pBills Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Of course it's not but if GM/Ford/Chrysler ran more efficient, leaner, then they could sustain during cyclical down turns in the economy. Simple as that. You can dance around it all you like but union manifesto is work less, get paid more. Great for workers but bad for competition. Temporary joy for laborers but it's not realistic when competing in the world economy. I would say this is anything but a cyclical down turn in the economy. I really want to know where everyone is getting their union "knowledge" from. I work for a union, and I bust my butt and I am not making serious bucks either. Not rich by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Of course it's not but if GM/Ford/Chrysler ran more efficient, leaner, then they could sustain during cyclical down turns in the economy. Simple as that. You can dance around it all you like but union manifesto is work less, get paid more. Great for workers but bad for competition. Temporary joy for laborers but it's not realistic when competing in the world economy. So you want every one to make $15 per hour > How can they afford to have a house a car to get to work pay school taxes and put food on the table ? If gm and ford paid $15 per hour they would not lower the cost of the car they are making . They would just blow more money and not pass any savings on to joe blow . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 So you want every one to make $15 per hour > How can they afford to have a house a car to get to work pay school taxes and put food on the table ? If gm and ford paid $15 per hour they would not lower the cost of the car they are making . They would just blow more money and not pass any savings on to joe blow . Is that Joe the Blow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 money in blow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Still time to work out a deal . http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bipartisan-g...f-13633769.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 The Dems are holding out for nationalization, a government outright ownership or substantial majority stake in the auto companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 This kind of goes back to the discussions about the tax increases that are coming. It's not the amount that is at issue. It's the action. As a small business owner, it's my responsible to adjust my business in accordance with the demands for my product. We don't wait for the shiit to hit the fan when the economy is tanking. We anticipate it, and step one is to cut costs, particularly on items that may be considered a perk. I understand my dinky little company doesn't compare to the auto industry, but the core principles of management still apply. I have no problem helping these folks out, but not without someone proving to us that the management principles which were discarded during the economic downturn are being corrected. Based on their carelessness in spending $20K to fly a private jet to Washington, there is no indication that these guys have any clue how to stop their own bleeding. The idea of handing any amount of money to these irresponsible managers simply won't settle well with all the middle class taxpayers who just spent the past year crying about how the wealthy are too wealthy. I am absolutely all for major conditions being attached to any loan. If they go bankrupt we, the taxpayers via the Fed, would be financing it and attaching a ton of restrictions anyway. I don't see why a lot of those restrictions can't be contingent on them getting the loan. I don't give a rat's ass about the CEOs. And yes, the union will have to give a lot more as well (the pension should be taken over by the PBGC for starters). But the $25B is a drop in the bucket compared to what would happen if they fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 So you want every one to make $15 per hour > How can they afford to have a house a car to get to work pay school taxes and put food on the table ? If gm and ford paid $15 per hour they would not lower the cost of the car they are making . They would just blow more money and not pass any savings on to joe blow . People have to be paid what their worth. In our society, by and large, it's supply and demand. That goes for labor as well. If you have skill, you are in demand. If you are an electrician, mechanic and so on you should make more because you have knowledge and talent that not everyone possesses. Ive always been for profit sharing and I think this is the best way to go for auto makers. If you work there and make only $20 an hour you can pick up substantially more cash if the company as a whole makes money. This way employees get a nice cut of the pie and not just execs. I think that is fair. Great motivation for everyone in the company to do their job well. Everyone feels connected and included in the success. $h1t, I wish we had that here. We get a decent bonus at the end of the year though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 I am absolutely all for major conditions being attached to any loan. If they go bankrupt we, the taxpayers via the Fed, would be financing it and attaching a ton of restrictions anyway. I don't see why a lot of those restrictions can't be contingent on them getting the loan. I don't give a rat's ass about the CEOs. And yes, the union will have to give a lot more as well (the pension should be taken over by the PBGC for starters). But the $25B is a drop in the bucket compared to what would happen if they fail. In the short run. But I'm tired of the precedent that has been set with the airline industry and now the auto. There is no fear of failing if you're large enough. No worries, Uncle Sam will bail you out if you !@#$ up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 People have to be paid what their worth. In our society, by and large, it's supply and demand. That goes for labor as well. If you have skill, you are in demand. If you are an electrician, mechanic and so on you should make more because you have knowledge and talent that not everyone possesses. Ive always been for profit sharing and I think this is the best way to go for auto makers. If you work there and make only $20 an hour you can pick up substantially more cash if the company as a whole makes money. This way employees get a nice cut of the pie and not just execs. I think that is fair. Great motivation for everyone in the company to do their job well. Everyone feels connected and included in the success. $h1t, I wish we had that here. We get a decent bonus at the end of the year though. Most of the auto workers I know make around $25 per hour. Where they earn more is through overtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Most of the auto workers I know make around $25 per hour. Where they earn more is through overtime. Add their benefits and pension plan. Now what's their average wage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Add their benefits and pension plan. Now what's their average wage? So? This was negotiated on between the union and management. Everybody was happy with the groundbreaking concessions the UAW made last October. Auto stocks rose. Everybody was high-fiving each other over the board room tables. What happened in the interm? The economy tanked. That's not a direct result of the UAW getting a decent wage, health insurance and a pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 So? This was negotiated on between the union and management. Everybody was happy with the groundbreaking concessions the UAW made last October. Auto stocks rose. Everybody was high-fiving each other over the board room tables. What happened in the interm? The economy tanked. That's not a direct result of the UAW getting a decent wage, health insurance and a pension. I ask a straight question on how much their hourly wage comes out to with benefits and pension. Your response? So? What are you !@#$ing 12. You know as well as I do that the auto industry cannot continue to compete with foreign auto makers due to the amount of money going out to the employees (mostly the retired employees) in the form of benefits. I don't care that it was agreed on my management. They caved to the union and now they're going to pay for it. Not me. Why do you think the majority of private sector companies went away from the defined benefit plan to the defined contribution plans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 The oil companies should bail out the auto company...they need eachother... That is a good point ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 They caved to the union and now their going to pay for it. Not me. And that's why 99.999% of Americans not named Nancy Pelosi want them to shove it up their assss. They all made a choice. They didn't do anything to adjust to the changing economic environment. I'm not sure why we have to, once again, pick up the tab for other people's incompetency. I'm glad to see the latest position of "No plan, no money." These guys have watermelon-sized gonads to ask for this money unconditionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 No need for bailout, say diners near thriving car plant ANNA, Ohio (CNN) -- Many people in the diner know someone working in the car industry. They are certainly in car country -- there's an engine factory down the road, and they live between Ohio's major plants and the Detroit home of the industry. You don't have to go far in any direction to find a threatened auto plant. But the diners and staff do not back a proposed $25 billion bailout. The car industry in their neighborhood is doing well -- the Honda engine plant in Anna, Ohio, sits amid lots crowded with employee vehicles, ringed by carefully trimmed trees and endless farm fields beyond. It recently underwent a $75 million, 135,000-square-foot expansion. The success of the factory, which Honda says has built 15 million engines from scratch since it opened 23 years ago, has been spread beyond Anna, which lies in western Ohio between Dayton and Toledo. "Honda's really helped this area as far as housing, retail sales, the restaurant business," said Tim Rogers, who has owned the Inn Between Tavern in Botkins, just up the road from Anna, for 33 years. "People who are in here at night are also Honda employees. They have more money to spend. My business has been good since Honda came into the area." The Inn Between's waitress is busy delivering the lunch special of breaded chicken, mashed potatoes and green beans to a stream of customers who work at different places but all seem to know one another. Hear what the diners think of a bailout » The banter is raucous and sustained, and when the conversation turns to a proposed federal bailout for U.S. automakers, there is little support for the idea. Video Watch CEOs ask Congress to help the auto industry » "I don't think they should bail them out because ... obviously something's not right in the way they're running their business, and why should the American people have to bail them out if they can't figure out how to do it right?" September Quinn, the busy waitress, said after the lunch rush at the Inn Between. She holds the unions just as accountable as the companies for the industry's problems. "People agree with the unions because the workers want to be backed on everything, but then again, there aren't people striving to do their job better," said Quinn, whose father works at the nonunion Honda plant. "They've just got Papa Bear to back them up in any instance, and they keep their job. And you can do that, but I don't know at the cost of what." John Lenhart, a consultant with Plastipak Packaging in Jackson Center, Ohio, and an officer with the Sidney-Shelby County Chamber of Commerce, said any bailout should have strong strings attached. "Unless I'm missing something here, the key to it is, they should put in a game plan and execute it, with serious restraints and serious reorganization," said Lenhart, a former five-term sheriff in Anna's Shelby County. His Plastipak colleague Will Vetter also said any bailout should have strings attached. See how many plants GM has in your state » "If you just give them money, you will get same-old, same-old results," he said after lunch at the Inn Between. "They're not prepared to downsize their businesses fast enough and to eliminate their costs at a rate that will make them profitable." Vetter suggested that bankruptcy would allow GM to make significant changes faster, because a judge could void labor and supplier contracts, debts could be restructured, and Congress would not be involved. "I guarantee in bankruptcy you can move really fast. You're only dealing with one person. You don't have three or four hundred people you're towing along at half-speed." Both men said the nation and its auto industry will find a way to survive no matter what happens to GM. "The country's got some ills, but we'll heal up," Lenhart said. "We'll be all right." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 I ask a straight question on how much their hourly wage comes out to with benefits and pension. Your response? So? What are you !@#$ing 12. You know as well as I do that the auto industry cannot continue to compete with foreign auto makers due to the amount of money going out to the employees (mostly the retired employees) in the form of benefits. I don't care that it was agreed on my management. They caved to the union and now their going to pay for it. Not me. Why do you think the majority of private sector companies went away from the defined benefit plan to the defined contribution plans? A pension plan that puts the money away for the employes and can not be used by the company works . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 So? This was negotiated on between the union and management. Everybody was happy with the groundbreaking concessions the UAW made last October. Auto stocks rose. Everybody was high-fiving each other over the board room tables. What happened in the interm? The economy tanked. That's not a direct result of the UAW getting a decent wage, health insurance and a pension. So? Then why are you arguing against letting those private entities deal with their own issues? Why are you advocating for taking money of our the pockets of working taxpayers to fund the irresponsible promises of one private group to another? And do the same rules apply to anyone now -- the government guarantees all contracts? Or it is only for those with enough lobbyist money to throw around? btw, "excessive" would be the correct word to use before "wage" in your last sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 A pension plan that puts the money away for the employes and can not be used by the company works . With people living to 90 and 100 years old pensions no longer work. They worked when people retired at 65 and died at 67 but no longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 No need for bailout, say diners near thriving car plant Good find. I know a few people here think blaming the UAW is a right wing talking point, but when the auto workers themselves...the ones who are thriving in this economy...see the error of the Big 3s' ways, I'm not sure what else you can say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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