Tom Coughlin in the playoffs...

[JDG]

I guess I need to have my eyes checked out as people are doing a better job describing what I see.

 

For starters, I never said anything remotely approaching Losman's stats being better than Eli's.  But I have been pouring water on Eli's parade all year long, because he has been underwhelming.  If you don't think that Eli has been making bad decisions, you must not have seen the two Cowboys games.

 

The major difference between the two was that when Eli threw up a stupid pass, for some reason, Plaxico usually came down with it.  Losman never got that kind of play from his lead WR early in the season to establish the tempo.

 

Do you find it a coincidence that when Plaxico & Shockey pulled a disappearing act in Sunday's game, Eli looked very pedestrian?

 

I see the two of them playing at a very similar level at this point, even if you account for Manning's pedigree and better college experience.  It's just that one guy got a lot more help from his teammates.

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Gerry,

 

I know you quoted my post, but was this post really in response to me?

 

I never accused you of calling Losman's stats better than Eli's. I accused you of calling Losman "on par" with Eli, as the text you quoted indicates.

 

I also never accused Eli of not making bad decisions. Indeed, elsewhere in the post you quote, I accused Eli of making "truly bad decisions."

 

With all that being said, you do have a fair point about Eli's differing surrounding cast. If forced to choose, I probably disagree about that supporting cast explaining the disparity in stats, but it is at least a fair point. The NY Giants are blessed with some really unique play-makers in Tiki Barber (who else has a Tiki Barber?), Jeremy Shockey, and then having Strahan and Umeniyora as bookends on the other side of the ball. So, o.k., there are some differences there - but I'd also argue that Losman bears some of the blame for not figuring out that he should be chucking the ball to Eric Moulds and not Josh Reed. ;-)

 

JDG

[Lori]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but Eli Manning's rating for 2005 is 75.9, while Losman's is just 64.9.

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And they both pale in comparison to the rating ##s RJ used to put up. In fact, Rob Johnson's career QB rating in Buffalo (85.5) is higher than Doug Flutie's, Drew Bledsoe's, and Jim Kelly's.

 

The numbers never lie... but sometimes they don't tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, either....

[dave mcbride]

And they both pale in comparison to the rating ##s RJ used to put up. In fact, Rob Johnson's career QB rating in Buffalo (85.5) is higher than Doug Flutie's, Drew Bledsoe's, and Jim Kelly's.

 

The numbers never lie... but sometimes they don't tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, either....

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but that number doesn't factor in sacks. i remember a game against new orleans at the end of the 98 season that the bills won easily with rj at qb, but he was sacked something like 8 times. now of course they won that game, but the game itself was predictive of his achilles heel -- bad pocket sense. another thing about him he put up good stats when he appeared sporadically, but when the team truly became his (in 01) he was wretched. of course, the team was bad, but avp played a little better than him with the same cast of characters.

[Lori]

but that number doesn't factor in sacks. i remember a game against new orleans at the end of the 98 season that the bills won easily with rj at qb, but he was sacked something like 8 times. now of course they won that game, but the game itself was predictive of his achilles heel -- bad pocket sense. another thing about him he put up good stats when he appeared sporadically, but when the team truly became his (in 01) he was wretched. of course, the team was bad, but avp played a little better than him with the same cast of characters.

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In other words, you don't like the way the QB rating stat is compiled. Me neither, if that wasn't clear from the first post...

[SDS]

but that number doesn't factor in sacks. i remember a game against new orleans at the end of the 98 season that the bills won easily with rj at qb, but he was sacked something like 8 times. now of course they won that game, but the game itself was predictive of his achilles heel -- bad pocket sense. another thing about him he put up good stats when he appeared sporadically, but when the team truly became his (in 01) he was wretched. of course, the team was bad, but avp played a little better than him with the same cast of characters.

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or 5... +/- 60% is usually acceptable error. Unless those added three sacks were his TD passes that game.

[dave mcbride]

or 5... +/- 60% is usually acceptable error.  Unless those added three sacks were his TD passes that game.

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didn't look it up - sorry. i was working from (faulty) memory. regardless, it was a lot for a victory. in any event, i think he still has the most sacks per attempt record in league history. and if he doesn't, he's right near the top.

 

overall, though, he of course had a good game that game. that doesn't mean that his career didn't suck overall, though ...

[Alaska Darin]

So, o.k., there are some differences there - but I'd also argue that Losman bears some of the blame for not figuring out that he should be chucking the ball to Eric Moulds and not Josh Reed. ;-)

 

JDG

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Perhaps Eric Moulds should have spent more time running his routes at full speed instead of bitching like a schoolgirl wearing white when she got her first period.

[DC Mom]

Similarly, when Losman is given the chance to start and finish 20+ games in the league, then we can realistically look at whether or not it's appropriate to label him a "bust."

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How many games did we give Todd Collins before we labeled him a bust?

[JDG]

How many games did we give Todd Collins before we labeled him a bust?

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We gave Todd Collins a game before calling him a bust?

[NYGPopgun10]

We gave Todd Collins a game before calling him a bust?

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Todd Collins was the sh-- at Michigan!

[NYGPopgun10]

I guess I need to have my eyes checked out as people are doing a better job describing what I see.

 

For starters, I never said anything remotely approaching Losman's stats being better than Eli's.  But I have been pouring water on Eli's parade all year long, because he has been underwhelming.  If you don't think that Eli has been making bad decisions, you must not have seen the two Cowboys games.

 

The major difference between the two was that when Eli threw up a stupid pass, for some reason, Plaxico usually came down with it.  Losman never got that kind of play from his lead WR early in the season to establish the tempo.

 

Do you find it a coincidence that when Plaxico & Shockey pulled a disappearing act in Sunday's game, Eli looked very pedestrian?

 

I see the two of them playing at a very similar level at this point, even if you account for Manning's pedigree and better college experience.  It's just that one guy got a lot more help from his teammates.

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Well, some of what you say is accurate about Eli. There were times this year where he looked really good and other times where he was underwhelming. My biggest gripe with him is his consistency throwing the ball. That and sometimes, he doesn't do a good job reading defenses. Nobody said he would be great in his first full year as the starter. He did progress. A plus is how poised he was late in fourth quarters. He was good in those situations and the 2:00 drill as well before the half.

 

Did he have many weapons to utilize? Absolutely. And did Burress and Shockey make some great catches? Sure they did. But what QB doesn't have good receivers who can make plays? Not every pass is going to be perfect a la Eli's brother, whose receivers are always wide open. If you had guys that open with a line as good as his, you'd be able to make those throws too.

 

The key to stopping the Giants was containing Tiki. That's true. But heck. Isn't the key to putting the QB under the gun stuffing the run? Look how ordinary Peyton looked against San Diego. When the most underappreciated player Edgerrin James doesn't have a big game, the Colts offense becomes one dimensional and Peyton- the best QB can look pretty normal.

 

Because it puts more pressure on. QBs take time to develop. It's not all roses right away. That's why I won't go berserk about Sunday. It's a process.

 

And let's not forget how essential a good offensive line is. Blocking is essential for any success you have as an offense. The Giants were banged up on both sides of the ball down the stretch and faced a very fast Carolina defense. It showed. They knew exactly what our offense was running. I wonder whose fault that was.

 

You'd think our staff could have actually made some adjustments. But maybe they watched too much of USC against Texas Wednesday.

[GG]

Perhaps Eric Moulds should have spent more time running his routes at full speed instead of bitching like a schoolgirl wearing white when she got her first period.

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Amazing what aspects of the game never make it to the statisticians table....

[GG]

Well, some of what you say is accurate about Eli. There were times this year where he looked really good and other times where he was underwhelming. My biggest gripe with him is his consistency throwing the ball. That and sometimes, he doesn't do a good job reading defenses. Nobody said he would be great in his first full year as the starter. He did progress. A plus is how poised he was late in fourth quarters. He was good in those situations and the 2:00 drill as well before the half.

 

Did he have many weapons to utilize? Absolutely. And did Burress and Shockey make some great catches? Sure they did. But what QB doesn't have good receivers who can make plays? Not every pass is going to be perfect a la Eli's brother, whose receivers are always wide open. If you had guys that open with a line as good as his, you'd be able to make those throws too.

 

The key to stopping the Giants was containing Tiki. That's true. But heck. Isn't the key to putting the QB under the gun stuffing the run? Look how ordinary Peyton looked against San Diego. When the most underappreciated player Edgerrin James doesn't have a big game, the Colts offense becomes one dimensional and Peyton- the best QB can look pretty normal.

 

Because it puts more pressure on. QBs take time to develop. It's not all roses right away. That's why I won't go berserk about Sunday. It's a process.

 

And let's not forget how essential a good offensive line is. Blocking is essential for any success you have as an offense. The Giants were banged up on both sides of the ball down the stretch and faced a very fast Carolina defense. It showed. They knew exactly what our offense was running. I wonder whose fault that was.

 

You'd think our staff could have actually made some adjustments. But maybe they watched too much of USC against Texas Wednesday.

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Thanks for the explanation of the Giants season, which really isn't part of this thread. Perhaps you should call in to WFAN and get your compatriots off the ledge (Check that, don't do it, I could use an easier commute)

 

The point I was trying to make, and maybe it needs repeating, is that Losman is taking a well deserved beating by many here, but he certainly did not get the benefit of his team mates playing hard for him, like Eli did. In the games that I've seen Eli play, he did not look too much better than Losman. The results, however, were vastly different.

 

As to your comparison tagline, you must be joking that Eli is a better QB than Ben at this point.

[JDG]

Amazing what aspects of the game never make it to the statisticians table....

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So, are you saying that Eric Moulds refused to run routes for JP Losman, but then turned it on again for Holcomb? I'm not saying that's impossible - but serious charges demand serious evidence, not snide one-liners......

 

JDG

[Bill from NYC]

So, are you saying that Eric Moulds refused to run routes for JP Losman, but then turned it on again for Holcomb?  I'm not saying that's impossible - but serious charges demand serious evidence, not snide one-liners......

 

JDG

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Could it be that Eric Moulds just isn't that good any more John? He is scheduled to count 10.85 mil. in 06. I would have to search all of the rosters, but I am thinking that almost every team in football has a better #1 receiver than Eric Moulds.

[Alaska Darin]

So, are you saying that Eric Moulds refused to run routes for JP Losman, but then turned it on again for Holcomb?  I'm not saying that's impossible - but serious charges demand serious evidence, not snide one-liners......

 

JDG

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Watch the film.

[SDS]

Watch the film.

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how do you see him when the camera is on the QB?

[GG]

So, are you saying that Eric Moulds refused to run routes for JP Losman, but then turned it on again for Holcomb?  I'm not saying that's impossible - but serious charges demand serious evidence, not snide one-liners......

 

JDG

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Yes, I am saying that in the early season games, I saw Eric Moulds run half-hearted routes and alligator arm passes.

 

We probably won't know whether there were personality conflicts between JP & EM that caused it, or whether JP was just too stupid to throw to EM >50% of the time. But we're certainly learning more now that the locker room was far from united in annointing Losman as a starter without competition.

[JDG]

Could it be that Eric Moulds just isn't that good any more John? He is scheduled to count 10.85 mil. in 06. I would have to search all of the rosters, but I am thinking that almost every team in football has a better #1 receiver than Eric Moulds. 

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It's possible that Eric Moulds is not a good player any more, but I don't think that is the case. I think we saw the real Eric Moulds when we started a QB, Kelly Holcomb, who could get him the ball.

 

While I dislike the term "#1 WR", I think that Eric Moulds, who played only 14 games this year, at minimum belongs in the same group as the leading pass-catcher for a number of teams, including, Derrick Mason (Ravens), Antonio Bryant (Browns), Jimmy Smith (Jaguars), Laverneas Coles (Jets), Eddie Kennison (Chiefs), Drew Bennett (Titans), Michael Jenkins/Brian Finneran (Falcons), Muhsin Muhammad (Bears), Keyshawn Johnson/Terry Glenn (Cowboys), Travis Taylor (Vikings), Joe Horn/Donte Stallworth (Saints), Reggie Brown/Greg Lewis (Eagles), and Brandon Lloyd/Arnaz Battle (49ers).

 

Look, I'm hardly saying the Moulds is a better player than everyone listed. We can quibble about Laverneas Coles or Muhsin Muhammad or whomever you want to pick out. I do feel very confident in saying, however, that Eric Moulds is *not* the worst starting WR, or even the worst leading pass-catcher in the League.

 

If the Bills bring Eric Moulds back next year, which I hope we do, the Bills are *not* going to be a team with a #1 WR. We simply will not have one. There isn't going to be a "Randy Ratio". We will be a team with two good WR's, each of whom are going to get their opportunities. That might not be a recipe for getting one WR the gaudy stats and fantasy-football title of "#1 WR" necessary to go to Hawai'i in February, but I think that it will be sound football.

 

I also believe that Eric Moulds has shown in the games with Kelly Holcomb under center that he definitely can still play in the League. Maybe Eric Moulds started dogging it with Losman under center - they certainly don't show that on the games at the bar that I get to see - but I am reluctant to believe that Moulds suddenly turned it on once Holcomb came back from his injury. But I do think the fact that Losman seems to throw far more balls in the direction of Josh Reed than he does in the direction of Eric Moulds is just another leg of the case against Losman's miserable performance this year, based on what Moulds was able to do once Holcomb started getting him the ball.

 

JDG

[dave mcbride]

It's possible that Eric Moulds is not a good player any more, but I don't think that is the case.  I think we saw the real Eric Moulds when we started a QB, Kelly Holcomb, who could get him the ball. 

 

While I dislike the term "#1 WR", I think that Eric Moulds, who played only 14 games this year, at minimum belongs in the same group as the leading pass-catcher for a number of teams, including, Derrick Mason (Ravens), Antonio Bryant (Browns), Jimmy Smith (Jaguars), Laverneas Coles (Jets), Eddie Kennison (Chiefs), Drew Bennett (Titans), Michael Jenkins/Brian Finneran (Falcons),  Muhsin Muhammad (Bears), Keyshawn Johnson/Terry Glenn (Cowboys), Travis Taylor (Vikings), Joe Horn/Donte Stallworth (Saints), Reggie Brown/Greg Lewis (Eagles), and Brandon Lloyd/Arnaz Battle (49ers).

 

Look, I'm hardly saying the Moulds is a better player than everyone listed.  We can quibble about Laverneas Coles or Muhsin Muhammad or whomever you want to pick out.  I do feel very confident in saying, however, that Eric Moulds is *not* the worst starting WR, or even the worst leading pass-catcher in the League. 

 

If the Bills bring Eric Moulds back next year, which I hope we do, the Bills are *not* going to be a team with a #1 WR.    We simply will not have one.  There isn't going to be a "Randy Ratio".    We will be a team with two good WR's, each of whom are going to get their opportunities.  That might not be a recipe for getting one WR the gaudy stats and fantasy-football title of "#1 WR" necessary to go to Hawai'i in February, but I think that it will be sound football. 

 

I also believe that Eric Moulds has shown in the games with Kelly Holcomb under center that he definitely can still play in the League.  Maybe Eric Moulds started dogging it with Losman under center - they certainly don't show that on the games at the bar that I get to see - but I am reluctant to believe that Moulds suddenly turned it on once Holcomb came back from his injury.  But I do think the fact that Losman seems to throw far more balls in the direction of Josh Reed than he does in the direction of Eric Moulds is just another leg of the case against Losman's miserable performance this year, based on what Moulds was able to do once Holcomb started getting him the ball.

 

JDG

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for the last 3 games of this past season, eric moulds was hands down the best player on the bills offense. that bodes well, i think.

 

badolbilz had a post not long back saying that at least in terms of receiving, moulds had transformed into the bills' first constant short-to-midrange middle-of- the-field receiving threat since mckeller. i know it's a crazy idea, but he's a big, strong guy, and a lot of the best tight ends (gates, shannon sharpe, etc.) are average blockers at best. could he perform a modified version of that role? mularkey is supposed to be creative -- here's an idea for him.