through contact with the ground. Poyer clearly loses control as the ball moves when he hits the ground. The fact that he regains control without the ball hitting the ground is meaningless. The “official” catch does not occur until he has control and is on the ground in this situation and that occurs with him well out of bounds. If that had happened in the middle of the field it is an interception at the point he regains control, but as that occurred OOB - it is just incomplete. There is nothing crazy or controversial about the call - it is pretty consistently called that way along the sidelines and just because it negated an Int - doesn’t change they got the call correct.

Wow look we get Edmunds back and the defense is suddenly significantly better and the passing windows much tighter and harder to hit. Almost like Edmunds is a huge and vital piece to the defense as both a player and a leader to get the team ready. 🤦‍♂️

Because as you go later and later in the season - a high priced player suddenly becomes more and more affordable as it becomes a per game basis. Teams near the salary cap could suddenly pick up a stud WR week 16 or 17 and it cost less than 1 million against the cap. I would rather see no trades - you got you team and then anyone off the PS and FA pool - than see the trade deadline extended so mediocre teams can buy a cheep championship.

Agreed, but not only that - using your example maybe the Chargers who right now are middle of the road - use the deadline to buy Leonard and Pittman and become a better team along with weakening an opponent. I think the trade deadline is fine - much later and it has to much potential impact on the seasons outcomes.

I don’t think they asked him to go back in. McD would never do that. McD said after the game they had no idea he had torn his ACL. I think Doyle got hurt and knew he was the last OLman and he just gutted himself through it. I don’t even know if Doyle knew it was ACL - just that he hurt his knee, but was needed and so he kept going.

I believe being on PUP his contract will toll and he will be a FA again next off season. I believe the Bills threw him a nice bone to allow to rehab with the potential late in the season that you might have a guy you can activate that knows the system. Plus you did him and his agent a huge solid - good chance if he is showing good rehab - you have a priority spot to sign him again - if you want.

Wow - there you go!

I don’t know if I can contain myself until the end of his forced vacation.

I just think people are missing how this staff works with rookies when they can. They recognize most rookies play 10-13 games a season with several weeks of downtime in college - especially before bowl season. The Bills seem to work to allow as many rookies as possible to slowly work their way into playing time and when possible alternate or give them plays off - so they don’t hit the “Rookie Wall”. It also allows the Bills additional training and teaching time to ensure they are closer to being ready to handle the bigger games later. I think they have been slowly adding to cooks playing time and we will see that continue. I think the Bills were asking about RBs, but I do not believe either the CMC or the Kamara talks were anything beyond very preliminary questions to see if they could get a deal. I think the Bills are happier with the RB room than the fans are. We will see.

That is not how it works - unfortunately your understanding is incorrect. If you catch the ball and while you have control it hits the ground - it will remain a catch. If your hands are under part of it, but before you have control it hit the grounds and bounces up - then it is incomplete. Milano clearly had his hands under most of it, but it clearly hit the ground between his hands. I think it was the right call and I would guess the league office took a quick peak and said the call was fine.