GG Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 100% standard ? We are not requesting that and I agree that no team is perfect. However, our misses far outnumber the hits. The one consistency we have is mediocrity. I am not blaming Levy or Jauron alone but this organization as a whole does not know how to win. We can argue till the cows come home about who is more to blame but the fact remains that organizations such as the Steelers, Cowboys, Ravens, Colts find ways to be relevant and competitive year after year whereas we wallow in the bottom with the Lions and Bengals. There are few mistakes that really set back the entire franchise (Mike Williams may be one) but all these collective miscues show up in the pathetic season record we repeatedly sport. Throughout Bills' history, the misses outnumber the hits. But I'd say that in the last 3 years, hits outnumber the misses. Again, compare the 2008 roster with the 2005 roster. That's where the argument should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 But I'd say that in the last 3 years, hits outnumber the misses. If only this were true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 If Marv knew he'd have to hire a has been, I'd expect his Ivy League education to kick in and use the leverage he had (RW needed him badly) to demand a little more power to find a coach. Marv knew he had some sway over Ralphie, and it's obvious in the signings of Dockery, Walker, Schobel, and Kelsay. Why didn't he then have some say over his head coach selection? In case I wasn't clear before, hiring of Jauron was Levy's biggest mistake. I think in retrospect that he wouldn't make that choice. But, again the choice was between Jauron & Sherman, as the front office's No. 1 choice Mularkey, quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I think the point of Levy's brief tenure here, as recounted many times, was to re-establish the team identity and direction. Gerry, the above was his biggest failure. Look at the Steelers, Giants, NE, and really any successful team that plays in cold weather. Their "identity" would consist of strong teams who can run the football, defend the run and rush the passer. Certainly we can agree on this. Levy entered the 06 draft with 4 picks in the first 3 rounds. He came away with a #8 safety, a DT and a corner. Then in round 4, he followed this mess with another safety. Are you saying that Whitner, Mccargo, Youboty and Simpson were to be the identity of this team? Remember, this was his first, signature draft. Well, a funny thing happened on the way to 3 losing seasons.....they ARE the identity of this team! Small, brittle defensive backs that play far away from the ball in a cowardly system that was implemented by the loser that Levy hired. Of course, Jauron took this stupidity to yet a higher level by dedicating the 08 draft mostly to the secondary once again. Levy failed Gerry. He seems like a nice guy but he failed miserably, and Ralph is ultimately to blame for bringing him back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Throughout Bills' history, the misses outnumber the hits. But I'd say that in the last 3 years, hits outnumber the misses. Again, compare the 2008 roster with the 2005 roster. That's where the argument should be. And I think the argument should be about the team's record especially 3 years after Marv took over. Granted he was only here two years but we are living the effects of the coaching and draft choices he made. As I said before, I am not willing to place the entire blame on him but he certainly was part of the state that we are in today. As an aside, you don't appear too dispassionate about the team in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Gerry, the above was his biggest failure. Look at the Steelers, Giants, NE, and really any successful team that plays in cold weather. Their "identity" would consist of strong teams who can run the football, defend the run and rush the passer. Certainly we can agree on this. Levy entered the 06 draft with 4 picks in the first 3 rounds. He came away with a #8 safety, a DT and a corner. Then in round 4, he followed this mess with another safety. Are you saying that Whitner, Mccargo, Youboty and Simpson were to be the identity of this team? Remember, this was his first, signature draft. Well, a funny thing happened on the way to 3 losing seasons.....they ARE the identity of this team! Small, brittle defensive backs that play far away from the ball in a cowardly system that was implemented by the loser that Levy hired. Of course, Jauron took this stupidity to yet a higher level by dedicating the 08 draft mostly to the secondary once again. Levy failed Gerry. He seems like a nice guy but he failed miserably, and Ralph is ultimately to blame for bringing him back. Jauron has a sickness when it comes to DBs. He probably wishes that we elected one for President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Jauron has a sickness when it comes to DBs. This was probably a prerequisite for Marv hiring him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Gerry, the above was his biggest failure. Look at the Steelers, Giants, NE, and really any successful team that plays in cold weather. Their "identity" would consist of strong teams who can run the football, defend the run and rush the passer. Certainly we can agree on this. Levy entered the 06 draft with 4 picks in the first 3 rounds. He came away with a #8 safety, a DT and a corner. Then in round 4, he followed this mess with another safety. Are you saying that Whitner, Mccargo, Youboty and Simpson were to be the identity of this team? Remember, this was his first, signature draft. Well, a funny thing happened on the way to 3 losing seasons.....they ARE the identity of this team! Small, brittle defensive backs that play far away from the ball in a cowardly system that was implemented by the loser that Levy hired. Of course, Jauron took this stupidity to yet a higher level by dedicating the 08 draft mostly to the secondary once again. Levy failed Gerry. He seems like a nice guy but he failed miserably, and Ralph is ultimately to blame for bringing him back. And yet again, people are blaming the front office for decisions made on the playing field. Why does the conversation always return to the draft? Last I checked, free agency & trades are still available to rebuild a roster, and I think the Bills have done ok in that regard that I don't buy the bull that they don't have the talent to compete. They can compete and should have been more competitive this season. I wonder why they weren't The long term successful teams didn't get to where they are without some pain first and set up the blocks. You do not build a championship solely by drafting OLs and DLs, and in each step you have to weigh the alternatives of your own players vs picking new players. While you may not like the individuals that were drafted under Marv's two year tenure here, the identity is set - get good, smart, competitive players on the roster. So far, they've followed that plan and the roster keeps improving year over year. I cannot say that there were signs that the roster was clearly improving year over year with Donahoe, and it was obvious that by 2005, the roster sucked. The stupidity of drafting many DBs in '08 was the direct result of trading TWO draft choices for a stud DT and signing another one. Of course, I think it would have been fun to see a DT cover a WR late in the season after the inevitable injuries in the secondary hit if you had your roster say. The salaries tied up in OL free agents gets lots of volume, but that's solely because of Fowler, which was an obvious mistake. But the bigger problem is that the line isn't asked to do what it should do best - physically overpower people. It only took until week 13 for the coaches to recognize that physics can work even on a football field. Same with the DL & LB, whose play mirrors the safety dance of the coach - play soft and don't make mistakes. Frankly, I don't see much talent superiority on the Jets' D, yet their aggressiveness won a few more games. So, I'll keep repeating this, Bills had the talent to compete and win the division. They did not. It's not the current nor the past GMs' fault, other than keeping the coach past his time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 In case I wasn't clear before, hiring of Jauron was Levy's biggest mistake. I think in retrospect that he wouldn't make that choice. But, again the choice was between Jauron & Sherman, as the front office's No. 1 choice Mularkey, quit. Establishing blame for this latest mess in the Bills history is not going to accomplish anything and we know it. Levy hiring Jauron happened, and there's nothing going to change that. But my frustration continues to be with this front office, which received the owner's seal of approval this offseason. So many Bills fans believed Levy would bring this team back from the dead in 06. And they were wrong, because they placed their hope in someone who shouldn't have had it in the first place. Marv was If the front office isn't good, the chances of building a winner is very slim. Levy missed on the big decisions and the team is stuck in mediocrity for the forseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Why does the conversation always return to the draft? Because Buffalo is a small market, cold weather team in a high tax state. This gives them a distinct disadvantage in free agency. They did have a few very good signings throughout the years. Spikes, Paup and Speilmann jump out at me, but the best chance of getting highly talented players here will always be the draft imo. If I am correct, this leaves us less room for mistakes and wasted picks. As a rule LTs are not traded, nor are pass rushing DEs. The very good ones are signed long term or franchised. Free agent OGs cost 50 million dollars, as we have seen. The best way to get these guys is to draft them, and worry about the secondary after the fact, especially for a team that plays in crazy weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Bo Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Nah... it was you who consistently hurled insults at objective posters who dared question Marv's moves at the time. Now that you've been proven wrong you still hang onto the misguided notion that we're "way" better off than we were before Marv came on — a laughable one at best. The Trent Edwards selection was a stroke of genius, I will give him that. I personally like Trent so far, but he has not proven anything yet. He has a decent pocket presence but apparently has some injury problems dating back to his college days and sometimes likes to check down too early. This may be due to the lack of some quality receivers, so I can't blame him completely. Point being....the jury is still out on Trent and next year should be pivotal for him going one way or the other....I hope it's a big leap forward. If he doesn't, we're still looking for a quality QB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I personally like Trent so far, but he has not proven anything yet. He has a decent pocket presence but apparently has some injury problems dating back to his college days and sometimes likes to check down too early. This may be due to the lack of some quality receivers, so I can't blame him completely. Point being....the jury is still out on Trent and next year should be pivotal for him going one way or the other....I hope it's a big leap forward. If he doesn't, we're still looking for a quality QB... I saw what I needed to see from Trent in the games at Jacksonville and against San Diego at home. Trent has a ton of stuff to work on -- his downfield vision, skittishness in the pocket, checking down too fast... but I think he has all the tools to step up his game. He's bright, knows how to manage a game and he also is extremely accurate. What he needs is good coaching, more playing time, and a better running game. I think he has the capability to be a top 15 QB in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Well, if he was just a figurehead, he should not get any credit for all the good things you write about. Can't have it both ways. Bottom line is that the organization was ineffective in producing a winner and Levy's short tenure did nothing to change that. Not true....Marv brought the crowd back to OBD. I think we have 16+ straight sell outs for the season, plus highest season ticket for last year in 15 years....Ralph wanted exactly that and Marv delivered..... Jauron was entrusted in building a championship team and he has not done that....I will not blame the personnel for everything....There are good football players on this team...Jauron needs to have better coordinators. Jauron inherited Bobby April the only coach he did not bring in and he is the only one who is doing an excellent job. I wish Jauron had put his faith in some experienced Defensive coordinators and not brought in the silly Tamp 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Not true....Marv brought the crowd back to OBD. I You should really consider looking up your facts before you post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Marv brought the crowd back to OBD. Marv bought Ralph time but the crowd never really left OBD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Hmm. The offense that Dick brought in 06 does have an identity. The identity is a stretch vertical passing game based on speed and timing with a power running game. JP Losman had the cannon arm but was deficient in other qualities. The group of WRs were poor and Peerless Price was brought in the improve that area. The line wasn't addressed until year 2, when they complexed it up further and decided to switch to a rookie tailback at the same time they supersized the line. The line was bigger, but it still couldn't trap and pull and still had some non-NFL players starting. The rookie RB brought his own set of limitations along with his talent. So they switch QBs to a QB who is extremely reluctant to throw deep, but can go to the checkdown in a heartbeat and avoids the huge negative plays. Now, they have a big mess. Some players brought in for a certain system and other players that can't or won't play in that system. So they swap out coordinators and promote a guy that has been a journeyman QB coach and in and out of the NFL coaching ranks with an alarming frequency and regularity. This is who they chose to fix the offense in the interest of continuity just like in Chicago. Schonert's contribution appears to be the "we'll outfox people" approach by establishing reverse tendencies in his play calling. Really, you can blame anyone and everyone, players, scheme, coaches, front-office. You can even toss in a weak, small defense that's basic identity is to defend the entire field, not give up large chunks, but can't get off the field. A defensive scheme that requires excellent execution by 11 players or suffers breakdowns, to be executed by a group of rag tag free agents and first and second year players. Add Marcus Stroud because we realize 2 years later that a DL of "small penetrators" is pretty much useless when you are playing from behind and getting steamrolled by the ground game and your offense moves in fits and jerks when it does anything. So, what about Marv? He had a hand in this, for sure. The reasons he hired Jauron are because of all the truly great qualities that Jauron brings to the table: honesty, integrity, hard-work, always positive, always steady, easy to work with and for, great character, been around the game a long time... but, and even Marv and Dick would admit this, he hasn't produced and ultimately that is the scale upon which he will be measured. For all his positive attributes, and they are many, he just doesn't win football games and build great teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Marv bought Ralph time but the crowd never really left OBD. Nope...We missed selling out the last 2 or 3 games in the prior season.....and we hit the highest in Season Tickets Sales this year since 1994........That is bringing back the crowd..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 As an aside, you don't appear too dispassionate about the team in this thread. You have to consider that I'm defending the guy who's no longer with the organization ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Nope...We missed selling out the last 2 or 3 games in the prior season.....and we hit the highest in Season Tickets Sales this year since 1994........That is bringing back the crowd..... If you'll recall, the NFL also did the Bills a big favor by making most of their home games earlier in the year. In prior years, the Bills had to sell December home games in the freezing cold that had little meaning. If you want to give Marv credit for bringing back the crowd, let's also give him credit for inventing electricity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Marv Levy was on WGR550 this morning. I'm sure they have the audio segment in their "audio vault." He basically reaffirmed his support for Dick but also admitted that at the end of the day, you are judged by wins and losses and he believes this season is a critical one for Dick. He re-stated why they brought Dick in and after seeing him in action, Ralph and Marv agreed he was everything they thought he was and greater (as far as being a teacher, a leader, high character man, etc..). As for Trent, he believes he will be an excellent quarterback but he needs a defense and some wide receivers. Marv admitted he didn't watch every game, but caught the few he could on TV, attended a few, and watched the play-by-play on the internet for the games that weren't on TV. Apparently he doesn't have the NFL package on DirecTV. Nothing new basically but I thought you'd all like to hear that MARV STILL BELIEVES. Not a bad summary. He also mentioned the Bears had to play at UofIllinois in DJ's "one really bad year" with Chicago which I thought was LOL-worthy considering he's only had one good year in his career in two places. I did think it was interesting that he singled out the WR position on offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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