sherpa

Here is a direct quote from the union website. Again, not from me. "I happen to know the FO on this flight very very well 🙄 There is a lot more to the story that isn't being reported. This case in particular was much more a mental health situation than it was a simple ornery passenger from our Group Nine Flying Club. The FAs (#1 in particular) did an outstanding job." Just to explain how this stuff happens, after 9-11, law enforcement the FAA and industry reps got together to form policy/procedures to respond to various levels of passenger misconduct. As one climbs the bad behavior ladder, based on very specific behavior, stronger responses can occur. They don't have to, but they can. Very specific training is conducted on this issue. This lunatic lady did at least two things I'm aware of that cause her to be in the top category. If this woman wasn't restrained, it is quite likely something worse could have occurred.

I don't think you get this, just as you didn't get the stinky passenger thing or the cancellation because a group of kids refused to wear masks, insulted flight attendants and refused to cease playing profane music when requested. This woman attacked a flight attendant and was messing with the door. You don't try to operate a door, whether the primary entry doors, over wing hatches or the cockpit just as you don't mess with fire extinguishers, emergency O2 masks stowed overhead, or various things in the restrooms that you don't need. If you try to damage something you are going to be restrained, and for good reason. These people are not stupid and they train for these events at every recurrent training cycle as well as get constant updates on these kinds of things all the time. You may have an "opinion," and that's your business. They kind of know what they're doing and having anyone out of control on an aircraft is going to get responded to and hopefully before the passengers respond because that's how things get out of control. Let professional mental health people on the ground judge her mental state later. While she was not going to able to open a door inflight, she could certainly damage it or the emergency slide inside. You don't walk into a restaurant or movie theater and start messing around with things that don't concern you an are not your property, and you certainly are not going to be permitted to do that on an airliner.

How are you going to depressurize the cabin? No chance she was going to get the door opened.

Not to worry. It isn't scary, they are cleverly designed. Cabin doors, unlike cargo doors are "plug" type doors. Think of you sink or tub plugs. To remove, they must be pulled in first. Ultimately they swing out, but the first movement must be in, so the cabin pressure prevents this. Of course they are latched as well, by the big handle. Because they are so heavy, is a hydraulic assist that makes it easier. Got to thinking about it and did the math. At cruise it would take about 25,000 pounds to open the door. Aint happenin'. Less closer to the ground, but very significant.

Venezuelans are allowed to vote. How has that worked?

Actually, you don't want to deny access to opening the door. If something happens and you need to evacuate, it is desirable that the door works no matter who operates it. During normal operations, on takeoff and landing a flight attendant sits at a jumpseat next to the door he/she is responsible for. There are two operation to it. One is making sure it is closed with that big lever, and the other is arming the escape slide. If something happens and someone opens it with the escape slide armed, which it always is after starting taxi and until gate arrival, the slide is going to blow.

I added to the DB Cooper thing. That airplane was unpressurized, per his insistence. To answer your question, once the cabin is depressurized, the doors will open, if other issues are resolved, which I won't go into. Two examples. An Airbus took off from Miami, had some sort of engine problem resulting in smoke. On landing, because certain responses to the emergency caused certain systems to be unpowered, the airplane remained pressurized. After shutting down the remaining engine at the gate, the airplane started depressurizing, reaching a point where a strong male flight attendant was able to open a door. He did so thinking that the still existing smoke was an issue. Eventually pumped up on adrenaline, he got a door open. the resulting force blew him out of the airplane and he fell 18' do his death. Another story. Muslims do the Hajj thing. An L-1011 carrying a full load to the Hajj had a full flight of pax that don't do air travel. A few of them brought sterno type things and started cooking in the cabin. A fire ensued. The airplane landed still pressurized and folks were unable to open the doors. Nobody figure it out and everyone died in the fire.

Cooper went out the rear door on a 727, and leads to an unpressurized tail section. He also insisted the airplane remain unpressurized. Wouldn't have worked if pressurized. Completely different situation.

No you can't. It would take over 2000 pounds of strength to open one.

Won't happen. Attempting to open a door in flight is an attempt to take down the airplane. Any force, including lethal, is authorized. Aside, flight attendants go through recurrent training on a regular basis, and are trained in this type of thing, thus their actions.

See Apollo 13.

I always wonder when, if ever, people will understand that you cannot open a door in flight.

Bad "gather."

I am pleased that you call me an idiot. I have spent many, many of days in Venezuela and watched what has happened first hand. I am well aware of their political system. I am well aware of Jimmy Carter going down there to judge their elections, elections that were "democratically" conducted, as he endorsed them. Otherwise, he would not have gone. Want to tell Jimmy that it is not a "democracy?" He went down there to endorse a dictatorship? I would prefer to not insult posters here, but you sir, are absolutely ignorant.

You can "LOL" all you want, but it is a democratically elected government. Total failure, as they always are.

So I guess that means that Venezuela is your model? Good Lord.. the gross, abject acknowledgement on the failure of socialist economic institutions is astounding. How many generations need to pay that price?

This is the single most stupid thing I've seen the idiotic Charlottesville City Council do in the 22 years I've lived here. I drive by that thing nearly every day. The statue was a tribute to the Lewis and Clark Expedition, conceived and brought about by Thomas Jefferson, a local, and including William Clark, also a local. Sacagawea was depicted in a manner showing her doing her tracking thing. It was in no way "demeaning." An idiotic waste of money.

The pax bill of rights would not apply to Air China anyway. Per your post, I am shocked that the flight operated. Given the delays you mentioned US regulations would have made the flight illegal regarding cockpit crew duty time. What the passenger bill of rights has done is result in multiple more cancelations. When the forecast is indicating there will probably be huge delays, they simply cancel. This is most especially done when it looks like deicing will be involved. Deicing is a very time consuming and labor intensive operation. My favorite story of a crazy delay occurred in July of 2013. I was going from JFK to Tokyo, 777. Left the gate on time late in the evening. When number two for takeoff, was told the airport was shutting down for two hours. A highly publicized solar airplane was going to land at JFK, and they were shutting down all airspace as this 25 mph airplane came in. The original agreement that got them permission said they had to land at 3am. At 3am the fiasco would have been avoided. They claimed they had a tear in a wing and needed to land at about 11pm. I never believed it and it made no sense. Anyway, there are a bunch of international departures in line. Many European carriers do not provide "augmented" crews, (meaning one extra guy), for trips to western European destination, like London City Airport or Paris, since they are not over the eight hour limit requiring an extra guy. Still, you can't go over eight hours, son one by one about five of them tell ground they are cancelling and going back to gates. As this event was unannounced by anyone, airplanes trying to get into LaGuardia are holding and starting to run out of fuel. Three separate domestic flights declare fuel emergencies on land at JFK. A total idiotic near disaster. Anyway this piece of trash lands and we get airborne two hours late. Of course arriving that late in Tokyo, public transportation is shut down, so the passengers had to deal with that.

An odd habit if you consider various posts in this thread. By the way, for the individual who claimed that these folks were "hiding behind the rules," that is a grossly absurd conclusion. The "rules" happen to be the law and the penalties are massive. If breaking those rules intentionally, it can lead to certificate action and criminal charges. Further, there is no hiding. Data link messages are sent and an undeniable electronic track is created on all these things. One example. A few years ago Congress passed what was called the "Passenger Bill of Rights." It was passed to penalize carriers for extended delays without deplaning. I was a 777 captain. I once computed that if I ever broke that time limit, with all the passengers we carried, if they got the max amount, it would have been far cheaper to simply blow all the slides and evacuate the airplane. Know what the penalty is for allowing an intoxicated passenger on the airplane? $20,000. Coincidentally, the Mrs. and I have to enter that hellish madness known as US civil aviation this afternoon to visit our daughter and her husband. I hope I make it.

Probably should have added this on the end of my previous post, but doing what has been suggested by people who don't know the situation may not have been possible. I'm not interested enough to find out, but it is somewhat likely that these message board suggestions were not an option at all.

One of Van's best calls was when Calvin Murphy hung 68 on Syracuse when he did the Niagara games. What are the chances that hair is natural, untreated Van Miller hair?

By simply reading the media reports of this, you have absolutely no idea what accommodations the inconvenienced legally compliant passengers were provided, either by hotel and meal vouchers and other probable "awards" to lesson the inconvenience. They don't get published unless the passenger reveals them. And again, keeping a passenger's bags onboard who has been taken off a flight for non compliance with regulations the fed has imposed is an idiotic, illegal and potentially criminal action. I guarantee you that if I did that intentionally the FAA would have been after my license as soon as they found out. Same thing with other cargo issues the carrier agrees to abide by in compliance with FAA and DEA directives. It can get complicated, and things in the cargo compartment are a really serious issue. There are situations where it is permissible, and I'm not going to go into them anymore than I'm going to discuss other issues that frequently arise that have years of experienced professional and legal guidance governing those issues and informing those protocols. Medical diverts would be an example. Forming and expressing an opinion rife with hostility regarding a situation one knows very little about is a bad habit.

Wrong on so many levels. Not going to touch the above, with the exception of pointing out that they absolutely do not profit from a delay. Pure nonsense.

And I would like to point out that you don't know the regulations or protocols. What I "suggest" is what I know, and breaking those rules is corporate suicide.

This is an example of why people's views on message boards, when commenting on things they are unfamiliar with, should be completely disregarded, and I mean no personal offense. Doing what you suggest would result in an airline losing its operating certificate. In plain English, instantaneous corporate suicide.