Bills staying in Buffalo - The Economics 101

[yall]

If anything the NFL would probably move Jacksonville to LA before they moved the Bills.

 

I realize their desire to have a team in such a large market, but given the past failures, what leads them to believe that the 3rd (4th?) time will work when past attempts have failed?

[yall]

Apparently this is already being addressed.

 

Also - that simply allows one to be built. Someone still needs to pay for it.

[TorontoBuffalos]

the rogers center is not an option for a full nfl season. another facility needs to be built.

LA has no current stadium equipped for a franchise, either. another facility needs to be built.

the cost, then, of relocating a team to either city doubles, unless taxpayers are willing to share the load on building a stadium.

 

jw

 

Why is the rogers center not an option? Its MUCH better that the crap hole the Vikes play in.. Also... LA has a much bigger TV market + corporate sponsors which Buffalo has very little of. We cant even sell the naming rights of Rich Stadium... err Ralph Wilson Stadium.. let alone sell boxes to companies trying to impress clients... I bet sky box sales in Dallas exceeds tickst sales in Buffalo..

 

Jerry Jones was crazy rich from things other than football. RW isnt.. His wealth is going to be realized once he passes on and this team is sold. I doubt very much that ralph has allot in his personal bank account which is why he seems cheap...

[TorontoBuffalos]

If anything the NFL would probably move Jacksonville to LA before they moved the Bills.

 

I realize their desire to have a team in such a large market, but given the past failures, what leads them to believe that the 3rd (4th?) time will work when past attempts have failed?

 

For 1 AL Davis wont be involved...

[mannc]

This is an excellent thread with a lot of intelligent, thoughtful posts.

 

But I have not seen anyone mention the situation in St. Louis, which, in seems to me, is good window into what will happen to the Bills post-RW. I admit that I have not followed the St. Louis situation very closely (it seems like the only real attention it's gotten is a result of the Rush Limbaugh fiasco), but from what I understand there may be a lot of parallels between the Rams and the post-RW Bills: small market team with a woeful on-field track record whose owner dies leaving the team to her heirs. The only real option is to sell to a new ownership group, which may or may not be local and may or may not be interested in keeping the team in its current location. If I'm not mistaken, Georgia Frontiere died almost two years ago and the situation is not nearly resolved yet. I would be interested to hear from someone who has followed it more closely.

[BuffaloRebound]

Why is the rogers center not an option? Its MUCH better that the crap hole the Vikes play in.. Also... LA has a much bigger TV market + corporate sponsors which Buffalo has very little of. We cant even sell the naming rights of Rich Stadium... err Ralph Wilson Stadium.. let alone sell boxes to companies trying to impress clients... I bet sky box sales in Dallas exceeds tickst sales in Buffalo..

 

Jerry Jones was crazy rich from things other than football. RW isnt.. His wealth is going to be realized once he passes on and this team is sold. I doubt very much that ralph has allot in his personal bank account which is why he seems cheap...

 

What's a lot to you? $300-400m probably not. $100-200m definitely. Ralph has enough money to donate millions to charities and causes like the one in South Florida credited to helping Kevin Everett.

[MURTR]

I think our best hope is for Jax. to continue to suck. If they can be the team to move to LA (their new stadium is approved), then I think we should be ok for the time being. I think when the time comes for a new stadium in Buffalo is when the team has the best chance of leaving.

 

Does anyone know of any other large markets the NFL would be interested in trying to tap next outside of LA?

[buffalobillsfootball]

Bottom line: BILLS are bigger than Buffalo, NY. Green Bay, Jacksonville, and New Orleans already prove that market size means nothing.

 

The NFL knows and acknowledges Bills loyalty is huge and stretches the world.

 

Bills aren't going anywhere. Period.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

I don't think people properly realize that the American economy will NEVER come back in the style we were used to. I do a lot of business in China and they are basically going to kill us this century, economically. And protectionism won't work because Japan does that and they have basically been in a recession for 20 years now because they won't let cheap goods into their country.

 

During tough times all these high prices in Dallas will not last. On the other hand Buffalo is ALWAYS in bad shape economically and we still sell out the stadium! So the ticket prices are low. We could probably raise the prices 20% and still sell out with a playoff caliber team. I would HATE to be in Jerry Jones's shoes right now. He has overextended himself and he is in for tougher times. Buffalo knows what it is like to have difficulties because it has nothing but difficulties.

[TorontoBuffalos]

Bottom line: BILLS are bigger than Buffalo, NY. Green Bay, Jacksonville, and New Orleans already prove that market size means nothing.

 

The NFL knows and acknowledges Bills loyalty is huge and stretches the world.

 

Bills aren't going anywhere. Period.

 

is this is when the dillusionals wake up?

 

heres an interesting study by Money Mag on Buffalo NY comparing it to top 10 places to live.

 

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bp.../PL3611000.html

 

interesting stats to me are

 

• • 
    

median family income is less than 1/2 of other areas

[*]higher taxes

[*]job growth

[*]home prices

[*]test scores... (really? should i ask for my money back from UB?)

[*]Crime rate (i thought Buffalo was safe!)

[*]How many bars and restaurants... AMAZING! Maybe that has something to do with the cardiac mortality rate...

 

 

 

To me this all adds up to a factor of why the bills will be leaving buffalo... Sad to say...

[Keukasmallies]

Interesting debate. It highlights the point that I've been making all along: The Buffalo Bills "company" is a lucrative venture and there is absolutely no incentive to upgrade the product the "company" produces! The product is sold out even before it is produced--year after year. Nothing succeeds like success!

[TorontoBuffalos]

Interesting debate. It highlights the point that I've been making all along: The Buffalo Bills "company" is a lucrative venture and there is absolutely no incentive to upgrade the product the "company" produces! The product is sold out even before it is produced--year after year. Nothing succeeds like success!

 

True...

 

 

Heres an interesting stat... the worlds fastest growing franchise in the last 20 years has been Starbucks...

 

Theres 15 in Buffalo

 

Theres 636 in LA

[JohnC]

from what i know, if that question was asked, i think the negotiations would have ended right there. that is not a subject Mr. Wilson is willing to talk about.

 

and note, when I said "region," i meant the NFL desires having a franchise in this "region," preferrably Buffalo-Toronto and not merely Toronto.

 

jw

John W., Whoever has the money decides how the team and organization is structured. If the Toronto group takes over it is going to be a TORONTO-buffalo team. The communication empire that the Rogers group controls is in Canada.

 

I agree with your comment that the subject of purchase was not formally discussed because the baron owner of the Bills won't tolerate the subject matter. But it would be naive to think that in the extended negotiations to move some games to Toronto there weren't hints in what the Toronto group was willing to offer when the team was on the auction block.

 

As I stated in a prior posting because some Bills' games are already played in Toronto a canadian group can make the claim that the team is not being relocated so much as the present market is extended.

 

In Baltimore and Miami owners (Modell and Huizenga) who were selling their respective teams allowed local buyers to buy into the team and give them an option to buy so the team would stay in their present localities. The situations are not quite comparable to Buffalo's situation because in Baltimore they had a new stadium in place; however, if an owner wanted to arrangements could be made to ensure a franchise is not moved. Why wouldn't Wilson make the same arrangements? Because Ralph is Ralph. Every nickel and dime counts whether you are at the doorstep to the next destination or you are six feet under ground.

[SlamnSam]

Both good points.

 

About 2/3 of the NFL's money comes from the TV deal. The players get about 2/3 of team revenue. So, more or less, the TV contract goes to pay the players. That is currently how it works, with the salary cap.

 

Yes, I was comparing the top (Dallas) against one of the bottom (Bills). To show the large gap between the two. Of course the other teams, or the Bills in another city, would not likely come close to Dallas. That's why I said double the ticket price instead of 3 times. Maybe 1.5 times would have been a little better.

 

I tried to keep the original post simple, but the corporate box money is not shared. So the big market teams have that to draw on once the salary cap goes away.

 

It all adds up to the small market teams getting screwed.

 

Except with the Bills. The TV money goes mostly in Ralph Wilsons pocket, not the players. Ole ralph doesnt spend a penny on this team, unlike the other owners they want to win.

[SuperKillerRobots]

I will keep it short and not so sweet.

 

Dallas Cowboys - Seating capacity 112,000 (including standing area) at an average ticket price of $160 (Wow!).

This works out to $17,920,000 per game just in ticket sales.

 

Buffalo Bills - Seating capacity 73,967 at an average ticket price of $51

This works out to $3,772,317 per game just in ticket sales.

 

We will ignore luxury box income, concession, and parking income (which all favor Dallas VERY heavily) for the sake of simplicity. But you get the point.

 

So, because we are in the era of profit sharing in the NFL, Jimmy Jones in particular, but most NFL owners get boned in a major way when playing the Bills. The Cheatriats, with the second highest per ticket price in the NFL, have to suffer with this every year.

 

So, if the NFL owners had a choice to say, leave the Bills in a small, semi-destitute market like Buffalo and keep the price structure the same. Or have them go somewhere that the ticket prices could double (along with the parking etc.). What do you think they would do? What would you do if you were in their shoes?

 

That has been true for quite some time. But now it is about to get even more interesting. No salary cap. So Jimmy Jones and the other big market owners can throw gobs of cash at the top players to stack their teams. Think Steinbrenner but for football. What are the small market teams going to do? You got it, bend over.

 

I have no crystal ball and I certainly am not a NFL owner and do not claim to have any inside information. And of course I could be all wrong. But looking at it from a business/economic viewpoint, this is how the numbers add up for me.

 

As with the "True fans only" thread, please serious responses only. No reason for "real" fans to tell me I suck for bringing this up. I already know how you feel about the whole Bills Moving subject.

 

Thanks.

 

You are very right with your calculations, but I think you overestimate the affect of no cap. It's tough for the Bills to stay in the financial picture in the NFL when you compare them to the top teams, but I do think that is a fair comparison because we have a potential for ownership change, which makes us a target of this type of talk, whereas Cinn, Cleve, etc aren't in that much better financial shape, but do have committed owners who are staying put.

 

I think that having no cap will actually benefit the owners, since there will be no floor. This will take money away from the players and put it in the owners pockets, which should curb their desire for squeezing as much team-related revenue as possible out of each team. You will see the top clubs finance-wise spend money, but it'll also be harder to get free agents in their primes due to tighter FA restrictions that will come with the no cap. It's not going to be like FA is now without spending limits. Basically what I see the owners doing is taking money away from the players one way or another after the new CBA comes out.

[lifefan]

With all that being said about stadium generated revenue and all, I still don't understand how a franchise like Buffalo is "under the gun" to potentially be a candidate to move to "greener pastures." Why aren't other small market teams out there facing the same uncertainty year after year? You don't hear about them worrying about moving all the time. If Ralph was younger, or there was a different local owner, would all of this just go away?

[JohnC]

With all that being said about stadium generated revenue and all, I still don't understand how a franchise like Buffalo is "under the gun" to potentially be a candidate to move to "greener pastures." Why aren't other small market teams out there facing the same uncertainty year after year? You don't hear about them worrying about moving all the time. If Ralph was younger, or there was a different local owner, would all of this just go away?

 

Ralph has used the threat to move for half a century. That persistent threat has gotten him a new stadium, upgrades and a sweetheart lease. The region has been under the gun by Wilson because that is how he is able to extract more and more concessions. The franchise has been very profitable for him. He wants more. That is how he operates. Ralph is about making money. He is good at it. As far as winning games that is a lesser concern.

[Flbillsfan#1]

I don't think people properly realize that the American economy will NEVER come back in the style we were used to. I do a lot of business in China and they are basically going to kill us this century, economically. And protectionism won't work because Japan does that and they have basically been in a recession for 20 years now because they won't let cheap goods into their country.

 

During tough times all these high prices in Dallas will not last. On the other hand Buffalo is ALWAYS in bad shape economically and we still sell out the stadium! So the ticket prices are low. We could probably raise the prices 20% and still sell out with a playoff caliber team. I would HATE to be in Jerry Jones's shoes right now. He has overextended himself and he is in for tougher times. Buffalo knows what it is like to have difficulties because it has nothing but difficulties.

Good Post. A lot of people don't seem to get the fact that higher ticket prices do not mean more profit. Jerry Jones & many other owners have a HUGE NUT to crack paying off what they owe. Those fancy new stadiums cost PLENTY & will take a long time to be paid off.

 

A new owner could keep the team in Buffalo with only the cost of the team to pay off. The stadium is paid for & could be updated much cheaper than building a new one. I am sure the State & county would pay for renovations with a new long term lease, & ANYONE that wants a new stadium to be built in Buffalo should think again. Season ticket holders in particular should beware of a new stadium.

 

In Tampa when the new stadium was built, people that had seats on the 50 yd line 10 rows up were moved to the 20 yd line 40 rows up. On top of that they were forced to pay a seat license of a about $1500 & the cost per ticket went up about 150%. ALL of the PRIME seats were held for Corporations, people that had season tickets for YEARS could not get a crack at them.

[Ray]

Are we on the Bills are moving thread again and is the paranoia setting in? Let's do the math yet again.

Someone in Toronto has to A) Buy the team B) Build a NEW stadium and C) Pay the relocation fee to the NFL

 

So conservatively that is 3B dollars.....I am sure creditors are lining up to give someone 2B...assuming Rogers' family has 1B in liquid cash they want to spend for a hobby. 2B to make maybe 15-20M a year in profit? The debt service at 6% on 2B is 120 MILLION a year....not even touching the principal! Not sure Canadians are interested in giving Rogers' et al the money for a stadium....let me answer it for you...they are NOT. Hey one of the best things for the Bills was Toronto not getting the Olympics....otherwise they would have a stadium they would need to fill.

We're not even touching the topic of disbanding the CFL if the NFL goes to Toronto.

Face it guys/gals, the Bills are staying in Buffalo. The downside is that since Ralph never pressed the state for a new Stadium we will not get one but that's okay as long as the Bills stay...which they will.

[JohnC]

True...

 

 

Heres an interesting stat... the worlds fastest growing franchise in the last 20 years has been Starbucks...

 

Theres 15 in Buffalo

 

Theres 636 in LA

 

Buffalo has more Dunkin'Donuts and Tim Horton shops. Good coffee for a more reasonable price.