Thurman#1

IMO most of that is justification, particularly the physical part. Every project guy has things to recommend him. Otherwise he wouldn't be picked. To me, the thing that makes me a bit hopeful is that one of his biggest negatives, accuracy problems, has already been improved with a focus on his mechanics. Again, we have no way of knowing this will stick, but especially if he isn't asked to play this year, he'll have a ton of time to groove the improvements in his habit patterns. That gives me some hope, that he's already well along the path of development. The other thing that gives me hope is that they do seem to see that giving him a year off or more should be their first and best option. If he's somehow way ahead of schedule, they seem like they might play him. I hope that doesn't happen. It's pretty much universal that he needs time. And a lot of project guys who get picked early don't get that time and it hurts them. The Bills seem willing to wait, and I think that improves his chances. I'd rather they'd picked Rosen. But I have some hope. I'm not convinced, and I think those who are are drinking Kool-Aid. But hopeful? Yeah.

Tell you what, I'll stop with the nonsense if you stop with the utter crap. If you don't think a QB is any good, you don't draft him. The Patriots ... drafted Tom Brady. The other 31 teams ... didn't. That's the opposite of luck, it's making a decision better than anyone else did. It wasn't a lottery. Nobody was throwing darts at a dartboard. It was a draft, where teams select guys. The Patriots put Brady's name on a card, and nobody else did.

You have deep confusion about the difference between facts and opinions. Sal and Leo are saying he was never much involved with the decision-making on the football side. He admitted that to them at the time, that he wasn't involved in making picks. He was always on the business side and it's pretty much universal among nearly anyone involved that he did a terrific job at that. If he was involved in bringing in Rex (Whaley should also carry a very large portion of the responsibility there), then that was a horrible decision. But even that's questionable. Yeah, he said, "Don't let him out of the building." There's no evidence on how much impact that had. Sounds like he's "retired" for good reason. If what's alleged is true, he deserves what he's getting. But Sal and Leo are saying just what has seemed through the years as the most likely thing. There's never been much or any evidence he's been involved in making the decisions. Yup, he's been in the room. No, not everyone in the room has much of an impact.

If you don't like it, don't listen. You don't even live in Buffalo and you're listening?

Info they want to control just comes out on buffalobills.com and in tweets from the team.

It isn't a requirement to be a fan that you must agree with all decisions made by the team.

Ah, understood. Fair enough. But they had two firsts and two seconds, correct? And their entire draft classes of 2019, 2020 and 2021. They had enough if they wanted, certainly enough to try. Not sure they wanted it or would have done it either, but it's all possible.

They didn't luck into Brady. He didn't walk into their camp and say give me a tryout and they said we never heard of you but what the heck. They first handled their FAs so that they would receive a comp pick in the 6th. And they then used that comp pick and drafted him higher than anyone else was willing to. That's a pair of really good decisions.

Gettleman didn't say he wasn't moving. He said he never seriously considered any of the offers. Might have ended up considering an offer for more than he received. Said he received a "very reasonable offer." Might have accepted a really really good offer. https://247sports.com/nfl/new-york-giants/Bolt/New-York-Giants-had-a-very-reasonable-offer-for-No-2-pick-117858343

Here's the Harrison Phillips one: http://www.wgr550.com/media/audio-channel/05-01-newest-bills-dt-harrison-phillips-one-bills-live Love the thing he says about his linebackers jerseys. Terrific.

You're way overselling this. First, plenty of coaches acknowledge dumbass moves. And McDermott never all but apologized to anyone. He's defended Peterman far more strongly ever since than he had to. My guess is practice squad, but I wouldn't be surprised if they carry three, though you'd have to guess that for teams that don't see Peterman in practice there's probably not a big demand for his services, so he would likely be safe on the PS. Yeah, it was a mistake. Peterman wasn't ready. But guys improve, and he's been working on his mechanics. They seem to really like the guy. The fans don't. But the Bills do and that is what counts.

Yup, every once in a while. Corbin Bryant was a UDFA, though it was the Steelers he spent his first year with. Groy too, though he spent his first year with the Bears. Chris Hogan. Lorax and Humber both, though again they didn't start with the Bills. George Wilson, Donald Jones.

No, but a guy for Allen to sit behind is. And it ain't like if you put in a rookie QB this team will suddenly be good enough to compete for a championship next year. I hear you, but Peyton Manning was considered one of the most NFL-ready QBs out of college in the history of the league.

I would disagree with that, because even Allen's QB coach Jordan Palmer freely admits he had accuracy problems, caused by overstepping and foot mechanics. Accuracy was a problem. It has been addressed and his accuracy has improved a great deal. The question is whether that improvement will stick. There's a pretty decent chance it will. But as you say, there are some other issues.

Yeah, 9/9/19, maybe. And as for the drops, yeah, he had them. And if you pretend they're catches his percentages go up. And if you do the same for other QBs their percentages also go up, beyond Allen's. I'm still hopeful about the guy but he's competing against a guy who's been in the league for four years and knows how to play in the NFL. Even the pundits and film watchers who really like Allen say he needs a year or more to develop. Mayock, for instance really liked him but said that the team that gets him must be willing to be patient. Exactly.

I like the new FO. Consistently smart and professional. But I have a few arguments with what you're saying here. You say that because they have a professional graphics package ready that they knew who they wanted. I don't think there's likely any connection at all. They weren't going to pull some graphics guy aside and say, "Here are our picks, don't tell your friends, make up a video package." Not a chance. They were keeping things very very close to their vest. Instead the NFL most likely had videos packages for all these guys which they released to the teams. Or maybe the Bills did it themselves, telling the same video guy something like, "Here's a list of the top 100 guys. Make up packages for all of them. They wouldn't bring someone into the loop for something as unimportant as having a video package necessary. I also don't think it's clear at all that the purge over the past year or so is about being a team player or that kind of thing. Just as likely ... maybe more so ... that they absolutely had to make cuts to dig themselves out of the horrible cap shape that Whaley had left them in, so they cut some guys, many or all of whom they might well have kept under other circumstances. And that they absolutely knew they needed trade capital to get up and get their QB and so they traded away guys for it ... many of them guys who were going to cost money soon to keep ... some, many or all of them guys they might have liked to keep if they had had a top three pick and had been in good cap shape. I do agree with you that they seem to be putting together a team with good character guys, leaders and guys who really care about football. And I like that as much as you do. I like Beane and McDermott. A lot. They seem to be making smart choices with great consistency.

So you're actually trying to hold against him ... the two losses in which he didn't play? Good lord, dude. That's a lot more indicative of your hate of the guy than of anything about him. Wyoming was 8-3 when he played and 0-2 when he didn't. And as Sueorangefan4 said, one of those two losses when he didn't play was to San Jose State, who went 2-11 this year. And San Jose State's only other win was against the 1-10 Cal Poly Mustangs.

We know it can. It has, many times. Guys like Brady, Brees and Rodgers have talked loud and long about how QB coaching has helped them, and the improvement of their results bears them out. However, the fact that it can be improved certainly doesn't mean it always works. There are plenty of cases of guys either not improving or not improving enough with coaching. And there are also cases of guys improving and then regressing in game situations. It seems that when a guy has time on the bench to make those changes in mechanics go deep into their habit patterns, into muscle memory, they have a better chance to make it work. The fact that Allen has improved - an awful lot - is a good sign. Certainly there's no proof that improvement will stick, but plenty of guys simply weren't able to improve. He has. That's good. There's a lot of room for hope.

Not fair to compare games here. I mean, in 2012, Wentz played in 8 games, but we are talking minimal appearances. In those eight games he threw a total for the season of 16 passes. Same with 2013 when he appeared in 11 games but only had 30 attempts. The way to compare them, obviously, is attempts. In his college career, Wentz threw 612 passes, while Allen threw 649. In those attempts, Wentz threw 45 TDs and 14 INTs while Allen threw 44 TDs and 21 INTs. Wentz had an 8.4 YPA in college while Allen had a 7.8. Wentz completed 64.1% while Allen completed 56.2%. Allen's 100 fewer passing yards came on 37 more attempts than Wentz had. Certainly situation, as in OL talent, schedule, etc., had something to do with it. But it just isn't fair to say that Wentz had more games, implying that Allen was much more productive. Allen threw more passes.

This really very much is a case of you not liking these guys. That's not bull ****. It's what's happening and it's why you're upset. You could be right. Or you could be wrong. But one thing is for sure, which college he wanted to go to has absolutely zero to do with whether or not he'll be successful in the pros. Flat nothing.

Feeling that Goff and Went were better prospects than this year's class is poor remembrance. At the time they weren't. This year's class is generally considered better than that year's class. Wentz wildly over-achieved and Goff too, to a lesser degree. What you're being isn't realistic. It's pure guesstimation. The fact is we just don't know. But going into the draft this was considered the best QB draft in many years. A guy or two will over-achieve. A guy or three will under-achieve and the rest will do somewhere near what they expect. That's best guess. So fewer attempts means nothing in this argument. You're the one who brought up percentage of passes to the RBs, and he correctly pointed out that that's the way a lot of the NFL is these days. Fewer attempts has nothing to do with it. Brady and Brees and a bunch of others threw a high percentage of short passes to RBs. And Goff didn't get an 8.0 YPA from throwing only to the RBs. Fair enough that Goff isn't quite a top ten guy yet. It was his second freaking year. His prospects are very good indeed.

Darnold may have been their guy, but no way did they panic. They had to know the odds were miniscule they'd get Darnold. Miniscule. Why would you panic when the expected happens? You wouldn't. And they actually CAN tell you Allen is a better prospect than Rosen, as plenty, a majority before the draft, thought so. The people like Peter King who had many contacts on scouting staffs and the results were the same across if I remember three reports, with King being one. Allen was the #1 or the #2, with Darnold as the #2 or #1. Feel free to disagree. It's reasonable. But there really is a way to say Allen's a better prospect than Rosen. It's extremely reasonable. I wanted Rosen, personally, but the fact that the fans liked Allen least means little or nothing.

Yeah, cause we all have the GM's phone numbers on our Rolodexes, and we all spend ten or twelve hours a day watching film. He's smart, he's informed and he's connected. Does that mean he's going to be right? No, of course not. There's no way to predict the future in such a complex area. But he's worth reading and discussing.

Yup, I can hear it now. Tyrod's the starter. So change the playbook so we can win with him despite the fact that the whole idea is to train the new guy in the playbook they want him to run in the long run.

The management is under pressure unless the owner is on board. The Pegulas quite clearly are. I don't see the pressure even starting until 2019.