JP Losman haters will agree with GBN

[JDG]

So, if I understand you correctly, Eli Manning is a bust? Then so would Troy Aikman, Payton Manning be considered busts? All three had just as bad first 7 games as JP has had. JP was in his second year, but he was basicly a rookie. He did not get to play much due to his injury.

 

On that team, with that play calling, not to many second year QB's with less than a dozen starts would have done better.

 

Give him a chance.

678778[/snapback]

 

 

You do not understand me correctly. All three of the above players made their first seven starts as rookies. JP Losman made his starts as a second-year player. The bar is higher for him. Again, JP Losman threw more passes as a rookie than Carson Palmer or Daunte Culpepper did - you can't just write off his rookie year like it never happened. JP Losman was a second-year player, not a rookie.

 

And before you go comparing Losman to Peyton Manning -

 

Peyton Manning's first seven games: 55% completion percentage, 228ypg, 9 TD, 14 INT, 1-6 record.

 

JP Losman's first seven starts: 49% completion percentage, 172ypg, 6 TD, 8 INT, 2-5 record.

 

JDG

[outsidethebox]

You do not understand me correctly.    All three of the above players made their first seven starts as rookies.  JP Losman made his starts as a second-year player.   The bar is higher for him.   Again, JP Losman threw more passes as a rookie than Carson Palmer or Daunte Culpepper did - you can't just write off his rookie year like it never happened.    JP Losman was a second-year player, not a rookie.

 

And before you go comparing Losman to Peyton Manning -

 

Peyton Manning's first seven games: 55% completion percentage, 228ypg, 9 TD, 14 INT, 1-6 record.

 

JP Losman's first seven starts: 49% completion percentage, 172ypg, 6 TD, 8 INT, 2-5 record.

 

JDG

678823[/snapback]

 

 

Let's just cut him and go with this Nall guy. I've heard he has looked just like Brett Favre in practice

 

What do you want the Bills to do JDG? Do you really think they should just get rid of him? There really isn't that much of a difference between Manning's first seven games and JP's first seven games. It's a good thing the Indy coaches had more faith in a QB who has played only seven games than a lot of these JP haters.

[Orton's Arm]

You do not understand me correctly.    All three of the above players made their first seven starts as rookies.  JP Losman made his starts as a second-year player.  The bar is higher for him.

Agreed. Roethlisberger said that in his rookie year, he'd only managed to memorize the route for one receiver per play. He'd stare down some other randomy chosen receiver, then throw to the one guy whose route he knew. Most rookie QBs aren't as successful at compensating for their lack of knowledge of the playbook, which is why you see so much atrocious rookie QB play. But once they've learned the playbook, many of those rookies go on to start playing well.

 

Losman had his whole rookie year to learn the playbook and watch film, plus the offseason and camps leading into his second year. So there's one less excuse for him to perform poorly.

[outsidethebox]

Agreed.  Roethlisberger said that in his rookie year, he'd only managed to memorize the route for one receiver per play.  He'd stare down some other randomy chosen receiver, then throw to the one guy whose route he knew.  Most rookie QBs aren't as successful at compensating for their lack of knowledge of the playbook, which is why you see so much atrocious rookie QB play.  But once they've learned the playbook, many of those rookies go on to start playing well.

 

Losman had his whole rookie year to learn the playbook and watch film, plus the offseason and camps leading into his second year.  So there's one less excuse for him to perform poorly.

678878[/snapback]

 

There is a HUGE difference between knowing the playbook and actually playing against NFL caliber competition. The bottom line is seven starts is seven starts.

If he would have had seven starts in his rookie year and bombed out in his second season, then you would have a legitimate complaint.

 

As of right now, he is our only hope at QB for the Bills this year and let's stand beside him, or whomever wins the QB comp. in camp and give him all our support.

 

As far as him performing poorly, do you put all the blame on JP? Are you letting the O-line, coaching and horrible defense off the hook?

[JDG]

There is a HUGE difference between knowing the playbook and actually playing against NFL caliber competition. The bottom line is seven starts is seven starts.

 

Completely disagree - I think that players like Carson Palmer benefited greatly from a year on the bench. Heck, Losman played *more* as a rookie than Palmer did.

 

As of right now, he is our only hope at QB for the Bills this year and let's stand beside him, or whomever wins the QB comp. in camp and give him all our support.

 

As far as him performing poorly, do you put all the blame on JP? Are you letting the O-line, coaching and horrible defense off the hook?

678917[/snapback]

 

The fact that he was only a fraction as good as Kelly Holcomb with the same O-line, coaching, and defense speaks for itself, I think.

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

Completely disagree - I think that players like Carson Palmer benefited greatly from a year on the bench.  Heck, Losman played *more* as a rookie than Palmer did.   

The fact that he was only a fraction as good as Kelly Holcomb with the same O-line, coaching, and defense speaks for itself, I think.

 

JDG

678951[/snapback]

Peyton Manning. I don't you can say for certain one way or another. In fact, for a guy like Losman who was "raw" coming out of college because he only played two years, it would help him getting the game time even if he was playing crappy. He doesn't have a problem with self-confidence.

[Orton's Arm]

There is a HUGE difference between knowing the playbook and actually playing against NFL caliber competition. The bottom line is seven starts is seven starts.

If he would have had seven starts in his rookie year and bombed out in his second season, then you would have a legitimate complaint.

 

As of right now, he is our only hope at QB for the Bills this year and let's stand beside him, or whomever wins the QB comp. in camp and give him all our support.

 

As far as him performing poorly, do you put all the blame on JP? Are you letting the O-line, coaching and horrible defense off the hook?

678917[/snapback]

Prior to the 2004 draft, TD's most successful QB pick was Kordell Stewart. Stewart had all the physical tools to succeed, but he just wasn't accurate enough or good enough at quickly processing information and making sound decisions. TD was so convinced Stewart was the answer, he allowed Neil O'Donnell to hit free agency.

 

In other words, prior to coming to Buffalo, TD had zero track record of making sound decisions at QB. Zilch. None. So in 2004, TD decided to trade up for Losman. Like Kordell Stewart, Losman is very mobile, and has all the physical tools to succeed. But also like Stewart, Losman hasn't shown the ability to quickly process complex information either in college or the NFL. This ability is the heart of being a good quarterback.

 

Just as TD chose Kordell Stewart over Neil O'Donnell, he later decided Losman was more ready than Bledsoe to lead the Bills to the playoffs. The 2005 Bills had largely been built with free agents, in an effort to win now. Unless you think Losman is capable of producing immediate results, you don't cut Bledsoe. TD was clearly wrong about how soon Losman would be ready. This gives us yet another reason to mistrust his judgement when it comes to quarterbacks. Not that another reason was needed.

 

If a player like Peyton Manning was the recipient of patient treatment, it was because he'd earned that right based on his college play. If people like myself are less patient with Losman, it's because I don't want to see this franchise waste 30 games--or whatever Losman's supporters claim is the minimum needed--to evaluate a guy who's shown nothing more than physical tools and a pretty deep ball. A player like Craig Nall has done far more to demonstrate a mental grasp of the game, and is therefore more deserving of the regular season evaulation/experience that would otherwise be squandered on Losman.

[outsidethebox]

Prior to the 2004 draft, TD's most successful QB pick was Kordell Stewart.  Stewart had all the physical tools to succeed, but he just wasn't accurate enough or good enough at quickly processing information and making sound decisions.  TD was so convinced Stewart was the answer, he allowed Neil O'Donnell to hit free agency.

 

In other words, prior to coming to Buffalo, TD had zero track record of making sound decisions at QB.  Zilch.  None.  So in 2004, TD decided to trade up for Losman.  Like Kordell Stewart, Losman is very mobile, and has all the physical tools to succeed.  But also like Stewart, Losman hasn't shown the ability to quickly process complex information either in college or the NFL.  This ability is the heart of being a good quarterback.

 

Just as TD chose Kordell Stewart over Neil O'Donnell, he later decided Losman was more ready than Bledsoe to lead the Bills to the playoffs.  The 2005 Bills had largely been built with free agents, in an effort to win now.  Unless you think Losman is capable of producing immediate results, you don't cut Bledsoe.  TD was clearly wrong about how soon Losman would be ready.  This gives us yet another reason to mistrust his judgement when it comes to quarterbacks.  Not that another reason was needed.

 

If a player like Peyton Manning was the recipient of patient treatment, it was because he'd earned that right based on his college play.  If people like myself are less patient with Losman, it's because I don't want to see this franchise waste 30 games--or whatever Losman's supporters claim is the minimum needed--to evaluate a guy who's shown nothing more than physical tools and a pretty deep ball.  A player like Craig Nall has done far more to demonstrate a mental grasp of the game, and is therefore more deserving of the regular season evaulation/experience that would otherwise be squandered on Losman.

678992[/snapback]

 

Well, I don't understand your "TD has never drafted a good QB before so JP cannot be any good"theory. I think you may be finding reasons to dislike him other than his ability. That is fine, you don't have to like him, just give him more than 7 games to prove himself.

I am sure I am not the only one who can see a lot of potential in him. As far as saying Nall has done far more to demonstrate a mental grasp of the game, and is therefore more deserving of the regular season is going a LITTLE overboard when WE HAVEN'T EVEN SEEM HIM PLAY IN REGULAR SEASON GAME.

As far as Bledsoe goes, we were going nowhere fast with him as our starting QB.

 

For crying out loud everybody, STEP AWAY FROM THE LEDGE!

[JDG]

If a player like Peyton Manning was the recipient of patient treatment, it was because he'd earned that right based on his college play.

678992[/snapback]

 

Its also because Peyton Manning's rookie stat line overall isn't that bad, and his second year stat line are actually pretty darn good.

 

JDG

[Orton's Arm]

Well, I don't understand your "TD has never drafted a good QB before so JP cannot be any good"theory.

 

I see that. My point was basically that, based on what I know about Losman, TD didn't learn from the Kordell Stewart disaster. The two situations are too similar to each other for me to feel comfortable at all.

 

As far as saying  Nall has done far more to demonstrate a mental grasp of the game, and is therefore more deserving of the regular season is going a LITTLE overboard when WE HAVEN'T EVEN SEEM HIM PLAY IN REGULAR SEASON GAME.

 

Nall's QB rating in the regular season is 139.4

 

Losman's is 63.5

 

While QB rating isn't a perfect system of measurement, and while the two players faced different circumstances, these factors cannot explain away a difference of this magnitude.

 

As far as Bledsoe goes, we were going nowhere fast with him as our starting QB.

I agree that for the long-term good of the franchise, it made sense to move beyond Bledsoe at some point. But the defense in 2004 had finished second in yards allowed, and ten of the eleven starters were coming back for 2005. With the Bills' 9-7 record in 2004 largely due to aging veterans with little left in their tanks, the team was in win-now mode. TD apparently thought Losman gave the Bills a better chance to win now than Bledsoe could. He was wrong.

[outsidethebox]

Its also because Peyton Manning's rookie stat line overall isn't that bad, and his second year stat line are actually pretty darn good.

 

JDG

679030[/snapback]

 

 

OK, JDG, lets say JP is as bad as you think he is, what should the Bills do with him? Release him? Use him as a 2nd or 3rd string QB? Drafted Leinhardt or Cutler? Kept Bledsoe?

 

I am curious to know what can we do with JP losman?

[outsidethebox]

I see that.  My point was basically that, based on what I know about Losman, TD didn't learn from the Kordell Stewart disaster.  The two sitiations are too similar to each other for me to feel comfortable at all.

Nall's QB rating in the regular season is 139.4

 

Losman's is 63.5

 

While QB rating isn't a perfect system of measurement, and while the two players faced different circumstances, these factors cannot explain away a difference of this magnitude. 

I agree that for the long-term good of the franchise, it made sense to move beyond Bledsoe at some point.  But the defense in 2004 had finished second in yards allowed, and ten of the eleven starters were coming back for 2005.  With the Bills' 9-7 record in 2004 largely due to aging veterans with little left in their tanks, the team was in win-now mode.  TD apparently thought Losman gave the Bills a better chance to win now than Bledsoe could.  He was wrong.

679031[/snapback]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, hasn't Nall thrown around 44 regular season passes in his carreer? I guess you can make the same argument against Nall that you are making against JP. I don't want another Rob Johnson QB in Buffalo, he has one good game and we make our starting QB.

 

Craig Nall could be the real deal, or he could be another Rob Johnson.

[K-gunner]

There is a HUGE difference between knowing the playbook and actually playing against NFL caliber competition

 

This is whats true.Our coaching staff was in shambles.From week to week it had no flow,no direction,no focus.A mishmash of Run...No throw...No a double reverse...No...let's line up a rook WR in the backfeild and let him throw.Christ..The guy had puppets as coaches.I'm not saying the guy is the second coming...but he aint Rob Johnson.

[JDG]

OK, JDG, lets say JP is as bad as you think he is, what should the Bills do with him? Release him? Use him as a 2nd or 3rd string QB? Drafted Leinhardt or Cutler? Kept Bledsoe?

 

I am curious to know what can we do with JP losman?

679035[/snapback]

 

Answer: Pray.

 

I hope to all heck that I am dead wrong about Losman, and that he defies history by being one of the worst-performing second-year QB's ever to go on to a successful NFL career.

 

Step 2 will be to evaluate Nall vs. Losman in training camp. Give Losman every chance to earn the job, but ultimate go with whomever is better - QB contrversy be damned, draf status be damned.

 

I believe that you have to try to win games in the NFL, no matter the circumstances, and that Losman has used up his "trial by fire" status. If Losman is going to trot out under center again for the Bills it has to be because he has a better chance than Nall to lead us to victory on that Sunday.

 

JDG

[AJ1]

Answer: Pray.

 

I hope to all heck that I am dead wrong about Losman, and that he defies history by being one of the worst-performing second-year QB's ever to go on to a successful NFL career.

 

Step 2 will be to evaluate Nall vs. Losman in training camp.   Give Losman every chance to earn the job, but ultimate go with whomever is better - QB contrversy be damned, draf status be damned.

 

I believe that you have to try to win games in the NFL, no matter the circumstances, and that Losman has used up his "trial by fire" status.   If Losman is going to trot out under center again for the Bills it has to be because he has a better chance than Nall to lead us to victory on that Sunday.

 

JDG

679060[/snapback]

 

The Bills had one the worst performing 2nd year coaching staffs in history. Mularkey made Williams look like a friggin genius.

[Orton's Arm]

Correct me if I'm wrong, hasn't Nall thrown around 44 regular season passes in his carreer? I guess you can make the same argument against Nall that you are making against JP.

How? Nall's done well with what little playing time he's been given. Losman hasn't. The two cases are completely different.

 

If your goal is to avoid the next Rob Johnson, you don't trade away a first round pick for an injury-prone surfer dude QB from Southern California.

 

From what I've heard, Nall handled himself quite well in a preseason game against the Bills. Green Bay's backup offensive linemen were getting dominated by the Bills' blitzes. Nall responded by getting rid of the ball quickly, making the most of a bad situation. So based on the limited information we have, it seems Nall isn't a sack waiting to happen. The only similarity I see between Nall and Rob Johnson is that both did well in the limited playing time they had. Surely you don't think getting yourself a QB who did badly in limited playing time would lessen the chance of a Rob Johnson?

 

I agree you don't want to bet the franchise on a QB whose playing time has been as limited as Nall's. But our investment in him is zero in terms of draft picks, and very little in terms of salary cap space. If he doesn't work out, no big deal. But if he manages to sustain a QB rating even remotely close to the one he's compiled so far, the Bills will finally have found Jim Kelly's successor.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

The Bills had one the worst performing 2nd year coaching staffs in history.  Mularkey made Williams look like a friggin genius.

679065[/snapback]

 

Amen. When Mularkey was announced as the next coach, I shook my head. At the time, people in Pittsburgh were ready to run him out of town anyway. Last season he showed you why - ineffective, ineffective ineffective. The best example was the Houston game. 5 field goals against a bad team with a short field provided by the defense. JP's best plays were with his feet. He couldn't get the team moving, even with the incredibly short fields the defense was able to give him. So they give Houston a chance by not converting for touchdown's.

 

You will see how much potential JP has this year because a new regime is not afraid of dumping former high drafts picks they had nothing to do with. I don't think they have a replacement for his roster spot this year but he could be dumped next post season if the effort isn't there or he doesn't progress enough. I think Holcombe may start the season especially if the oline isn't solid. JP or Nall may come in a few games into the season if Holcombe isn't winning.

 

One thing about the Stewart-O'Donnell thing and Donahoe's involvement from a couple of posts ago. The Steelers as an organization don't pay too much for their players and they were not going to match the contract the Jets gave him. There was no desire to keep him at that price, although if I remember correctly they did put a prety good offer out there for him. Donahoe also had trouble picking olineman - he brought Kris Farris with him to Buffalo - just one of his quality picks. I think that's really what's killing this team now.

[K-gunner]

Why did Lienart slide to 10? Is Vince Young worth the 3rd overall pick...We picked JP what 23'rd.It's funny how these guys including Cutler seem to be the greatest players ever selected...and they have not played a down..in the NFL!Andre Ware,David Klingler,Ryan Leaf,Tim Couch,Aklili Smith,Joey Harrington....QB is the biggest crapshoot.Get a grip..give the guy a chance under a structured offense.

[PatPatPatSack]

No, actually, I have been a Bills fan for almost 40 years.  Billy Jo, Ferragamo, Mathison, and Dufek were never viewed by anyone as anything other than stop gap QB's on horrible rosters.

 

Ferragamo and Hobert were with the team for what, about 8 weeks each, before being cut?

 

Dufek was an undrafted free-agents, who were supposed to be third string behind Feguson, and then Ferragamo.

 

Mathison was a 10th round draft pick for the Chargers, who came to the Bills with 5 pass attempts in 2 seasons.  etc ...

672602[/snapback]

 

 

ummm. I'm guessing he does remember.