who did us worse, TDonohue or Marv 2nd incarnation?

[zazie]

The hiring of Jauron essentially means that Marv was responsible for roughly the same amount of losing seasons as TD.

 

Hard to believe, but there it is.

 

Draft wise, TD was not good, Mike Williams et al. But did Marv do better? An over-rated Whitner, a couple of busts, a few diamonds in the rough. Not great though.

 

Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD?

[djcalvin79]

The hiring of Jauron essentially means that Marv was responsible for roughly the same amount of losing seasons as TD.

 

Hard to believe, but there it is.

 

Draft wise, TD was not good, Mike Williams et al. But did Marv do better? An over-rated Whitner, a couple of busts, a few diamonds in the rough. Not great though.

 

Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD?

 

we probably look at Marv in rosier light because of his past accomplishments..

 

i'd still say TD screwed us up though, probably as badly as Millen did the Lions franchise

[zazie]

we probably look at Marv in rosier light because of his past accomplishments..

 

i'd still say TD screwed us up though, probably as badly as Millen did the Lions franchise

as bad as millen? Wow, you take a very dim view of TD. I think Millen is in a class by himself.

[djcalvin79]

as bad as millen? Wow, you take a very dim view of TD. I think Millen is in a class by himself.

 

small mercies i guess, 7-9 versus 0-16 seasons

[VJ91]

The hiring of Jauron essentially means that Marv was responsible for roughly the same amount of losing seasons as TD.

 

Hard to believe, but there it is.

 

Draft wise, TD was not good, Mike Williams et al. But did Marv do better? An over-rated Whitner, a couple of busts, a few diamonds in the rough. Not great though.

 

Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD?

 

It's hard to blame Levy as much as Donahoe. He had zero experience as an NFL GM. I think he did work as a GM-type up in Canada a little bit, but that's all the experience he had. If you want to blame Marv more, then you have to put that one on Ralph, for settling for Marv in the first place. No way did Levy deserve that opportunity. If you read some of the history of how those 4 straight SB teams were built, you will find that on the big moves Polian made, Levy's first instinct was to not make the deal, while Polian wasted his time convincing Marv. Check out the story of the Biscuit Bennet trade, and you can find it right in Marv's own book! Levy absolutely wanted nothing to do with that trade. He wrote that he held Polian up until like 3 in the morning until he finally went along with it.

[zazie]

It's hard to blame Levy as much as Donahoe. He had zero experience as an NFL GM. I think he did work as a GM-type up in Canada a little bit, but that's all the experience he had. If you want to blame Marv more, then you have to put that one on Ralph, for settling for Marv in the first place. No way did Levy deserve that opportunity. If you read some of the history of how those 4 straight SB teams were built, you will find that on the big moves Polian made, Levy's first instinct was to not make the deal, while Polian wasted his time convincing Marv. Check out the story of the Biscuit Bennet trade, and you can find it right in Marv's own book! Levy absolutely wanted nothing to do with that trade. He wrote that he held Polian up until like 3 in the morning until he finally went along with it.

Marv did a credible job as GM, too. It's just that his one huge mistake Juaron, was/is just SO bad.

[djcalvin79]

It's hard to blame Levy as much as Donahoe. He had zero experience as an NFL GM. I think he did work as a GM-type up in Canada a little bit, but that's all the experience he had. If you want to blame Marv more, then you have to put that one on Ralph, for settling for Marv in the first place. No way did Levy deserve that opportunity. If you read some of the history of how those 4 straight SB teams were built, you will find that on the big moves Polian made, Levy's first instinct was to not make the deal, while Polian wasted his time convincing Marv. Check out the story of the Biscuit Bennet trade, and you can find it right in Marv's own book! Levy absolutely wanted nothing to do with that trade. He wrote that he held Polian up until like 3 in the morning until he finally went along with it.

 

good point VJ91 about Polian - i'm not sure how much of Marv's success came due to Polian's wisdom in the background, but one would hazard a guess that it was a significant factor. look at what Polian did in Indy as well, that man is a genius and we should never have parted ways with him!

[todd]

The Williams and McGahee picks were brutal for the franchise, as was trading up to get Losman with a #1. Also trading away a #1 to a division rival for Bledsoe was another huge mistake. Donahoe got a couple good starters, but the #1 picks he wasted were brutal.

 

Marv looks to have whiffed on McCargo, another first rounder. Maybe he'll turn it around this year, but that is doubtful. Whitner is a good starter, but not a pro-bowler that you'd like to have with a #8 pick.

 

The hiring of Jauron essentially means that Marv was responsible for roughly the same amount of losing seasons as TD.

 

Hard to believe, but there it is.

 

Draft wise, TD was not good, Mike Williams et al. But did Marv do better? An over-rated Whitner, a couple of busts, a few diamonds in the rough. Not great though.

 

Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD?

[Arkady Renko]

Donahoe hired two bad coaches and swung and missed three times on the QB position (keeping Johnson, Bledsoe, Losman). I don't know if he was worse than Levy, but he certainly was bad.

[Bill from NYC]

It's hard to blame Levy as much as Donahoe. He had zero experience as an NFL GM. I think he did work as a GM-type up in Canada a little bit, but that's all the experience he had. If you want to blame Marv more, then you have to put that one on Ralph, for settling for Marv in the first place. No way did Levy deserve that opportunity. If you read some of the history of how those 4 straight SB teams were built, you will find that on the big moves Polian made, Levy's first instinct was to not make the deal, while Polian wasted his time convincing Marv. Check out the story of the Biscuit Bennet trade, and you can find it right in Marv's own book! Levy absolutely wanted nothing to do with that trade. He wrote that he held Polian up until like 3 in the morning until he finally went along with it.

 

Levy is held to less scruitny on this board than any former or current Buffalo Bill imo. It is easy to see why. He coached a team to 4 superbowls. That is quite an accomplishment. He seems like a very nice man who is very intelligent, and even has nice little quips. There are posters for whom I have a great deal of respect that are unwilling, perhaps totally unable to find fault in Marv. Because I don't fall into that category, I have been accused of "hating" him.

 

The truth is that Marv would never have been hired by any NFL team to be a GM at 81 years old, or whatever he was at the time. I am very thankful to Mr. Wilson for keeping the Bills in WNY. As a Bills Fan, this is what matters most to me but the truth is that our ownership situation is bizzare, to say the least.

Mr. Wilson hired a GM (Levy) who nobody wanted (and he wanted to coach). Levy in turn hired a proven loser as a coach, and nobody wanted him either. Jauron is very similar to Marv. He might even be more of a gentleman! I want him to win; I like the man, but it is unrealistic to think he will ever be adequate, let alone a good head coach.

 

TD couldn't recover from Williams and Losman. The Bills are too fragile to simply bounce back from mistakes like this. The 06 draft and Jauron continue to haunt the Levy Era. I for one suspect that Jauron's influence is dwindling and use day 1 of the 09 draft as evidence. I don't think that Jauron, left to his own losing devices, would ever have passed on Malcom Jenkins.

Yeah, I think that Brandon is biding his time, waiting to get rid of Jauron. There was no way that Ralph (who probably is the one who wanted to extend Jauron's contract) was going to pay him for 3 years to not coach this team. Still.....new or not, I refuse to believe that Brandon thinks that Jauron is capable of being a good NFL coach. He couldn't be that stupid, could he?

[/dev/null]

Bills record 2001-2006: 31-49 or an average record of 6-10

 

Even if you throw out the cap jail season of 2001 (3-13), TD's record comes out to 28-36. For an average of...7-9

[Bill from NYC]

Even if you throw out the cap jail season of 2001 (3-13), TD's record comes out to 28-36. For an average of...7-9

 

That is a nasty stat.

[OCinBuffalo]

Disclaimer = I am assuming that Brandon years count as a Levy years based on your "hiring Jauron" rule, and instead of having to call it Marv/Brandon, I just call it Marv. Let's face it, Marv left an impression on these guys, one way or the other. Also, Donahoe was following Butler, who we all can agree did a very good job both with us and San Diego after us. Levy was following Donahoe, so instead of starting at 0, or even a 3-5 point head start inheriting a playoff team, Levy was starting at -10.

 

This comparison is not even kind of close, but here goes:

 

TD's QB = Bledsoe and JP

Marv's QB = Edwards...and yeah they sure as hell drafted him for a reason, when they did, because he was/is their guy.

 

TD's O line...do we even need to talk about this in general? Drafting Mike Williams not included...it's all bad.

Marv's O line = stop gap/developed/FA/drafted players that have at least consistently improved...albeit not a very difficult task when you consider: Donahoe's O line.

 

TD's TE = Kevin Everett, Mark Campbell, Ehus = crap

Marv's TE = Royal, Shields???, Fine, Shouman, Nelson = crap and rookies we don't know about yet.

This is a wash position since we haven't had a great TE since Metzelaars IMO. Remiersma was up and down.

 

TD's WR = Traded Peerless Price, Drafted Lee Evans, Josh Reed, Roscoe Parrish. This is perhaps his only real bright spot.

Marv's WR = Signed Peerless Price, and a whole boatload of other stop gap WR's special teams people, etc. Has not provided a real #2 WR to compliment Lee Evans....until we see how TO/Hardy/Johnson/UDFAs pan out.

Drafting Lee Evans puts this position in the TD column...until we find out if any of this year's moves/drafted players from last year work out. It only takes one to work out to move this back into the Marv/Brandon column.

 

TD's RB = Again, do I even need to cover this? Not to mention the wasted draft picks on McGahee?

Marv's RB = Again, it's not even close. Lynch and Jackson's level at RB hasn't been seen around here since Thomas and Davis, and we are just getting into the good stuff.

 

TD's DL = Schobel...ok, but Donahoe let our great DTs walk, and he never replaced them. Drafted Kelsay, who I like, but I am in a minority.

Marv's DL = gets the benefit of Schobel, but builds on that significantly with trading for Stroud, drafting Williams in the 5th round, signing Johnson, and moving from 31st on D to 14th. "The Maybin Pick" will be one for the ages...we'll see. Getting rid of Tim Anderson(Marv)...vs. drafting Tim Anderson(TD) in the third round...you tell me which is a better decision

 

TD's LBs = Spikes, Posey/Crowell, Fletcher. This was the other bright spot for TD, this was a strength...but, as we saw, replacing 2 great DTs with one good DT(Sam Adams) who has one good year left, significantly hurts the effectiveness of the LBs in a 4-3 system.

Marv's LBs = Poz, Mitchell, and crap...and even Poz was inconsistent last year. Mitchell was a good signing. Dumping/trading Crowell, Posey, Spikes, Fletcher all ended up being good to great moves. However getting rid of ineffective players only solves half the problem. Major negative if we are still stating Ellison/DiGiorgio as Strong side LB mid-season.

Advantage TD for right now.

 

TD's DBs replacing stars with retreads, drafting Clements, signing Greer

Marv' DBs letting the overrated Clements walk, and drafting quality DBs....in a league that is moving away from LBs and towards DBs = reality, deal with it

Advantage Marv for Whitner, Youboty and McKelvin draft picks...and let's see if Simpson gets a fire lit under his rear by Byrd

 

Special Tems TD provided most of the top ST performers we have today in Parrish, Moorman, Lindell, and even Denney:), so lets give him some credit.....

 

....the problem is, you don't use the top 3 rounds of the draft to fill out your special teams roster and/or take gadget players and long shot RBs.....

 

And that's why TD<<<<<<Marv back in the 90's, now, and forever.

[Matt in KC]

The hiring of Jauron essentially means that Marv was responsible for roughly the same amount of losing seasons as TD.

 

Hard to believe, but there it is.

 

Draft wise, TD was not good, Mike Williams et al. But did Marv do better? An over-rated Whitner, a couple of busts, a few diamonds in the rough. Not great though.

 

Maybe it is equal in futility, Marv and TD?

Just curious: What part of the GM role do you put at Marv's feet? If you're one of those people that says "results" (our record, or the number Super Bowl victories) then Marv did about the same in his years as TD, maybe a bit better. (I'm looking at what /dev/null posted.)

 

As I understand it, Marv was brought in as a facilitator of the GM role/process/whatever and as a PR move. I'd say the PR is better now than at the end of the TD era, but Jauron still has not hit bottom. I have no doubt the game day prep/coaching is the worst now it's been in a long time. I like Jaron better (as a person) than Greggo, but think that the coaching has been worse. I liked Mularkey the best of all, personally, but play calling was horrid during his tenure, and I'm not sure he was ever really given the reins. Add to this the loss of Rusty Jones, and I have a hard time saying what period since the start of the TD period was best.

 

Because PR coming out of Marv's tenure was higher, and the results are about the same (if not more consistent), the edge goes to the Marv era.

 

Also, I think we're better set to come out of this in a year or two then we were then. Of course, looking back, I felt this way (and even moreso) at the start of 2003. Thanks for making me realize it's just the same old sh-- again and again.

 

So sorry this is pseudo-stream-of-consciousness. My cofee is just soaking in.

[Bill from NYC]

TD's O line...do we even need to talk about this in general? Drafting Mike Williams not included...it's all bad.

Marv's O line = stop gap/developed/FA/drafted players that have at least consistently improved...albeit not a very difficult task when you consider: Donahoe's O line.

 

Well O.C, maybe a little.

 

I hardly consider Jason Peters to be "bad," and it should be noted that TD did bring him in while Jauron and co. let him walk. Even if you don't want to assign blame to the "Levy Era" for this (not unreasonable I suppose), TD shoud get credit for getting him to Buffalo, dontcha think?

[/dev/null]

Marv left after 2 seasons (2006 and 2007)

 

until we see how TO/Hardy/Johnson/UDFAs pan out.

TO signed 2009

Hardy and Steve Johnson drafted 2008

 

Marv's DL = gets the benefit of Schobel, but builds on that significantly with trading for Stroud, drafting Williams in the 5th round, signing Johnson, and moving from 31st on D to 14th. "The Maybin Pick" will be one for the ages.

Stroud traded 2008

Spencer Johnson signed 2008

Maybin drafted 2009

 

Mitchell was a good signing.

Mitchell signed 2008

 

Advantage Marv for Whitner, Youboty and McKelvin draft picks

McKelvin drafted 2008

[Red]

I think that you guys have it mostly wrong.

 

Donahoe was an a$$, no doubt about it. McGahee, trading up for Losman, Bledsoe, allowing Pat Williams and Antoine Winfield walk, Mike Williams...with the exception of Parrish, Greer, Moorman, and Peters (2 of which are no longer with the team), Donahoe was a moron. Is it REALLY that hard to build an offensive line?!!!??!??

 

He ran the team into the ground and clearly had no plan.

 

Marv, now looking back, did not fare much better with free agents. Robert 'I can't catch' Royal, Larry Triplett, etc...

 

But Marv's drafts have thus far yielded more fruit. Lynch, Butler, Whitner, Poz, Edwards and the like are the type of players to build a team around.

 

But you guys have it all wrong putting it solely on the GM's.

 

You should be looking at the talent 'evaluators'. The guys who have been in their respective positions for the past 8+ seasons (coincidentally, the same amount of time that the Bills have been noticeably absent from the playoffs), despite 3 coaching changes, multiple turnover of personnel, Donahoe brought in 2 guys that never seem to catch any flak for their crap.

 

That would be John Guy and Tom Modrak.

 

They came onboard with Donahoe, and for some strange reason are still with the team.

 

I think that the drafts have gotten stronger those 2 years under Levy- considering the garbage these 2 brought in prior to Marv's arrival.

 

Last years draft will be interesting to see what impact it has this year (McKelvin, Hardy, Ellis).

 

The draft this year, I believe, is one of those that has brought many talented players for hopefully many years to come and closed some of the gap between the Bills and other playoff teams.

 

But if not, I think all of the blame needs to go to Modrak and Guy for their pathetic work this past decade.

[Alaska Darin]

I have a hard time blaming Levy for Jauron given Ralph's "history" on hiring coaches. We got exactly what we were willing to pay for.

[VJ91]

Marv did a credible job as GM, too. It's just that his one huge mistake Juaron, was/is just SO bad.

 

Your definition of credible needs to be explained to me. We all know why he hired Dick. Levy thought he was looking into a mirror of his younger self when he looked across the table at Jauron. Bang, Dick's in. Next, he brought in Fowler and Triplett. Next, Ngata and Cutler were staring at him when his first draft pick as GM came up, and he stared back at them and called Donte Whitner's name out instead. Next, Dick's first 7-9-0 season. Next, here comes all those millions he spent on Dockery and Walker. His second draft seems better, but that was followed by Dick's second 7-9-0 season. Next.....Levy quit. Please feel free to input the credibility he brought back to the Bills, and remember I did give him some credit for a better second draft before you get too carried away with how he brought in Lynch and Poz. Lynch has been a pain in the butt off the field and Poz still has plenty to prove. Other then those two, I don't see anything Marv did for the franchise.

 

And I have always been a huge Marv Levy fan as a Hall of Fame NFL head coach, so I really try to be open minded about this!

[OCinBuffalo]

Marv left after 2 seasons (2006 and 2007)

 

 

TO signed 2009

Hardy and Steve Johnson drafted 2008

 

 

Stroud traded 2008

Spencer Johnson signed 2008

Maybin drafted 2009

 

 

Mitchell signed 2008

 

 

McKelvin drafted 2008

Go back an re-read my disclaimer.