PromoTheRobot Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Actually, the importance of winning in the trenches is possibly the most common theme on this board, and rightly so. But while Super Bowl teams win in the trenches, they also have top players elsewhere. Say you had a choice between drafting the next Jim Kelly, or the next Phil Hansen. Could you honestly say you'd be better off taking Phil? Or what if it came down to a choice between the next Jerry Rice, or the next Ruben Brown? Would you rather have Antonio Gates or John Fina? My point is that finding greatness--especially in the first round--is a higher priority than taking a guy just because he fills a need. 672523[/snapback] It's the classic chicken-vs-the egg analogy. You need players at the skill positions, but how do you know what you have when they are running for their lives? But you need players...but you need blockers...but you need players...you get the idea. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 You must be like 16 years old, because you obviously don't remember "all-pros" like Billy Joe Hobert, Vince Ferragamo, Bruce Matheson, Todd Collins, and Joe Dufek. (I'm sure I'm forgetting some other gems) The list is endless. Trust me, JP Losman hasn't even come near the bottom of the Bills all-time QB barrell. PTR 672590[/snapback] No, actually, I have been a Bills fan for almost 40 years. Billy Jo, Ferragamo, Mathison, and Dufek were never viewed by anyone as anything other than stop gap QB's on horrible rosters. Ferragamo and Hobert were with the team for what, about 8 weeks each, before being cut? Dufek was an undrafted free-agents, who were supposed to be third string behind Feguson, and then Ferragamo. Mathison was a 10th round draft pick for the Chargers, who came to the Bills with 5 pass attempts in 2 seasons. He was supposed to be Ferragamo's "vetran" back-up. Dufek and Mathison were thrust into the starting role, on two of the very worst teams in NFL history. The franchise was waiting for the USFL to fold, so they could finally have Jim Kelly. They had ditched Joe Ferguson, in hopes that it would make Kelly more willing to listen to contract offers. They weren't really interested in bringing in a true starting QB, at that time, because they knew Kelly was theirs, if they were patient. Ferragamo was just a big name guy, but most NFL insiders at that time knew he was done. Don't forget though, Ferragamo put up some huge numbers in his short stint with the Bills. He Hobert? He never even started a single game for the Bills! His is infamous, because once he had a chance to play, when Collins was injured in a game, he was horrendous, and admitted he hadn't studied the play book...he was cut the following week. Remember JP's first NFL action, against the Patriots on that Sunday night game? Kind of similar... I would take Todd Collins first 4 or 5 starts over JP's...when Collins was still Kelly's back-up, he did exactly what the Bills allegedly wanted Losman to do. He played smart, un-exciting football, and managed the offense to a couple of big wins, against good teams. Even when Jimbo was gone, Collins managed to at least move the offense for the first half of his season as the #1 guy in Buffalo. Just looking at the stats, in 1997, Collins started out with totals of 299, 210, 297, and 275. The Bills were 2-2....I know stats don't tell the whole story, but how long did it take JP to even come close to those kind of yardage totals? He just could not make the plays that were there for him to make... JP was/is a first round draft pick that then team management gambled an entire season on. He was pretty awful, and not really close to being up to the task. Not a lot better than any of the guys you mentioned. If JP wasn't at the bottom of the barrell, he didn't have much further to sink...that doesn't mean to say he can't or won't get better. But, I don't know how anyone could have defended his play, before he was benched in favor of Holcomb. He was just not ready to play NFL football. Starting him the way they did, cutting Bledsoe, was a huge blunder on Donohoe's part. Lets' just hope it hasn't ruined JP... he finally started showing some "flashes" in his second stint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 No, actually, I have been a Bills fan for almost 40 years. Billy Jo, Ferragamo, Mathison, and Dufek were never viewed by anyone as anything other than stop gap QB's on horrible rosters. Ferragamo and Hobert were with the team for what, about 5 weeks each, before being cut? Mathison and Dufek were undrafted free-agents, who were supposed to back-up Ferragamo. I would take Todd Collins first 4 or 5 starts over JP's....JP was/is a first round draft pick that then team management gambled an entire season on. He was pretty awful. No better than any of the guys you mentioned. Ferragamo actually put up some pretty gawdy stats his first few starts with the Bills. Too many int's and not enough TD's, lots of yards. Hobert never even started a game! If JP wasn't at the bottom of the barrell, he wasn't far... 672602[/snapback] Whatever. Arguing with JP-haters is pointless. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Whatever. Arguing with JP-haters is pointless. PTR 672606[/snapback] Yeah, I see your point....I don't consider myself a JP-hater at all, but I am not a JP "fan boy" either. Those types are equally frustrating to try to talk football with. I am just a Bills fan who is sick of seeing sh------- teams year after year. You would think we would have all learned a hard lesson from the whole Rob Johnson experience, but I see that isn't the case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richNjoisy Posted April 28, 2006 Author Share Posted April 28, 2006 Yeah, I see your point....I don't consider myself a JP-hater at all, but I am not a JP "fan boy" either. Those types are equally frustrating to try to talk football with. I am just a Bills fan who is sick of seeing sh------- teams year after year. You would think we would have all learned a hard lesson from the whole Rob Johnson experience, but I see that isn't the case! 672610[/snapback] hey Buftex - who are these JP-fanboys you speak of? Given what JP has accomplished so far (little) I must have missed that. What I (and I assume PTR and other of my ilk ) are saying is that that JP has been condemned by (IMO) a large number of Bills fans and outside "experts" which I cannot fathom based on my observation (40 years same as you) of first year QB's. Now, I admit I have not reviewed each of JP's games as some of you have and it is very possible I missed the consistent inaccuracy some posters have claimed, but I do recall little or no time to throw, no rungame to speak of, and playing from behind a lot. This does not sound like Roethlisberger situatition to me at all. I HAVE seen moments of brilliance from JP (mostly strikes to Evans). My position is this: 1.) JP has to compete for the job this summer. - flat out even with the other 2 2.) The Bills have to provide the QB at least 3-4 seconds to throw or more on a consistent basis...in other words IMPROVE THE DAMN OFFENSIVE LINE 3.) Bench any WR who is not working hard (this refers to my suspicions that Moulds - in frustration over his dislike of JP - dogged it out on the playing field. Don't assume I dislike Eric but I was disappointed in his play last season. I thought he was more of a professional. Well, now he has his wish: playing for a "real contender" (Houston???) for "more money" (???) If JP wins the job and 2 and 3 occur, and he STILL sucks, time to move on. As to tomorrow's draft: draft mooses! both sides of the line. RichNJoisy CNJBBB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I agree with your point but I think you should compare apples with apples.Jerry Rice = best of all time Ruben Brown = Very good(typically viewed as over-rated) non HOF player perhaps to explain your point.... Emmit Smith or Larry Allen Joe Montana or Bruce Smith Jim Kelly or Orlando Pace ...unless you think Kelly = Hansen? 672586[/snapback] In this year's draft, the Bills might have to choose between, say, Vernon Davis and Ngata. Davis could be an Antonio Gates-caliber TE, while Ngata might play at the level of Phil Hansen. Or if it's Hawk that falls to the Bills, they might have to choose between an Urlacher quality LB or a Ruben Brown-level OL in Justice. Don't get me wrong: I can't guarantee that Justice will be neither better nor worse than Ruben Brown, nor that Hawk will be the next Urlacher. But if the best guess of the Bills' scouting department is that Hawk and Davis will be significantly better football players than Justice or Ngata, the Bills should act accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 In this year's draft, the Bills might have to choose between, say, Vernon Davis and Ngata. Davis could be an Antonio Gates-caliber TE, while Ngata might play at the level of Phil Hansen. Or if it's Hawk that falls to the Bills, they might have to choose between an Urlacher quality LB or a Ruben Brown-level OL in Justice. Don't get me wrong: I can't guarantee that Justice will be neither better nor worse than Ruben Brown, nor that Hawk will be the next Urlacher. But if the best guess of the Bills' scouting department is that Hawk and Davis will be significantly better football players than Justice or Ngata, the Bills should act accordingly. 672749[/snapback] Cool, we're on the same page now.... Will obviously be happy campers with Ferguson. What about if one of the QBs drop though? That would become a much harder decision if we cannot organize a trade down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 The JP winning the QB competition is really a foolish kind of thing, and one of the reasons I don't have huge trust in Marv and Jauron. The ONLY, ONLY, ONLY way to have any reasonable idea on whether or not JP Losman is the franchise quarterback for the Bills is to put him under center in the regular season games and let him play for awhile. The only way. Only way. Is there another way? No. They can talk all they want about winning the job and blah blah blah but it's stupid. He has great talent. He has all the tools. He has little experience. He played poorly before under terrible circumstances. He hasn't gained the full confidence of his teammates. That is only settled with live bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Cool, we're on the same page now.... Will obviously be happy campers with Ferguson. What about if one of the QBs drop though? That would become a much harder decision if we cannot organize a trade down. 672770[/snapback] A lot would depend on which QB it was that fell. Leinart has the highest probability of making a successful transition to the NFL, while Young's is the weakest. If it's Leinart, I think you have to take him. If it's Young, I think you need to go in another direction. But the real question is what the Bills should do if Cutler falls to #8, and if Ferguson, Williams, Hawk, and Davis are all off the boards, and if a reasonable trade-down doesn't present itself. I just don't know enough about Cutler to have a strong opinion about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 In this year's draft, the Bills might have to choose between, say, Vernon Davis and Ngata. Davis could be an Antonio Gates-caliber TE, while Ngata might play at the level of Phil Hansen. Or if it's Hawk that falls to the Bills, they might have to choose between an Urlacher quality LB or a Ruben Brown-level OL in Justice. Don't get me wrong: I can't guarantee that Justice will be neither better nor worse than Ruben Brown, nor that Hawk will be the next Urlacher. But if the best guess of the Bills' scouting department is that Hawk and Davis will be significantly better football players than Justice or Ngata, the Bills should act accordingly. 672749[/snapback] How on earth do you compare Ngata to Hansen? Hansen was a different type player at a different position. Ngata is more comparable to Adams, Washington or Williams, whom he will probably be better than. He has as much potential as anyone else after the magic four..Bush, Lienart, Williams and Ferguson. No one else is really a contender. So we have six or seven good players (not jim kellys...hell...not even Reggie Bushes, Super Marios or Matt Leinarts) and one of them fills a critical need. Go for the one who fills the need. Ngata (or..some argue..Bunkley.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Ngata is more comparable to Adams, Washington or Williams, whom he will probably be better than. If I thought Ngata was going to be better than Pat Williams, I'd be singing a different tune. Getting back to Cutler, it occurred to me that maybe his being surrounded with inferior talent is a good thing. Take Rob Johnson. In college and in Jacksonville, he received outstanding play from his left tackle. He wasn't known for being a sack waiting to happen until he came to Buffalo. That weakness was there all along, but it wasn't exposed until he had the misfortune of playing behind the Bills' line. Because Cutler's team wasn't as talented as most of its opponents, it's not like his teammates were in a position to cover up whatever weaknesses he might have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 2001: Nate Clements. Result: contract expired after five years.2002: Mike Williams. Result: cut after four years. 2003a: traded for Drew Bledsoe. Result: Bledsoe released after three years. 2003b: Willis McGahee. Result: McGahee failed to provide enough of an upgrade over Henry to be worth a first round pick. 2004a: Lee Evans. Result: chosen 13th overall, there is considerable doubt whether Evans can ever be the go-to guy. 2004b: Losman. Result: Losman is in serious jeopardy of losing his starting spot to Craig Nall, Green Bay's 3rd string QB in 2005. 672749[/snapback] Wow, I never noticed your sig before. Talk about spin! "There are doubts Evans can be a go to guy." No arguing with with those facts! Ever consider becoming a press secretary for the intelligent design folks? PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Wow, I never noticed your sig before. Talk about spin! "There are doubts Evans can be a go to guy." No arguing with with those facts! Ever consider becoming a press secretary for the intelligent design folks? PTR 673061[/snapback] Apparently, I've managed to come up with one of the more controversial sigs. All I'm saying with Evans is that until he proves himself as the go-to guy, you can't say it was a success to take him 13th overall. You're looking for more than just a good #2 when you take a guy 13th overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I would take Todd Collins first 4 or 5 starts over JP's...when Collins was still Kelly's back-up, he did exactly what the Bills allegedly wanted Losman to do. He played smart, un-exciting football, and managed the offense to a couple of big wins, against good teams. Even when Jimbo was gone, Collins managed to at least move the offense for the first half of his season as the #1 guy in Buffalo. Just looking at the stats, in 1997, Collins started out with totals of 299, 210, 297, and 275. The Bills were 2-2....I know stats don't tell the whole story, but how long did it take JP to even come close to those kind of yardage totals? He just could not make the plays that were there for him to make... 672602[/snapback] Dear God, are you really comparing the incontinent BILLS offense under Mularkey to the relative Ferrari that Collins was handed? Not to mention the confidence of a team that had been winning the majority of their games for a decade (probably the most overlooked part of your argument). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Dear God, are you really comparing the incontinent BILLS offense under Mularkey to the relative Ferrari that Collins was handed? Not to mention the confidence of a team that had been winning the majority of their games for a decade (probably the most overlooked part of your argument). 673154[/snapback] The Bills' offense Collins was handed was hardly a Ferrari. Collins didn't become a full-time starter until 1997. By that time, the TE position had the following players: Tony Cline, Lonnie Johnson, and Jay Riemersma. The WR corps had good players past their primes: Steve Tasker, Quinn Early, and an aging Andre Reed. Thurman Thomas was on his last legs, with Antowain Smith assuming an increasing share of the load. Look at the offensive line: Ruben Brown, Bill Conaty, John Fina, Corey Louchiey, Corbin Lacina, Jamie Nails, Jerry Ostroski, Mike Rockwood, Marcus Spriggs, and Dusty Zeigler. Not exactly the same group that provided the stellar blocking in the Raiders AFC Championship blowout back in the early '90s. The group of offensive players Losman was given to work with was remarkably similar to this: good WRs, and questionable OL. The 2005 Bills were better off at RB, while the 1997 Bills had the better TE. Neither offense was known for having high quality playcalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 hey Buftex - who are these JP-fanboys you speak of? Given what JP has accomplished so far (little) I must have missed that. CNJBBB 672745[/snapback] I am talking about those who bristle at the mere suggestion that JP deserved to be benched last season (after the Saints game), and who follow up any criticism of his poor play, with endless excuses about the coaching, the play calling, the offensive line, etc etc...all teams have those probelms. A QB's perfromance contirbutes heavily to an offensive line's performance. I think people who are suggesting that JP had "no time" to throw, are seeing things throug JP-colored glasses. Sure, the O-line was poor, but they looked a lot better when Holcomb was playing. JP was just too indecisive, and too inaccurate. Mentally, he was just not prepared to assume the starting role. Like I have always said, it doesn't mean he never will be...he just was not, in the fall of 2005. I also agree with you that people are condemning him a little too quickly. I just think he was not ready to be a starter last year, and needed a lot more work, to command the offense. As I said, he showed some considerable improvement in his return as a starter, and Mike Mularkey, despite all the criticism, was wise to sit him when he did. He was not wise to sit him the last few weeks, if, in fact he could have played. The "fan boys" I refer to, are the ones who are quick to write off any other player whose results are poor, but will bend over backwards to defend Losman's poor play, and blame it on everyone else...a good thing JP himself doesn't do this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 A lot would depend on which QB it was that fell. Leinart has the highest probability of making a successful transition to the NFL, while Young's is the weakest. If it's Leinart, I think you have to take him. If it's Young, I think you need to go in another direction. But the real question is what the Bills should do if Cutler falls to #8, and if Ferguson, Williams, Hawk, and Davis are all off the boards, and if a reasonable trade-down doesn't present itself. I just don't know enough about Cutler to have a strong opinion about this. 672944[/snapback] you hope like hell that the Rams want to trade. Linehan may make the move to put his mark on his new team, if he thinks Bulger is too injury prone to last long term, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Dear God, are you really comparing the incontinent BILLS offense under Mularkey to the relative Ferrari that Collins was handed? Not to mention the confidence of a team that had been winning the majority of their games for a decade (probably the most overlooked part of your argument). 673154[/snapback] AD, you didn't read my whole post, or I just expressed what I was trying to say poorly. It was PTR who was making the case that Losman was better than Collins, and a whole slew of other crappy Bills QB's of yesteryear. While I honestly don't think that the 1997 Bills offense was a lot more "talented" than what we had this past season, I will give you the confidence thing...were the 1997 editions of Andre Reed, Quin Early, Thurman Thomas and Lonnie Johson that much better than Eric Moulds, Lee Evans, Willis McGahee and Mark Campbell? I don't think so. I have made the argument before, and I seem to remember you agreeing, a QB bares some of the responsibilty for the ineffectiveness of the O-lines' play. My case was simply that, we had a bad O-line last year, and JP made it look even worse. I am not even blaming him, and I don't think anyone should have been surprised. He was what he was! A very raw NFL prospect, thrust into a role he wasn't really ready for. It is just the way it is. The decision to put him in the starting role, in 2005 was a very bad one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Dear God, are you really comparing the incontinent BILLS offense under Mularkey to the relative Ferrari that Collins was handed?673154[/snapback] Did you mean the incompetant Bills, or the Bills who couldn't control their bladders? PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 The JP winning the QB competition is really a foolish kind of thing, and one of the reasons I don't have huge trust in Marv and Jauron. The ONLY, ONLY, ONLY way to have any reasonable idea on whether or not JP Losman is the franchise quarterback for the Bills is to put him under center in the regular season games and let him play for awhile. The only way. Only way. Is there another way? No. They can talk all they want about winning the job and blah blah blah but it's stupid. He has great talent. He has all the tools. He has little experience. He played poorly before under terrible circumstances. He hasn't gained the full confidence of his teammates. That is only settled with live bullets. 672783[/snapback] And what if the collective trust of the Bills coaches, front office, and scouts decide that losman isn't it. Do you go along with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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