transplantbillsfan
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Someone told me to come look at this thread, so I did. Of course, it's impossible to read the whole thing or, frankly, to even follow the last couple of pages. Anyway, I'll tell you what I think about Tyrod. A lot of you know me and maybe you've heard it before.
1. I like Taylor. Great athlete, good arm, dedication, running is a plus. I've heard all the arguments about anticipation, throwing people open, seeing the field, throwing over the middle, too short. All possible, but I'm not convinced of any of that, not yet. Could be true, but I think he's still growing, and I want to see another year out of him.
2. I SERIOUSLY doubt that the Bills were going to cut Taylor. There were plenty of rumors, and so far as I could tell, they all were started by the press, that the Bills were going to cut him and that Whaley didn't want him. Everyone got all excited about that. No one got excited when, in the last few weeks, all the press rumors were that the Bills would keep him.
Why do I doubt they'd cut him? Because he played starter-quality football for two seasons, because starters are hard to find and because the Bills couldn't expect to find a starter in the draft or free agency. The Bills were NOT going to start over at quarterback. They might keep looking for one better than Taylor; I think they should. But they are not going to leave themselves in the same position they did with Manuel - a rookie start or a journeyman failure as the only options. Taylor is a legitimate threat at QB, and until the Bills get someone better, they are not going to let him go.
3. So what was going on with Taylor's contract? My theory is this: Taylor is ambitious, wants to start, has a lot of confidence in himself and expects to get paid eventually. He took a cheap contract to be a starter in Buffalo when he left the Ravens. Why did he take so little? Because he had the option to get out after two seasons, and he knew if he started somewhere he'd get paid a lot more. That's exactly what happened. He played well his first season in Buffalo, and the Bills didn't want to lose him after the second season and they didn't want to have to match some other team's offer. Still, they wanted the right to cut him if he flopped his second season. Taylor didn't want to get tied up long-term unless he got some real money. So they negotiated the six-year deal, Taylor gets decent money if he stays and the Bills get the option to get out of the deal if they didn't like his 2016.
So then Taylor has a decent but uninspiring 2016 and the Bills aren't sure they want him on the terms of the contract. Plus, they want some cap relief. So they talk to Taylor, not to cut him but to get the right to cut him in another year without a huge cap hit. Taylor says you can't have it both ways. If you want the right to get out, then I want to have the right to get out too. So they agree to a two-year deal. For two years Taylor gets paid more or less what he would have made in two years under the deal. What did Taylor give up? The third year guaranteed. Why did he do that? Because he's confident in his ability, and it's much more likely than not that he can get $10 million a year somewhere in 2019, in which case he's no worse off than he was under his original Buffalo deal. In other words, because the Bills wanted to keep Taylor for 2017 and maybe 18 before committing to him long-term, Taylor got the right, again, to be a free agent in the prime of his career. Good deal for both sides.
4. Why was there no more interest in Taylor? As someone pointed out, he wasn't a free agent and it's tampering to talk contracts with someone who isn't a free agent. It happens, I know, when a guy's contract is expiring, but Taylor's contract wasn't expiring. If anyone had talked contract with Taylor, that would have affected the Bills' ability to renegotiate - they would have screamed tampering. Teams lose draft picks for tampering.
Don't think for a minute teams weren't interested. Six teams, at least, would be markedly improve their QB situation with Taylor. You think the Jets woudn't have grabbed him? And don't argue that no one was interested because Taylor is a marginal QB. Taylor's stats for 2016 were mediocre; in 2015 they were great. He played all of 2016 injured. He didn't have his #1 receiver, and he didn't have much of anything else in the receiving department. He played for a dysfunctional head coach.
Taylor would have gotten $15 million a year for a few years if he'd hit the market, probably more. Now he's going to start for the Bills for 2017. If he has a season like he did in 2015, guess what? The Bills will be back at the negotiating table AGAIN, because they won't want him to be come a free agent in 2018. If he has a mediocre 2017, they'll roll the dice and let him play out his contract. If he's great in 2018, it'll cost the Bills a lot to keep him. If he's mediocre, they'll let him walk and he'll get $20-30 million guaranteed someplace else.
5. OF COURSE, McDermott wanted to keep him, and if you want to say it was driven by fear, fine. You can call it fear, but it's better described as brains. You're taking over a team that led the league in rushing for two consecutive years in no small part because you have the best running QB in the league. He also happens to have a passer rating around the top 10 in the league over the past two seasons. You're going to let him go so WHO can be your QB? WHO? It would be a colossally dumb move in your first year as an NFL head coach to dump your team's starting QB in favor of no one just so you can put your mark on the team. Who would do that?
Shaw... first of all, WELCOME!!!
I see you're kinda straddling the same 2 boards I am... this one resembles BBMB more, obviously, in terms of participants and traffic.
And all the thoughts you just put here echo what a lot of us "on one side" generally feel. But you articulate it very well. Good stuff
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I agree, Tampering before a certain date. So where do these stories come from before FA begins?
Well, I think the word "stories" says it all. They're stories, not reports.
The offseason, especially the time between the Super Bowl and the beginning of Free Agency, is likely the favorite time of year for sports journalists because they get to do a lot of speculating.
Remember how concrete it was that the Bills wanted to move on from Taylor and another QB would be under center in 2018? It was inevitable... and what happened?
Actions speak louder than words.
And the next action will be the draft. It's going to be interesting because if Buffalo doesn't draft a QB in the first 2 rounds, it's another action that tells us something about OBD's perspective on Taylor at QB.
And for the record, I want a QB drafted in the first couple rounds. I like the idea of Mahomes in the 2nd if we can swing that.
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I doubt that's true. Nobody takes that much less if they don't have to. Couple of bucks, sure, as much as he did, no way.
Nobody, huh?
I could make a lot more money than I do in my current career if I moved elsewhere, but I really like where I live and the life I've built.
And it actually wouldn't be difficult for me to find a job somewhere else.
You have no clue what motivates individual people. You can speculate and guess. But you don't know.
OPINION- The writing was on the wall. Taylor was never going to see that $30 Mil contract. In My Opinion, It wasn't going to happen.
There, I wanted to help you out a little here.
This message board needs to take a course: "Facts Vs. Opinions"
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Alternate Facts? Or wild speculation?
Is it your premise that because they wouldn't pay TT that Doug Doesn't like him?
Wow... this from a guy who claims the Bills got their 3rd choice in OC and claims that Taylor only resigned with the Bills because there wasn't interest for him on the open market...
But I guess it's okay for you to use alternate facts...
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Actually, there is plenty of tape on Tyrod and the Bills have never shown much urgency at the QB position. It's always an afterthought.
Hmmm... this might be a very astute observation...
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Still on a bridge with no exit same old Bills. QB driven league and wishing for a mircle season from some other teams backup QB.
I wish you made an effort to bring anything new into what you say. I don't care that we disagree, it's how gratuitously repetitious you are that's irritating... and while there could be a satirical approach to your posts, I doubt that's the case.
My favorite theory is that Greg Roman and Anthony Lynn were working to hide Tyrod's incredible passing.
I've never heard anyone say this... are you making things up again?
....still struggling with processing the field after 6 years does not leave me with a confident outlook that his gray matter is "re-trainable".....how do you stop his propensity to depend on his wheels as the STEADY escape route?.....should be an ADDED dimension and not THE dimension........what happens when he gets KO'ed?....."run and done"?.....may have to add on to 17 years and waiting.....stay tuned............
To paraphrase:
"Tyrod is too dumb to improve"
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I can agree with this.
Tough schedule, Taylor not going to do well in WCO, Bills option to rid Taylor after 1 year, looks to me like a planned 3-13 season and high draft pick for Darnold next year. Tanking without admitting they are tanking. Oh those tricky Bills.
McDermott isn't planning on tanking... I think that's pretty clear considering he convinced Kyle to come back. That alone is pretty solid evidence considering where Kyle is in his career.
So if what you're saying is true, our GM allowed our HC to bring back a guy our HC thought he could win with but our GM thought he could not win with.
Seems really far fetched, but if true this team might be in serious trouble upstairs...
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my problem with Tyrod and the WCO.
the west coast offense is basically a ball control passing offense. the running backs and tight ends are utilized as much, if not more so than the wide receivers. the design is intended to have the QB under center and to have a three or five step drop with a '21' personnel grouping. most of the routes are timing slants to WR's/TE's and/or swing passes to the backs out of the backfield. this is the hallmark of the 'ball control' aspect of the offense. again, the WCO is designed so that when the QB hits his fifth step he is supposed to release the ball.
when the scheme calls for the vertical attack, with the 5 step drop, the QB is supposed to step up in the pocket and move around trying to find his target down field. another aspect is the play action pass that a mobile QB is supposed to be able to excel in. in this play call, the option is an option.
i think it is pretty well known that Roman's offense is based upon the WCO and he ran it with great success in San Fran under Harbaugh utilizing Smith. what we saw in Buffalo was slightly different due to the fact that Rex wanted a significant ground game, however the elements of the WCO were still there.
my doubts about Tyrod's ability to run the WCO stem from the play we have seen from him the past two years. for beginners, he is short for a QB. seeing over his offensive linemen to hit slants is going to be difficult. secondly, he panics in the pocket and often feels phantom pressure causing him to want to bolt and utilize his legs.
then we have the scouting report from his college days that is still as accurate as the day he came out. in it, is says that his accuracy on short/intermediate levels is not very consistent. it also states that his anticipation and ability to 'throw receivers open' is not very good and he doesn't go through his progressions very good. all of which still plague him 6 years later.
these are the reasons why i do not have a whole lot of belief that he will thrive in a pure WCO. now maybe Dennison is not going to run a pure WCO and hopefully will look to tailor the design of the offense to Tyrod's strengths. also, hopefully as the season progresses, i hope that Dennison finds what works and what doesn't, accentuating what does work and flushing what doesn't. i do not mean for this to sound pessimistic as that is not really my nature but if i am being honest, this is what my head tells me from everything we have seen the past two years, the information available and what they are saying they are going to do. one thing should be a sure bet, we are going to see primarily a pass control offense. i expect to see Tyrod put the ball up over 500 times this year.
One note in response to a solid post: your concern about him passing from under center on those 5 step drops and play action passes seem to conflict with the aspects of his passing game he's been pretty strong in over the last 2 years.
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my problem with Tyrod and the WCO.
the west coast offense is basically a ball control passing offense. the running backs and tight ends are utilized as much, if not more so than the wide receivers. the design is intended to have the QB under center and to have a three or five step drop with a '21' personnel grouping. most of the routes are timing slants to WR's/TE's and/or swing passes to the backs out of the backfield. this is the hallmark of the 'ball control' aspect of the offense. again, the WCO is designed so that when the QB hits his fifth step he is supposed to release the ball.
when the scheme calls for the vertical attack, with the 5 step drop, the QB is supposed to step up in the pocket and move around trying to find his target down field. another aspect is the play action pass that a mobile QB is supposed to be able to excel in. in this play call, the option is an option.
i think it is pretty well known that Roman's offense is based upon the WCO and he ran it with great success in San Fran under Harbaugh utilizing Smith. what we saw in Buffalo was slightly different due to the fact that Rex wanted a significant ground game, however the elements of the WCO were still there.
my doubts about Tyrod's ability to run the WCO stem from the play we have seen from him the past two years. for beginners, he is short for a QB. seeing over his offensive linemen to hit slants is going to be difficult. secondly, he panics in the pocket and often feels phantom pressure causing him to want to bolt and utilize his legs.
then we have the scouting report from his college days that is still as accurate as the day he came out. in it, is says that his accuracy on short/intermediate levels is not very consistent. it also states that his anticipation and ability to 'throw receivers open' is not very good and he doesn't go through his progressions very good. all of which still plague him 6 years later.
these are the reasons why i do not have a whole lot of belief that he will thrive in a pure WCO. now maybe Dennison is not going to run a pure WCO and hopefully will look to tailor the design of the offense to Tyrod's strengths. also, hopefully as the season progresses, i hope that Dennison finds what works and what doesn't, accentuating what does work and flushing what doesn't. i do not mean for this to sound pessimistic as that is not really my nature but if i am being honest, this is what my head tells me from everything we have seen the past two years, the information available and what they are saying they are going to do. one thing should be a sure bet, we are going to see primarily a pass control offense. i expect to see Tyrod put the ball up over 500 times this year.
I love this post even though I don't agree with all of it
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I read what I wanna read? You don't read what you post. This isn't me reaching for a conclusion...you have a longstanding, established pattern. Not just here, but long before here. What was it...19 out of 22 threads started on Taylor on the now deceased BBMB? What was the overall tone in those threads? Has it changed here? Do you really want to claim that you aren't obsessed and clearly think much more of him than you try to pass off? You're fooling no one.
You wanna accuse posters of agendas and a prejudiced mob? Are you exempt because you are on the other side of the discussion? I'm truly shocked you chose to respond in this fashion. Maybe I gave you too much credit?
And all of this hostility and name calling coming from you? This definitely reeks of a poster who has come unraveled.
This cements the end of a viable discussion on your part, so I'll kindly walk away knowing I was the one who handled this topic with common decency and stayed above the fray.
Sorry you couldn't maintain. I truly didn't think you would come unglued over what was simple discussion.
I hope despite all the hot air you just continue to put out here that continues to twist reality that you step away from the mob, take some deep breaths, and start considering what people have actually been saying rather than twisting whatever has been said in order to fit into your narrative.
You can feign your high road exit and we can drop this here, but I seriously think you need to "reboot" again and change your approach.
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Let me start by addressing your remarks on me telling people what they believe. Anyone that reads posts by yourself and a handful of others knows that you are absolutely committed to defending Taylor. You have gone well beyond defending TBH, and have moved into the obsessed category. You have blamed coaches, players, injuries, and every other reason in the book for Taylor's play, but nearly always fall short in your criticism for the man himself. What I've done is read what you and others have posted and have diagnosed it for what it is...again, it's easy to see. Talking out of both sides of your mouth is what you have been doing. Maybe you don't realize it...maybe you do. I'm just calling out the behavior for what it appears to be.
Crusher, you read what you want to read, plain and simple.
You discount anything negative I've ever said about Taylor, and I've said negative things, including saying countless times over the last 4 or 5 months that I don't think Taylor is the Bills long term answer at QB anymore but is, instead, a good momentary placeholder until the team finds its long term answer.
That's what I've been saying because that's what I feel.
That's
What
I
Feel
I feel it. I think it.
But guess what, just because I feel and think that right now, I might change my mind in 2017 if Taylor plays really well. I have that right because there's more football to see with Taylor in a Bills uniform.
You seem to view people who change their minds with derision. Frankly, it's a real character flaw if you're so stubborn you completely ignore reality and refuse to change your mind just because you held so steadfast to it for so long.
There's no one with a clearer agenda than you and your horrid cult. You're aim is derision, plain and simple. It's a sad, sad agenda. You've publicly stated how excited you'd be to start slamming all pro-Tyrod posters.
You diagnose away, but you're bad at it, so try keeping it to yourself, please.
And there you go again finishing the post off with a criticism of the coaching staff the last two years. You have once again validated my original point, thanks.
Read your post I responded to. Don't be a hypocrite. I know you have the mental capacity to compartmentalize arguments even if you're too stubborn and arrogant to actually do it.
And did you really compare myself and others who use the CoT with the Klan?
Holy cow!
Well, that's what you guys are resembling.
"Holy cow!" is right. You guys are pretty frightening in the way you're driven by your prejudiced mob mentality...
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1) The same can be said with TT and he has a much smaller frame.....if Vegas had odds on who's most likely to get hurt, I'd say TT would be a better bet than Newton.....
Actually I think Newton would be more likely to get those odds. Newton seeks contact all the time while Taylor is elusive and evades it. I don't care how big Newton is, he can't keep taking hits the way he has been for the start of his career and expect to last another 10 years.
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What I was trying to say, and what you have failed to grasp, is that these posters keep telling us how good he was in 2015, how he didn't lose games like Oakland and Pittsburgh, and how injuries and other factors were all to blame instead of placing any blame on Taylor himslef. Then when other posters call them out on it, they try and tell you that they agree that he's a stopgap/bridge QB, and that they have no illusion to what type of player he is. To me, this doesn't add up. I believe they actually have a much higher opinion of Tyrod, and if you read the majority of their posts, it's fairly easy to see.
As to you're statement that there are as many reasons to believe he'll improve as there are to believe he won't, I simply disagree.
I have no problem with other's opinions, but when they constantly contradict themselves by excusing his play and blaming others while in the same breath saying they agree that he's not the guy moving forward...I have to call BS on it.
Wow Crusher, I realize that you have this innate desire to find a way to belittle people, but making stuff up and creating this alternate reality where everyone believes what you think they believe rather than what they actually tell you believe is just bizarre and pathetic.
A couple pages ago people criticized me for being annoyed with people who post opinions as facts by stating that because it's a message board, the fact that it's an opinion is implicit. That may be true, but posters like you, who post stupid (*gasp*... yes, I'm using the word "stupid" here, because you telling me how I think or feel is stupid) posts like this and especially the one before it implying that you somehow know me and it gives you every right to belittle me based on what you think I think rather than what I've said is just ridiculous.
You and anyone who uses the phrase "CoT" (which you so disturbingly and quickly embraced) are the worst form of cult on this message board... you might as well put on sheets, pointy white hats, and carry around ropes with a Neuss at the end.
I'm pretty neutral on TT. I'm hopeful that he will improve. I think it's possible that he becomes, if not a franchise QB, a good enough QB, and leader to get us to the playoffs. I also think it's possible that he flames out. I think the most likely scenario is that he plays 2017 somewhere between his '15 and '16 level.
All that being said, I feel like I am objective enough to observe that the "TT Sucks" crowd seems to have much more of an agenda than the "TT is Our Guy" crowd. And, I certainly don't see the sort of blind faith that some of the EJ boosters used to flaunt.
What's in bold says it all.
It's all we have to go on at this point, unfortunately.
I also think that you can't discount the fact that he was under the tutelage of a very good coaching staff and QB for four years prior.
Yeah, you don't discount that... that's probably how he improved his game from when he was drafted so he could win the starting job in Buffalo.
But has he been under the tutelage of a very good coaching staff or QB for the last 2 years?
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The CoT pretends that they agree with the premise that Taylor is just a stopgab/bridge QB, but all the excuses they make, and the way they keep taking up for him tells me different.
These posters absolutely believe he's something that he's never shown to be...they just can't flat out say it because it would instantly render their opinion horrid.
I'm convinced that several posters will always believe Tyrod is something more, even when he's off this roster, and possibly even after he's out of the league. What these posters feel for this guy is strange to say the least. I'll likely never truly understand where the infatuation comes from, but it's undeniable that it exists within them.
The future is going to hurt much more for these folks than myself. I suggest slowly preparing to emotionally detach yourselves from this awful obsession of a guy who is a RB impersonating a QB, and who is not doing a very good job of it at that.
Yeah... tell me exactly what I think and feel Crusher. I really don't know my own thoughts or feelings...
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When you challenge folks who say they believe he won't, it kinda lends credence to that assumption.
They don't put it out as belief, they put it out as fact. The phrase "I believe" and even the premise of that phrase is missing from too many posts, like the one I responded to.
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Calling people stupid now huh? This topic really gets to you man.....
No, I'm calling the idea that anyone can definitively say a player is all he is and nothing more when there are still games he's going to play in a Bills uniform stupid.
Taylor might keep regressing in terms of his overall game and be out of the league or a backup in a couple of years.
Or
He might be the Bills starting QB who has improved and helped the team to the playoffs in a couple of years.
The topic doesn't get to me. People who speak in absolutes about something they absolutely don't know do.
this caught my attention.
so who's stupid if he doesn't improve?
players can improve no doubt, some may not though.
I realize you believe he will, you have been more than adamant about that and I hope he does but you also have to leave the door open that there is a possibility he doesn't.
nothing stupid about that.
I believe he will improve?
I've said that?
When?
I wish people didn't just make stuff up.
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Tyrod has already played enough to demonstrate that he cannot be the long term answer at QB.
He leaves receptions, big plays, and TDs all over the field, consistently.
No, I'm sorry, this is wrong.
If this logic were correct, Kirk Cousins played enough to demonstrate over his first 3 1/2 seasons to demonstrate that he cannot be the long term answer at QB for anyone.
Rich Gannon never would have resembled a Franchise QB late in his career.
Taylor certainly isn't the guy who looks like the long term answer right now, but he has more games to play in a Bills uniform and if you think players can't and don't improve on their game, you're stupid. Sorry to be blunt. Not an insult. Truth.
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...how the hell can you judge Luck as overrated with the cast of characters that fumblin', mumblin', stumblin' Grigson put around him along with Chucky in the HC seat?..throw in "BUZZED" Irsay for good measure......you don't consider those to be mitigating circumstances in Luck's performance to date?...YOU can do better than THAT IMO...........
Luck
IS
Overrated.
I can judge him as overrated because Andrew Luck was touted universally as the best prospect to come out of the draft since John Elway. He was going to be the Lebron James of the NFL in terms of championships ("Not one, not two, not three, not four...") and in terms of production as the most "pro-ready guy" coming out.
He was going to be, undoubtedly, a 1st ballot HOFer.
And what he's been, based on those expectations that were set forth by EVERYONE is disappointing.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't want him over Taylor, it means there was a stupidly high bar set for him and there are a lot of prognosticators and "experts" who would never admit that, which is why you have rankings like these that are all about his potential rather than his play.
40-year old Matt Hasselbeck did pretty well in 2015 playing with that pathetic cast of characters, didn't he?
Exactly
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....so if Irsay relapses, releases Luck and Whaley grabs 'em, what's your tune then?....just more of your BBMB drivel......at best, he'd be #3 behind Cardale Whatchamacallit Jones.....good Lord....
Dude, WTF are you talking about?!
Me saying "Luck is overrated" does NOT equal me saying "Luck is better than Taylor."
Don't be a simple minded poster... you're better than this...
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Don't hurt yourself...
No, it's not possible for a quarterback to improve after 29 NFL starts. It's never happened.
You mean 28 starts, right?
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Try not to assume what I'm thinking. And to be honest, I don't even know what you and others have been arguing about for the last several pages. It's just a barrage of feces being thrown around. I thought you guys would get tired of it eventually but apparently not.
This isn't surprising. The Miami game seemed to suck you back in.
I'm pretty sure you've accused me in recent months of being a Taylor homer or believing he's our long term answer or whatever, whether it was at BBMB or here, I don't know.
If I'm mistaken, I'm sorry.
You've definitely belittled my feelings on Taylor, though.
And yes, the Miami game did something to bring me back a little, though not back to where I was after 2015.
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I don't care if fans want to Billieve. My issue is if the Bills front office understands how to evaluate QBs. If McDermott ties himself to Tyrod he will fail. And fans will have 3 more wasted years.
As always, speaking in absolutes as you mistakenly do...
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What are we even arguing about at this point?
Tyrod is not a long term or franchise QB. You'd be foolish to even argue that. He's a decent stop gap whose contract is structured as such and will likely be replaced immediately once another option comes along (likely through the draft).
With a strong running game and defense we can win games and make the playoffs with Tyrod as our QB.
No one is arguing that Taylor is the long term answer at QB.
I'm not, though I bet there are several (including you, Bangarang) who thinks that is what I'm arguing.
However, unlike the unwavering belief that many posters have that they have to "stick to their guns" and dig into their foxholes, I think Taylor still could be the long term answer.
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I think that 7-10 group is a bit jumbled up and can go a lot of different ways.
Yeah I'm not disagreeing there and obviously my rankings are as subjective as anyone else's, but for me, those guys are better based on what they've done on the field.
I'm sick of all this talk of Luck and his potential. Yeah, he has a ton of potential... doesn't mean he's going to achieve it.
Tyrod Taylor's Highlights
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Talk about laziness!