Is JP kicking Holcomb's tail?

[ganesh]

Really, you were calling for Holcomb to be benched during the week before the Oakland game after we were 1-3 with JP and 2-0 with Holcomb?

 

Had you already decided to sacrifice the season as simply a 16 week extension of training camp for JP?

735235[/snapback]

 

No...But JP was unfairly finger pointed for those loses.....

Take the Tampa Bay game....>They let a rookie RB run wild all day and then

let Brian Griese may play after play on 3rd downs.....

The Atlanta game....the defense again let Vick run around all over the place....

 

And as I said in a previous post, the two wins KH got were HOME WINS agains

the two worst teams (at that time) in Miami and NYJets....JP would have had

a good shot to win those like the game against the Texans....

[Mickey]

I agree Mickey.  As for the Eli comparison, he played every game against sick defenses in '04 - Redskins, Ravens, Eagles, etc.  And besides Eli wasn't that good last year, so who cares about him?

735135[/snapback]

Yeah, screw Eli. I just never liked that dude. I remember watching the draft that year and seeing the look on his face with that Charger hat jammed on his head and how he had a puss on his face down to the floor. I remember thinking, "man, if I was a charger fan I'd want to choke that arrogant little $#@$" Imagine, the number one freaking pick in the whole draft and he is standing there looking like he was standing in the wrong line at the DMV. Like I needed yet another reason to despise the Giants.

[Dibs]

.....As for the Eli comparison, he played every game against sick defenses in '04 - Redskins, Ravens, Eagles, etc.  And besides Eli wasn't that good last year, so who cares about him?

735135[/snapback]

& JP was benched for two of our easiest...so what?

Who does care about Eli? The point wasn't a direct comparison to his talents as a QB but to his situation as a QB. The Giants didn't bench him when he was showing he was obviously not good enough to be a starter. The 'Boys didn't bench Aikman. The Broncos didn't bench Elway. How many respected GM/Coaches do bench their 1st round QB in their first year as starter?

I don't understand why I'm arguing this....if you cannot see that TD & MM made a huge mistake last year in their management of JP(after all the arguments I & others have spelt out) then there is nothing that can be done to show the obvious more clearly.

[Mickey]

No...But JP was unfairly finger pointed for those loses.....

Take the Tampa Bay game....>They let a rookie RB run wild all day and then

let Brian Griese may play after play on 3rd downs.....

The Atlanta game....the defense again let Vick run around all over the place....

 

And as I said in a previous post,  the two wins KH got were HOME WINS agains

the two worst teams (at that time) in Miami and NYJets....JP would have had

a good shot to win those like the game against the Texans....

735243[/snapback]

I agree with you, those losses were not all his fault but at the same time, we were losing and the season was fast going up in smoke. Its not surprising at all to me that they gave Holcomb a try under those conditions. Certainly one can argue that the hook was too quick and all but really, the idea that they were bat sh#t crazy for giving Holcomb a shot is serious overstatement.

 

As far as the home vs. away idea, that has some merit. However, I would note that one of the best games Holcomb played all year was against New England, on the road and that JP's worst performance was at home against the same team. Holcomb completed 20 for 26yards including a 55 yard TD to Moulds and had us up 16-7 with only 10 minutes to play. Despite our 4th quarter collapse, he finished the game with a QB rating of 83. At home against NE, JP was sacked twice, threw three picks, completed only 10 passes and finished the game with a QB rating of 33 in a 35-10 loss. One pick was in the endzone ending what would have been a scoring drive for us and another was returned the other way for 6.

 

In fact, the only road win of the entire season was against Cincy where Holcomb threw for over 300 including a 65 yard TD to Evans. It is the only game tape from lasty year that I still have on the DVR.

[Ramius]

Holcomb completed 20 for 26yards including a 55 yard TD to Moulds and had us up 16-7 with only 10 minutes to play.  Despite our 4th quarter collapse, he finished the game with a QB rating of 83. 

735413[/snapback]

 

Well, the rating doesnt show the fact holcomb fumbled on our own 20 with us leading 16-14, and allowed the patsies to take the lead immediately after.

 

Also, i am so glad he was 20-26 with the 2 yard out on 4th and 7, instead of 19-26 while actually TRYING for the first down. But he's gotta keep that completion % and rating up.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Also, i am so glad he was 20-26 with the 2 yard out on 4th and 7, instead of 19-26 while actually TRYING for the first down. But he's gotta keep that completion % and rating up.

735422[/snapback]

 

How soon they forget, Cap'n.

[Mickey]

& JP was benched for two of our easiest...so what?

Who does care about Eli?  The point wasn't a direct comparison to his talents as a QB but to his situation as a QB.  The Giants didn't bench him when he was showing he was obviously not good enough to be a starter.  The 'Boys didn't bench Aikman.  The Broncos didn't bench Elway.  How many respected GM/Coaches do bench their 1st round QB in their first year as starter? 

I don't understand why I'm arguing this....if you cannot see that TD & MM made a huge mistake last year in their management of JP(after all the arguments I & others have spelt out)  then there is nothing that can be done to show the obvious more clearly.

735331[/snapback]

You really need to check your facts. The revisionist history of the Bills circa 2005 is bad enough but lets not rewrite the history of the Cowboys and Broncos as well just to weave a narrative that blames everyone but JP for his lackluster performance so far.

 

Steve Walsh played in 8 games in Aikman's first year, throwing 219 passes (Aikman threw 293 times) so actually, the Cowboys did bench Aikman. Nice comparison. Cowboys were 3-13 in 1988 and thus had no serious chance at the playoffs in 1989, Aikman's first year starting. They had nothing to lose in giving him all that time to learn and even so, they didn't hesitate to use Walsh.

 

In Elway's first year, he split time with Steve DeBerg who played in 10 games and actually completed only 4 fewer passes that year than Elway did. Oh, and the year before Denver was 2-7. Because the played DeBerg whose numbers were much better than Elway's, the Broncos made the playoffs that year as a wild card finishing the season at 9-7.

 

In contrast, the Bills narrowly missed the playoffs the year before starting JP and stuck with him no less than Denver did with Elway or Dallas did with Aikman. The examples you cite actually support the arguement you are trying to defeat.

 

The only real argument here is over those last three games. People forget however that JP hurt his shoulder against New England and that is why Holcomb started the next week against Denver:

 

"Holcomb, a journeyman backup, made his first start in five games in place of J.P. Losman, who hurt his throwing shoulder and left leg in last weekend's 35-7 loss to New England. Holcomb finished 22 of 35 for 202 yards. " See Denver v. Buffalo

 

He was still hurt the following week when Holcomb started against Cincy:

 

"Filling in a second straight week for injured J.P. Losman, Holcomb became the first Bills quarterback to throw for 300 yards in the last 45 games..." See Bills v. Cinn.

 

And his shoulder and thigh still hadn't recovered before the finale against the Jets so Holcomb started again. See Losman future on hold

 

So, did the coaches mismanage JP by not starting him with an injured shoulder? Did they mismanage him by sticking with him after 3 straight losses?

Did they mismanage him by not benching Holcomb before the Oakland game after two straight wins with him as the starter?

Did they mismanage JP by going to a veteran when he wasn't playing well as did Dallas with Walsh/Aikman and Denver with Elway/DeBerg?

Were they fools for thinking they had a legit shot at the playoffs after just missing out in 2004 and should have used the entire season as a 16 game extension of training camp?

 

I have every hope that JP is going to be our starter for years to come but to delude ourselves into thinking that this guy would be leading us to the SB this year if not for those bat sh$t crazy coaches who just ruined him last year or that his often dismal performances were 100% the fault of others is just silly.

[Mickey]

That is kind of unfair on JP....The games that KH won were TWO HOME games

against two Bad teams (at least at that point of the season) Miami and NYJets.

JP would have had a good shot at winning those games as he had did against

the Texans....

 

The games he lost were two roaad games, one at Tampa Bay and another

at New Orleans and then had a home game against the Atlanta Falcons who

had just the previous year beat the Packers in Green Bay in the playoffs....

 

The problem was the final 4 games...when we were out of the playoffs..

MM gave the bogus excuse of JP being injured and continued to start KH

which was utterly futile.....

735232[/snapback]

Holcomb only started the last three games, not the last 4 and that was because JP hurt his shoulder and thigh against NE. Because JP was hurt, Holcomb started against Denver, Cinn. and the Jets to close out the season. Thus, JP started 8 games, played most of the KC game and was injured for 3 others. That leaves only 4 lousy games where the coaches could have played him but didn't. Of those 4, which were played in succession (Miami, NY, Oakland and NE) we won the first two.

 

Crazy, stupid, dumb, useless, drooling, moronic coaches. Benching a guy in week 4 when we are still in the hunt just because we lose three straight and then having the nerver to stick with a guy who rattles off a couple wins nearly rescuing the season and then following up that foolishness by refusing to start an injured QB who is the future of the franchise in the last three totally meaningless games. Don't they understand that the invaluable experience he would have gained in those useless contests were easily worth risking the guys entire future by playing him hurt?

[Mickey]

I'll yell louder next time.

 

JP doesn't have 8 starts "in part" of anything other than the fact that the coaches panicked. It had nothing to do with JP being unable to keep Holcomb on the bench and had everything to do with coaches refusing to take their lumps. I want to see this guy play 16 consecutive games and then we'll talk.

734635[/snapback]

Was not starting JP when he was hurt over the last three games of the season where you think the coaches screwed up and panicked? JP hurt his shoulder and thigh against NE in our 13th game. He didn't recover thus Holcomb started the last three.

[RayFinkle]

Well, the rating doesnt show the fact holcomb fumbled on our own 20 with us leading 16-14, and allowed the patsies to take the lead immediately after.

 

Also, i am so glad he was 20-26 with the 2 yard out on 4th and 7, instead of 19-26 while actually TRYING for the first down. But he's gotta keep that completion % and rating up.

735422[/snapback]

Holcomb ran a two yard out on that play? 4th a 7, he got the ball into the hands of the best playmaker on the team. I think it was more a coaching issue than a "dump off issue". Just a weak arguement that folks want to try to keep rehashing IMHO.

[Mickey]

Bullschitt. The ONLY reason he has 8 starts is because our pussified coaching staff and GM feared if we had another losing season they'd be out on the streets. So they panicked at the expense of our young quarterback and turned our team into a managerial embarrassment of ridiculous proportions.

 

If they just worked him out for all games last year, regardless of the record, we'd be a whole helluva smarter than we are today.

 

They lost a year because they panicked. Plain and simple. Put it on Losman all you want, but it's just another pussified excuse because 'we need a winner now.'

 

!@#$ing bullshitt.

734170[/snapback]

Actually, no, its not the ONLY reason, JP was hurt in wk 13 against NE and did not recover for the rest of the year forcing the coaches to start Holcomb. Is that your complaint, that the coaches were pussies for not giving JP the chance to experience the wonders of playing while hurt in meaningless games for a team who was out of it?

[Mickey]

Holcomb ran a two yard out on that play? 4th a 7, he get the ball into the hands of the best playmaker on the team. I think it was more a coaching issue than a "dump off issue". Just a weak arguement that folks want to try to keep rehashing IMHO.

735486[/snapback]

No doubt, Holcomb was having a great game on the road against a very good team up until about the last 10 minutes of the 4th quarter. Then he stunk up the place. JP on the other hand, at home mind you, had a lousy first, second, third and fourth quarter agains the Patriots. So who had the better game against the Pats?

[Ray]

From what I've heard Holcomb looks like the better QB at camp so far. Kind of disappointing but I'll support whoever starts. I just want a winner.

[Mickey]

From what I've heard Holcomb looks like the better QB at camp so far.  Kind of disappointing but I'll support whoever starts.  I just want a winner.

735510[/snapback]

Don't get me wrong, I want JP to start and I hope they stick with him as I don't see us as a serious contender this year. At the same time, I reject the idea that no matter what happens, no matter how bad he might play, we absolutely must, must, must, must start him for 16 games or else we will never ever know if he can play or not.

[ganesh]

In fact, the only road win of the entire season was against Cincy where Holcomb threw for over 300 including a 65 yard TD to Evans.  It is the only game tape from lasty year that I still have on the DVR.

735413[/snapback]

 

KH might have played well that game...But that game was won by McGee for us

with his KR and Int ret for TDs....

 

You compared KHs/JP performance against NE....But then look how KH played

against the mediocre Jets in the season finale.....

 

What really bothered me was in the final 4 games, when we were already

out of the playoffs, it made much more sense to let JP play and gain confidence

than have KH play and still lose those games....

[ganesh]

The only real argument here is over those last three games.  People forget however that JP hurt his shoulder against New England and that is why Holcomb started the next week against Denver:

 

735473[/snapback]

 

If I do remember correctly JP was ok physically to play the final two games,

but Monster Mularkey chose to heed his veterans voices and play KH....

 

I like you would like JP to succeed...He is the future of the franchise....or

at least they need to find if he is....I wish the veterans will back this guy

100% ignoring their own individual aims.....this is a team game....

 

The veterans bitched about a rookie QB....but did they keep their side of

the bargain....no....they kept giving 1st downs on so many 3rd and longs

sustaining opponents drive after drive....and on offense the coaching staff

could never get a strong RB even on the field.....And they were fighting

on the sidelines, in the locker room etc.....

[yall]

Man, I gotta get one of my dog's into my avatar if I want to fit in around here...

 

I was surprised to see that Holcomb seems to be getting favored when it comes to reps with the 1st squad. It would seem he might be "penciled" in as the starter.

 

Kind of surprising when you consider all of the camp reports, plus all of the coaches comments, and factor in media opinions as well. Everyone seems to have these 2 guys neck and neck, with the occasional edge going to one or the other as that day's practice dictates.

 

What I'm getting at is this: If they are both almost equal right now, why wouldn't you let the 3rd year guy get more of the 1st team reps? All things being equal, the fact that the 12 year guy has little room to improve, vs. the 3rd year guy, who should have more room for improvement, makes the 3rd year guy seem like the obvious choice.

[Realist]

Cowboys were 3-13 in 1988 and thus had no serious chance at the playoffs in 1989, Aikman's first year starting. 

 

By all accounts Buffalo has no chance to make the playoffs this year, so why not start Losman ALL season and see how he handles it? Why would you favor Holcomb this year?

[Mickey]

By all accounts Buffalo has no chance to make the playoffs this year, so why not start Losman ALL season and see how he handles it?  Why would you favor Holcomb this year?

735622[/snapback]

I don't favor Holcomb this year. I am, however, worried about a QB that can't manage to outplay Kelly Holcomb. Admittedly, one poster made a good point, that outplaying KH isn't so easy because KH is not that bad of a QB.

 

This whole thing started because I pointed out that I was hoping JP would clearly outplay KH from the git-go in camp and was disappointed that, based on the posted camp reports which I qouted and updated extensively, he wasn't kicking KH's tail, far from it in fact.

 

From that modest beginning rained a thousand posts about how its not his fault, he is still too green and all because the moronic coaches last year didn't start him for all 16 games. His poor performance in camp is apparently Mike Mularkey's fault.

 

On a positive note, the last few camp reports posted indicate that he is starting to play better.

[Mickey]

If I do remember correctly JP was ok physically to play the final two games,

but Monster Mularkey chose to heed his veterans voices and play KH....

735540[/snapback]

All the contemporaneous news articles I could find indicated that he was unable to play, I linked some of them. I couldn't find a single article that said he could play but that Mularkey refused to play him. In fact, from the articles I could find he missed at least the tuesday and wed. practice before the Denver game and Mularkey wasn't even sure he could be the back-up for that game. Were the veterans demanding that JP not even be allowed to practice??? He started practicing the next week but Mularkey said he wouldn't play him hurt...and he didn't.

 

The idea that they wouldn't play him in a totally meaningless game I think is just too senseless to be true. Not playing a guy who was hurt however, now that does make sense.