stuckincincy Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 7 Myths about Detroit's Big 3 Mark Phelan, Gannett News Service 12/13/08 "No. 2: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM. The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income. Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Big Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Detroit Free Press analysis."... http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2008121...30340/1055/NEWS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 7 Myths about Detroit's Big 3Mark Phelan, Gannett News Service 12/13/08 "No. 2: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM. The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income. Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Big Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Detroit Free Press analysis."... http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2008121...30340/1055/NEWS Careful, Cincy. That's tantamount to a direct attack on management. Labor must be stamped out at all costs. Even if it means making up crap that people buy hook, line, and sinker. Not to mention it would force many of the IGMOS that don't know squat about the industry but take their talking points from Rush, etc. to really have to open their eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Has anyone examined the administrative costs, associated with benefits and the like, at the big three? I am curious how much could be saved with streamlined and efficient internal accounting and administrative practices. I have no direct knowledge that they do a poor job, but large traditional companies usually can find a lot of savings by revamping their administrative costs. My guess (and purely a guess) is that the big three probably waste a ton of money, that is hidden in their day to day operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Are they still asking the government to steal my money and give it to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 Careful, Cincy. That's tantamount to a direct attack on management. Labor must be stamped out at all costs. Even if it means making up crap that people buy hook, line, and sinker. Not to mention it would force many of the IGMOS that don't know squat about the industry but take their talking points from Rush, etc. to really have to open their eyes. Well, I posted this topic, that link for informative reasons. Not as a platform for attacks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Cool. 7 myths. Is it a fact that 2 should be out of business because they suck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 7 Myths about Detroit's Big 3Mark Phelan, Gannett News Service 12/13/08 "No. 2: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM. The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income. Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Big Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Detroit Free Press analysis."... http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2008121...30340/1055/NEWS lol please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outsidethebox Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 But but but, they make $28 dollars an hour and they are UNSKILLED! How dare they make SO much money! They should be flipping burgers in stead of making cars! How many times have I read the trashing these folks get for being UNSKILLED workers. Like people with a college degree are the only skilled workers in the work force. Me thinks there is a lot of snobbery out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilannie Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Are they still asking the government to steal my money and give it to them? This isn't unique to America. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c2cefd70-c7ea-11...0077b07658.html The Swedish government will offer automotive companies SKr25bn ($3bn, €2.37bn, £2.08bn) in loans and loan guarantees to ensure the future of domestic car manufacturing. The move follows the announcement of thousands of redundancies in the Swedish automotive sector and reflects the continuing uncertainty over the future of Saab and Volvo. http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articl...07_FORTUNE5.htm Poland's auto making sector has called for Polish government support to cushion the impact of a downturn in demand as the global economic crisis bites, sector representatives said Friday. "Several large automotive groups will benefit from this kind of (government) support. Governments have decided to help them. We hope our government will follow the good examples," Agnieszka Bloch, head of the Polish Chamber of Automotive Industry, or PIM. "At the moment, the Polish auto parts manufacturing sector is experiencing a 15%-20% drop in orders," Bloch said. http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=70971&cid=4 Japan and Europe sought on Friday to prop up their faltering economies after a $14-billion rescue package for America's top auto makers collapsed, deepening the worst financial crisis in 80 years. The US bailout's failure in late-night Senate talks will raise fears of an industry collapse that would jeopardize many jobs. The companies say one in 10 US jobs are tied to the auto sector, which adds up to several million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortured Soul Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Here's another perspective on what Big Three workers make that's not as favorable: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business...tml?_r=3&hp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Here's another perspective on what Big Three workers make that's not as favorable: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business...tml?_r=3&hp Torture numbers long enough, and they'll confess to anything. BTW, this was my take away from the wage discussion: And yet the main problem facing Detroit, overwhelmingly, is not the pay gap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 This isn't unique to America. Would you say the same thing if I was complaining about the government trying to wipe out an entire race of people? Bet I could find a few articles about other countries doing that too. The "Everyone else is doing" argument doesn't really hold up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 At GE this past year in Schenectady they hired about 300 new people for the factory floor . GE wanted people with at least a 2 year degree . They completely stayed a way from people that have a very good mechanical back ground . The other people that they hired , family of managers . in Japan Toyota workers get about $57 per hour in 2006 . http://www.japaneconomynews.com/2007/03/15...better-bonuses/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilannie Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Would you say the same thing if I was complaining about the government trying to wipe out an entire race of people? Bet I could find a few articles about other countries doing that too. The "Everyone else is doing" argument doesn't really hold up. Way to miss the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Way to miss the point. Oh great...another AD. MAKE a point, then maybe I won't miss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Careful... You will have guys like John Adams come here and say how crappy American cars were in the 1970's and 1980's... You may even get a retiree say how back in the 1960's they would purposedly mess up an engine at the Chevy plant in Tonawanda... You know to get more OT... Again... Let the American union "whipping boy" fail because of their past ghosts... We will all be driving southern state (and subsidized with tax credits) built rice-burners singing kumbaya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Well, I posted this topic, that link for informative reasons. Not as a platform for attacks... Sorry Cincy! 86 me singing kumbaya sipping saki... I really wanted to go back to purchasing "team built" Inidanian Isuzus! And thanks... It was informative and it exactly what I have heard from actual Ford workers in this neck of the woods. Phuck... There was a time when somebody would NOT take a job with the fed gov't at the lock and dam in South Chicago... The mills were belching and the auto industry steaming... The pay the fed was offering was considered to be a insult... Now look, we are making well over double and there is still growing tonnage on the waterways... It is disheartening to look down into a barge and see: "Made in Mexico" stamped on rolls of steel just miles from old and still existing steel mills... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Cool. 7 myths. Is it a fact that 2 should be out of business because they suck? Again... If you can actually admit to owning an American car in the last 10 years... I may agree with you. I still can't get past your past pre-consisting notions... This from a guy who normally preaches tolerance... Take a walk outside the law offices and yuppydom and actually sit by the side of a road and count how many domestic cars vs. others are on the road. Was that last sentence me being generalizing and intolerant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 At GE this past year in Schenectady they hired about 300 new people for the factory floor . GE wanted people with at least a 2 year degree . They completely stayed a way from people that have a very good mechanical back ground . The other people that they hired , family of managers . in Japan Toyota workers get about $57 per hour in 2006 . http://www.japaneconomynews.com/2007/03/15...better-bonuses/ Do they get national healthcare in Japan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 7 Myths about Detroit's Big 3Mark Phelan, Gannett News Service 12/13/08 "No. 2: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM. The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income. Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Big Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Detroit Free Press analysis."... http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2008121...30340/1055/NEWS Little 3's problem isn't output per worker, it's output per input cost. And a big component of the excess costs are a) union wages and b) pension obligations. Let em' fail and deal with those and other things like creditors from bankuptcy court ... that's when you'd really see changes that would bring their costs inline with competitive realities. We shouldn't be throwing good money after bad when our own federal deficit is spiralling out of control and most people outside of Little 3 are also hurting financially. Handouts for little 3 now just funnels more money to the source of the problem, delays proper resolution and costs a lot more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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