Bill from NYC Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 After a certain income (it isn't high either) kids cannot even deduct the interest on the student loans. That is truly unfair. Just letting them deduct the interest would give the economy a positive jolt. Where are the thieves from both parties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Hell, I went to state school and I wish I had done this. Unfortunetly, there used to be a stigma attached to attending a community college. It was viewed as for the poor or dumb kids. I'm glad to see that is changing before my kids reach that age. True, not to mention the fact that not all courses transfer over to a 4-year school. Thus the kid will have to spend a 3rd year at the 4-year school to get his/her bachelors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 elite universities used to admit students based on high school accomplishments. now that the economy has tanked what matters more and more is whether you have the ability to pay for the elite education last year and this year more elite universities have turned down highly accomplished students because their parents did not have the money to pay the tuition. the demand for financial aid has skyrocketed and the best schools can no longer award loans/grants to all the students that need the funding yeah, it is very interesting what will happen. The super elite universities (ivies, stanfords etc) won't need to worry too much, but a lot of other schools will be opening up the doors to who can pay. Someone was telling me about Northeastern in boston and how the foreign students are such a huge part of their calculations - because all the foreign kids pay full boat. at the same time, a lot more parents are realizing spending $200k for a good but not incredible 4 year school is a waste of money if you don't have lots of extra $$$.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I just transfered rfrom le moyne to UB and even living on campus at UB i can still get almost 3 years at UB for the price of one at Le moyne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cugalabanza Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 The student loan route can be painful. I remember the Financial Aid office at Geneseo was a scary place. I had to go there all the time because there's always some problem with student loans, like they get delayed for several weeks or you get much less than was estimated. It was not unusual to see people crying there. There were a couple times that I thought my college career was over because my loans did not come in on time and the college would not let me register for classes for the upcoming semester. I thought they would cut me some slack because I was always a good student (3.7 gpa)--no dice. It was always a battle. Not to mention having to beg my landlord for extensions. I'm sure it's much worse today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 It amazes me that theses !@#$ing colleges and universities are classified as non profits. The government should start taxing the sh-- out of them like everyone else. This solves nothing - the only thing colleges will pay attention to is a decline in student enrollments. I was lucky because I was on scholarship undergrad - I did have to take at loans but they were not too cumbersome. Same went for grad school. The bottom line is that your lifetime earnings will be higher (on average) with a college degree. You have to also be smart / maybe a bit lucky about what you get your degree in. Those that get degrees in math or sciences (related fields) will likely do much better. Problem is that many US born kids shy away from these areas of study. Even in a down economy we are still hiring qualified people with strong data analysis (read - math) skills because generally they are hard to find in any economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest three3 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 most people are not intelligent enough to master math and science on an engineer or doctor's level. and while a college grad may make more than a high school grad, it looks like that will only be a true statement 10-15 years into the college grad's career. by that time the high school grad is a homeowner and debt free (from the start) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 most people are not intelligent enough to master math and science on an engineer or doctor's level. and while a college grad may make more than a high school grad, it looks like that will only be a true statement 10-15 years into the college grad's career. by that time the high school grad is a homeowner and debt free (from the start) Google for earnings data and you will find your assumptions about intelligenge and earnings (per your comments above) to be wrong. That is not to say the answer is simple as the issue is tied up in a combination of factors involving schools, parental preference, student preference and to your point perhaps native ability. I do not have children but if I did I would advise them (and help them) to learn to speak a major foreign language fluently and to develop math and science knowledge / skills. I just played host to my recently HS graduated cousin (I am much older) who will be attending college to learn "broadcast communications" in the fall. Nothing wrong with this if it truly is her passion but odds say that she will be less likely to find a job in that field (as compared to others) and her starting pay - and lifetime pay - is likely to be lower as compared to other careers that focus on math and sciences. Don't get me wrong I understand that not every student can or will focus on math and science. I am simply trying to say that those who do will improve their odds of earning a better living as an adult. Your final point is baseless, both or neither could be debt free depending on how they manage what they make and their choices about housing. I know people who earn $40,000 per year and live poorly. I also know people that earn $40,000 per year and live very well. I can say the same exact thing about personal friends that earn significant multiples of this salary. Being wise with money is not about how much you make (after a point) as much as it is about the choices you make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest three3 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 to be admitted to an engineering program i believe you have to have taken calculus in your senior year of high school (and get good grades). on the earnings point, consider the money being made by high school grads while their peers are in college. let's say their peers go to college for 4 to 6 years, that means the high school grads are not only making a wage during those years but avoiding piles of debt. so they are saving $20-$40,000 in loan debt that only grows over time and they are also earning let's say $20,000 per year. 6 years of $20,000 = $120,000 plus $30,000 saved in loans equals $150,000 ahead of the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 to be admitted to an engineering program i believe you have to have taken calculus in your senior year of high school (and get good grades). on the earnings point, consider the money being made by high school grads while their peers are in college. let's say their peers go to college for 4 to 6 years, that means the high school grads are not only making a wage during those years but avoiding piles of debt. so they are saving $20-$40,000 in loan debt that only grows over time and they are also earning let's say $20,000 per year. 6 years of $20,000 = $120,000 plus $30,000 saved in loans equals $150,000 ahead of the game Once again your assumptions are a bit shallow and miss the point. US Government data (which is now a bit dated - from 2004- but I do not have time to go through further research and aging analysis) shows that the average HS grad will earn an annual salary of roughly $28,000 while the average college grad earns $51,000 per year. So a difference of $23,000 per year. so let's just assume the college grad forgoes 5 full years of income to complete a degree and using your number takes on $30,000 in debt. So assuming they both graduated HS at 18 and all income falls to net worth (not realistic but easier for to create an example)- 5 years later the potential net worth stats look like this: HS Grad - $140,000 College Grad - ($30,000) the college grad catches up in roughly seven years. (total of 12 so far so both are age 30) - In constant dollars they both then have $336,000 (man I wish it was this easy to build wealth) Let' then assume they both retire at 65 (35 years later) and never get laid off from work or lose income. The net worth picture in constant dollars looks like this: HS Grad $1,316,000 College Grad $2,121,000 Difference $805,000 Point is that giving up 5 years to get a degree and taking on $30k in debt to do it is a pretty good investment. Take into account that that college grad is also less likely to experience periods of unemployment. and the picture is even more dramatic. None of this suggests that an individual should or should not go to college - just a very simplistic example that shows on average a person with a college degree will do better than a person with a HS diploma. I'm sure all of us can point to examples that disprove the averages (remember Bill Gates did not finish college). Bottom line is that people should pursue what they are happy doing. Beyond a relatively low threshold of houshold income (i.e. you have to make enough to survive) there is little relationship between earnings and happiness. Life is often what you make of it. However, if money floats your boat averages say a college degree is helpful in the pursuit of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Once again your assumptions are a bit shallow and miss the point. US Government data (which is now a bit dated - from 2004- but I do not have time to go through further research and aging analysis) shows that the average HS grad will earn an annual salary of roughly $28,000 while the average college grad earns $51,000 per year. So a difference of $23,000 per year. so let's just assume the college grad forgoes 5 full years of income to complete a degree and using your number takes on $30,000 in debt. So assuming they both graduated HS at 18 and all income falls to net worth (not realistic but easier for to create an example)- 5 years later the potential net worth stats look like this: HS Grad - $140,000 College Grad - ($30,000) the college grad catches up in roughly seven years. (total of 12 so far so both are age 30) - In constant dollars they both then have $336,000 (man I wish it was this easy to build wealth) Let' then assume they both retire at 65 (35 years later) and never get laid off from work or lose income. The net worth picture in constant dollars looks like this: HS Grad $1,316,000 College Grad $2,121,000 Difference $805,000 Point is that giving up 5 years to get a degree and taking on $30k in debt to do it is a pretty good investment. Take into account that that college grad is also less likely to experience periods of unemployment. and the picture is even more dramatic. None of this suggests that an individual should or should not go to college - just a very simplistic example that shows on average a person with a college degree will do better than a person with a HS diploma. I'm sure all of us can point to examples that disprove the averages (remember Bill Gates did not finish college). Bottom line is that people should pursue what they are happy doing. Beyond a relatively low threshold of houshold income (i.e. you have to make enough to survive) there is little relationship between earnings and happiness. Life is often what you make of it. However, if money floats your boat averages say a college degree is helpful in the pursuit of it. You have to factor in taxation and hand-outs. Starting with LBJ's Great Society program, the drive to make more and more people dependent of the Federal umbilical cord continues. The old adage still holds "If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can be sure Paul will vote for you." Your high schools graduate may be among the almost 40% of working Americans that pay no federal income tax. He may well get earned income checks. His children get free health insurance. Possibly school lunches. This Administration seems poised to go further. This carbon cap and trade thing (if you think Enron, Tyco and Global Crossing were something, wait and see). I've read many of the estimates - utilities costs increasing by $1,500, $2,000, $3,000 per year. A dollar or more increased gasoline tax - businesses will collapse or go overseas, millions of jobs lost. But your high school graduate will get a hefty energy credit. At the end of the day, the College man will be increasingly, heavily taxed to pay for the HS man. As long as the HS man continues to pull the correct lever at the voting booth. Individual success becomes lessened in value. In fact, it gets punished. I would imagine in time, we will all be saying what the Soviet workers used to say "They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work". Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans4e64 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I went somewhere other than UB, but had a lot of friends go there after high school. A different friend of mine didn't have the grades to get into UB at the time. He wasn't the student type in high school. He went to ECC for two years (which is MUCH cheaper than UB) and then transferred to UB for his final 2 years. He ended up graduating from the same institution (UB) for the same amount of time put in (4 years) as the other kids who went straight from high school, except he paid almost half the money the kids "smarter" than him paid. Who's the smart one now? I wish I had done that, and would advise kids to think about doing the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 elite universities used to admit students based on high school accomplishments. now that the economy has tanked what matters more and more is whether you have the ability to pay for the elite education last year and this year more elite universities have turned down highly accomplished students because their parents did not have the money to pay the tuition. the demand for financial aid has skyrocketed and the best schools can no longer award loans/grants to all the students that need the funding Not to be unkind, but why should they? This year's pool of college applicants is an all-time record. The elites don't need to 'award loans/grants to all students needing the funding' since there are 5-6 people of equal potential standing in line behind them who'll sign on for less. Harvard Yale Princeton Dartmouth Duke With a daughter entering college this Fall, I'm pretty familiar with the current situation. The private colleges and universities we considered actually stepped up financial aid to keep the applicant pool from choking on their sticker prices. Small liberal arts colleges made the best offers, and that's the road we're taking. OTOH, the big public systems are giving bupkis to out-of-state applicants (most likely due to the big surge in in-state kids applying), so they're actually the least-affordable option right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Point is that giving up 5 years to get a degree and taking on $30k in debt to do it is a pretty good investment. Here's another way of saying the same thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Individual success becomes lessened in value. In fact, it gets punished. In a word...bullsh--. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Not to be unkind, but why should they? This year's pool of college applicants is an all-time record. The elites don't need to 'award loans/grants to all students needing the funding' since there are 5-6 people of equal potential standing in line behind them who'll sign on for less. Harvard Yale Princeton Dartmouth Duke With a daughter entering college this Fall, I'm pretty familiar with the current situation. The private colleges and universities we considered actually stepped up financial aid to keep the applicant pool from choking on their sticker prices. Small liberal arts colleges made the best offers, and that's the road we're taking. OTOH, the big public systems are giving bupkis to out-of-state applicants (most likely due to the big surge in in-state kids applying), so they're actually the least-affordable option right now. I have one starting in the fall as well. Same route, midsized private lib art school, has what the kid wants, and with what they kick in cheaper than the state school route. Only one of the state schools was offering any scholarship but they didn't offer the right programs and it was only a few grand per year. Actually looking to see if they'll kick in a few grand on the sports and it may actually even be cheaper going away to campus than staying home and going to the local CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 It's frickin ridiculous. My wife went to this puny ass 2 year college before we had met, and owes $60,000 for a 2 year degree that she can barely use. No way in hell she would of went if I had met her then, but it is what it is. How the hell did she burn through $30k per year at a 2 year school?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I have one starting in the fall as well. Same route, midsized private lib art school, has what the kid wants, and with what they kick in cheaper than the state school route. Only one of the state schools was offering any scholarship but they didn't offer the right programs and it was only a few grand per year. Actually looking to see if they'll kick in a few grand on the sports and it may actually even be cheaper going away to campus than staying home and going to the local CC. I have several friends with kids either starting this fall and next, and the admissions process is just a nightmare. Amazing where some of these kids are turned down now. Va Tech used to be the safety school in this area, now really, really bright kids are turned away. My oldest just heading into 5th grade, and am hoping the demographics are a little more in her favor in 7 years. OTOH, the big public systems are giving bupkis to out-of-state applicants (most likely due to the big surge in in-state kids applying), so they're actually the least-affordable option right now. You know, I am actually fine with this. Course, I live in a state with an outstanding public university system. I hate to admit it, but before i moved to VA, I thought schools like William and Mary and JMU were private. Throw in every parents wet dream school of UVA being thought of as dam close too an Ivy and that being a state school as well, and I like the fact that VA is favoring in state kids BTW, our 529 plans based on the costs of going to a state school here in VA, so if the little chuckleheads decide to go elsewhere, tab is on them! If they get stuck with to much student debt, shame on them!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kegtapr Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 How the hell did she burn through $30k per year at a 2 year school?? Cocaine is a hell of a drug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The problem is that unlike other industries, college has not become more efficient, students demand more frills (nicer gyms, dorms, classrooms), and professors expect higher salaries as time goes on like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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