Bills GM/Front Office unwilling and unable to draft O-linemen

[San-O]

I went back and looked at the last eight drafts, which starts with Ol' Whitey's first draft in 2001, through to

this year's 2008 draft.

 

There were a total of 12 O-linemen taken in these drafts, and I counted only 3 that were taken in the

first 4 rounds. The current regime has taken 4 since 2006, with 3 of then being in the seventh round.

 

The scouting department can't seem to identify O-linemen to draft, so they basically don't, or the Hydra GM/F.O.

still doesn't want to pull the trigger?

 

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft...0&type=team

[billsguy512]

def. due to the Mike Williams experiment

[murra]

Clearly our current FO believes strongly that you can acquire OL in FA. That's why it hasn't been a major perogative for them. They went with Walker and Dockery, and they knew that was their plan, to pay big bucks and bring someone in, so it only makes sense that they haven't invested as much into the O-Line in the draft (however as you pointed out since '06 they've approached the position 6 times which isn't a low number-- they're trying).

 

I think that the major need of the team is Center, and we'll see if they approach it similarly and look to pick one up in the off-season. Personally, after the Mike Williams tragedy, I'm all for only picking up proven linemen.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

I went back and looked at the last eight drafts, which starts with Ol' Whitey's first draft in 2001, through to

this year's 2008 draft.

 

There were a total of 12 O-linemen taken in these drafts, and I counted only 3 that were taken in the

first 4 rounds. The current regime has taken 4 since 2006, with 3 of then being in the seventh round.

 

The scouting department can't seem to identify O-linemen to draft, so they basically don't, or the Hydra GM/F.O.

still doesn't want to pull the trigger?

 

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft...0&type=team

Mike Williams comes to mind...

 

a better question is how many of the top tier O-linemen in the league were drafted in rounds 1-4?

[BillsVet]

Clearly our current FO believes strongly that you can acquire OL in FA. That's why it hasn't been a major perogative for them. They went with Walker and Dockery, and they knew that was their plan, to pay big bucks and bring someone in, so it only makes sense that they haven't invested as much into the O-Line in the draft (however as you pointed out since '06 they've approached the position 6 times which isn't a low number-- they're trying).

 

I think that the major need of the team is Center, and we'll see if they approach it similarly and look to pick one up in the off-season. Personally, after the Mike Williams tragedy, I'm all for only picking up proven linemen.

 

You pay a price, both literally and figuratively, when a franchise dips into FA too often. Especially when you allocate so much to a given area. Signing OL was necessary when it became obvious the team hadn't groomed anyone outside of Peters in the past eight years.

 

Dockery and Walker are starters, and probably would be on most NFL teams. At the same time, spending a bunch on the OL prevents you from improving the team elsewhere. And if that UFA doesn't work out, it's an even bigger hit.

 

Brad Butler might be more of a depth player, although he's in his second year of starting. Fowler still is a below average starter and always will be.

 

Most startling about the OL's inability to run block this season: Those five have lined up together nineteen times since the beginning of 07. If they can't gel by now, it's not going to happen.

[Coach Tuesday]

I think it's just that for whatever reason, every organization seems to have a "scouting blindspot." For whatever reason, the Bills' scouts are completely inept at identifying quality interior d-line and offensive line prospects. They just suck at it. Not sure if they've rotated their scouts in that area and all of them have sucked, or if it's the same few idiots for the past decade, but that's what it is.

 

But most organizations seem to have "blind spots" like this. The Eagles don't draft WRs well (they finally scored with DeShaun Jackson this year), but seem to hit big on linemen. The Ravens are the same (they struggle with QB prospects, too). The Giants seem to have trouble with linebackers and secondary, but they're great at scouting most other positions. The Pats have trouble with cornerbacks (Samuel the exception) and WRs (see Bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson). The Colts never seem to draft the right linebackers. Etc. etc.

 

Now, a different issue is what the magnitude of a particular weakness is. IMO it's much worse to be unable to draft/scout linemen than it is WRs, CBs, etc., because quality lines make up for deficiencies in other areas (but the reverse is not necessarily true). If I were a GM, my priorities in terms of scouting would be QB and linemen, first, and then the middle of the field on out (similar to how you'd want to build a team). I suppose one could test my theory by looking for a correlation between the percentage of drafted linemen still on the team and win/losses, and see whether that same correlation does not appear for other positions. But I have real work to do...

[cody]

If the Bills do have a "scouting blindspot", then they shouldn't waist high picks on positions they have trouble evaluating.

Signing proven O-linemen and trading for proven D-linemen may be the best way to go.

 

So, who will be the best FA Center in '09?

[Coach Tuesday]

If the Bills do have a "scouting blindspot", then they shouldn't waist high picks on positions they have trouble evaluating.

Signing proven O-linemen and trading for proven D-linemen may be the best way to go.

 

So, who will be the best FA Center in '09?

 

But wouldn't it be cheaper to fix their scouting department than to pay market value for someone like Haynesworth?

[cody]

But wouldn't it be cheaper to fix their scouting department than to pay market value for someone like Haynesworth?

 

Yes.

 

Maybe Ralph has accepted the fact that he will have to spend cash-to-the-cap for players every year, so paying a player Millions is easier for him to swallow than an extra $100K for a guy who can scout linemen.

[2003Contenders]

I hear what you are saying, but I think there are a number of things to consider here. The track-record for under-drafting OL dates back to the Butler regime, as the only high draft pick I remember him investing was in 1995 for Ruben Brown.

 

Donahoe at least tried with Mike Williams. I will say until my dying day that Big Mike had the talent to be an elite blocker; he just didn't have the desire, heart or ability to withstand pain. TD did spend a day one pick on Jonas Jennings, who played pretty well here before following the money to San Francisco. Duke Preston, a 4th rounder in 2005, remains a question mark. Let's also not forget the acquisition of Jason Peters, who went undrafted.

 

The current regime (and I lump the Levy years in here too) decided to go the free agent route with Dockery and Walker. Neither has been a bust, but neither (especially Dockery) have lived up to the fat contracts they signed. And Butler hasn't played badly for a 5th round pick.

 

So it isn't that they haven't tried. And it also isn't as if they continually strike out. The Mike Williams disaster, I believe, has somewhat magnified the situation.

 

If Peters returns to form, Dockery and Walker play up to expectations, and Preston proves to be an upgrade over Fowler, then everything will be fine.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

There is a theory that O-linemen don't vary much between round 1 and round 7, and that it's a matter of just teaching guys the right technique. I know Bellichick adheres to this theory. Perhaps our FO does too.

[Bill from NYC]

There is a theory that O-linemen don't vary much between round 1 and round 7, and that it's a matter of just teaching guys the right technique. I know Bellichick adheres to this theory. Perhaps our FO does too.

 

That Sir, is a bogus theory. Virtually every great Offensive Left Tackle was a first round pick, and most were top 10.

 

Before free agency OTs were drafted early, but the were way underpaid. The players who drew the fans (QBs, RBs, WRs and a middle linebacker here and there) made the bulk of the money.

After free agency, teams realized that these guys had to be paid the big bucks. Even at that, it is curious that OTs and OGs are lumped into one category as UFAs, almost certainly to keep the price lower and enable teams to "Franchise" stars such as Pace, Ogden and Jones. Now, OGs get 50 million dollar contracts as UFAs. Peters in form or Joe Thomas could probably fetch 100 million dollar contracts. Remember, Clements signed for 82 mil.

 

The Bills screwed up by drafting a fat RT with the #4, and I don't care that his qb in college was left handed. Even if Big Mike didn't suck, he was more of a mauler than a nimble, agile LT. They also have clearly refused to devote any sort of major draft resources to blocking for 18 or so years, preferring to draft primarily corners and groom them for other teams to sign as free agents.

 

Signing Dockery and Walker while good in itself, does nothing in terms of reversing this trend. There is no reason to believe that the Bills will focus on blockers in terms of early picks in 09. Seriously, would you think the chances are higher of them drafting a safety, or any OL position in the first round of 09? Remember, they might not want to pony up the cash to re-sign Whitner, and Simpson is only a 4th round pick.

 

The good news is that at least imo, when and if they reverse this trend and start going after blockers and DTs, they will be a serious superbowl contender.

[Buckeye Eric]

The reality is that for every Joe Thomas there are three dozen Mike Williams'.

 

I think it takes 3-4 years of Pro ball for a lineman's true talent to emerge. Why waste choices guessing on raw talent when you can get a lineman with known skills with only a few miles on him...

[Bill from NYC]

The reality is that for every Joe Thomas there are three dozen Mike Williams'.

 

That is simply not true Eric. The bust rate for top 10 blockers isn't so bad. QBs and DTs are another story.

[lets_go_bills]

That Sir, is a bogus theory. Virtually every great Offensive Left Tackle was a first round pick, and most were top 10.

 

Before free agency OTs were drafted early, but the were way underpaid. The players who drew the fans (QBs, RBs, WRs and a middle linebacker here and there) made the bulk of the money.

After free agency, teams realized that these guys had to be paid the big bucks. Even at that, it is curious that OTs and OGs are lumped into one category as UFAs, almost certainly to keep the price lower and enable teams to "Franchise" stars such as Pace, Ogden and Jones. Now, OGs get 50 million dollar contracts as UFAs. Peters in form or Joe Thomas could probably fetch 100 million dollar contracts. Remember, Clements signed for 82 mil.

 

The Bills screwed up by drafting a fat RT with the #4, and I don't care that his qb in college was left handed. Even if Big Mike didn't suck, he was more of a mauler than a nimble, agile LT. They also have clearly refused to devote any sort of major draft resources to blocking for 18 or so years, preferring to draft primarily corners and groom them for other teams to sign as free agents.

 

Signing Dockery and Walker while good in itself, does nothing in terms of reversing this trend. There is no reason to believe that the Bills will focus on blockers in terms of early picks in 09. Seriously, would you think the chances are higher of them drafting a safety, or any OL position in the first round of 09? Remember, they might not want to pony up the cash to re-sign Whitner, and Simpson is only a 4th round pick.

 

The good news is that at least imo, when and if they reverse this trend and start going after blockers and DTs, they will be a serious superbowl contender.

 

Mike Williams was a bust of colossal proportions, so don't get me wrong with what I say here. But Mike was a big and talented player. He was just incredibly lazy and lacked the motivation and drive to eat well and practice hard. In college he was a man among boys, getting by on shear size, strength and raw talent. That's enough in college, but the NFL is another story. He didn't want to put in the work and that's all there is to it.

[marauderswr80]

I think we have a decent OL, just need a new C & RG?

[UConn James]

There is a theory that O-linemen don't vary much between round 1 and round 7, and that it's a matter of just teaching guys the right technique. I know Bellichick adheres to this theory. Perhaps our FO does too.

 

Ehhh. But look at the Pats*' drafts under BB/Pioli. They've drafted OL consistently and are not afraid to take fliers on OL at most any round and at any position even if they already have quality starters. They target specific guys and draft them where they feel they need to draft them, eg Hochstein was a 7, Mankins w/ a #1, Woody was in the mid-rounds, I believe. They seem to get that you need depth and in this NFL you're going to be replacing guys every 3-4 years. Need to be ready. You can't let a bust from one or two or even ten guys prevent you from investing in the OL through the draft. Gets mighty expensive when you have to plug your holes via UFA and the insane contracts it takes to lure them. This is something that the Pats by and large don't do. If the Bills are to have much of a chance surviving, we need to start not being afraid to draft OL, and then not being afraid to cut bait if those OL aren't good enough eg Preston.

 

We have a pretty high % of the cap devoted to those OL spots, and a saving grace in this regard is we have a competent QB that's making... ~ $500K/year. Until he gets his raise probably by the end of the year or during the off-season, the way things are going.

[d_wag]

If the Bills do have a "scouting blindspot", then they shouldn't waist high picks on positions they have trouble evaluating.

Signing proven O-linemen and trading for proven D-linemen may be the best way to go.

 

So, who will be the best FA Center in '09?

 

best - matt birk

 

best fit for the bills - jason brown

[JStranger76]

This would be a good year to go C and RG within the first 3 rounds IMO.....and a TE. Go after DL and LB in free agency.

[San-O]

best - matt birk

 

best fit for the bills - jason brown

 

 

Or this guy:

 

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2009/prospects/alex_mack.html