Alaska Darin Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Completely agree with this. It was used by Ron Wolf with the Packers and proved successful. Granted he didn't need any quarterbacks as Farve was there, but the list of those he discovered in late rounds is impressive. Matt Hasselback Mark Brunell Aaron Brooks Kurt Warner Why don't more teams do this?!?!? 549369[/snapback] Because most teams don't have a Brett Favre to play every snap while they teach other guys to be good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOUTBOX MONSTER! Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Because most teams don't have a Brett Favre to play every snap while they teach other guys to be good players. 549379[/snapback] Still seems that one late pick, or even an undrafted rookie, would be worth a look each season. Give them the number three spot or throw them on the practice squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Manning 1stPlummer 2nd Palmer 1st Brady 6th Rothlesberger 1st Leftwich 1st Hasselback 6th Grossman 1st Manning 1st Simms 3rd Delhomme undrafted Brunell 6th Seven of the 12 playoff teams sport QBs that were drafted in the first round (granted Leftwhich may or may not reclaim his starting spot this year if/when healthy). I'm not going to argue that there aren't other ways of getting a QB, obviously there are but I think you're undervauling grabbing a guy with a good pedigree coming out of school. That beging said it seems to be about a 50/50 shot with any QBs drafted in the 1st but the same can pretty much be said of any other position. 548987[/snapback] I have issues of using Grossman for you arguement, let's face it Orton was the QB for the Bears for most of the season which brings things 6 of 12 which tells me that drafting a QB in Round 1 is still a 50/50 proposition. If had the choice way on the side against taking a QB in the 1st. As to me rather a have a better team with an average QB than a better QB and average team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I have issues of using Grossman for you arguement, let's face it Orton was the QB for the Bears for most of the season which brings things 6 of 12 which tells me that drafting a QB in Round 1 is still a 50/50 proposition. If had the choice way on the side against taking a QB in the 1st. As to me rather a have a better team with an average QB than a better QB and average team. 549485[/snapback] It's pretty much 50/50 proposition no matter what position you draft in the first round, QBs are no different in that regards. They are different in that you can't hide them while they learn unless you already have a strong team around them. My main beef with what you say above is the last part. What does using one 1st round draft pick have to do with having a better overall team vs. an average overall team? If a team uses the pick on a CB suddenly they'll have a better team and and average QB but if they use it on a QB they'll have an average team and a better QB? Drafting a QB in the first round doesn't prevent a GM from putting together a "better (overall) team", the things aren't mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 I have issues of using Grossman for you arguement, let's face it Orton was the QB for the Bears for most of the season which brings things 6 of 12 which tells me that drafting a QB in Round 1 is still a 50/50 proposition. If had the choice way on the side against taking a QB in the 1st. As to me rather a have a better team with an average QB than a better QB and average team. 549485[/snapback] QB is probably the one position that makes an average team "better".... Just look at the Pats... they are not loaded with top-notch offensive talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 It's pretty much 50/50 proposition no matter what position you draft in the first round, QBs are no different in that regards. They are different in that you can't hide them while they learn unless you already have a strong team around them. My main beef with what you say above is the last part. What does using one 1st round draft pick have to do with having a better overall team vs. an average overall team? If a team uses the pick on a CB suddenly they'll have a better team and and average QB but if they use it on a QB they'll have an average team and a better QB? Drafting a QB in the first round doesn't prevent a GM from putting together a "better (overall) team", the things aren't mutually exclusive. 549500[/snapback] Drafting a QB in the first round can prevent a GM from putting together a better overall team. I can argue the Julius Peppers vs Joey Harrington argument. Tell me do you think the Panthers would be in the same position they are today had they passed on Peppers for the sake of Harrington? I say no. You could be right about the mutually exclusive thing but that's why I think that's why we're having this debate in the first place as we seem to making it so. Of course I could be in the minority when feel that far more often a team leads a QB to victory then vice versa. While good QB play is a stable of winning I think a bigger stable is the play of the running game, defense and special teams ie there is no 1 (ie QB) greater than the whole (the team) . Case in point, there's no doubt in my mind that Dan Marino was a better QB than Jim Kelly yet I feel the Bills teams of the 90s had far and away better overall talent then the 90s Dolphins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QB is probably the one position that makes an average team "better".... Just look at the Pats... they are not loaded with top-notch offensive talent. 549509[/snapback] Very true. They also make a team more exciting, thus able to sell more tickets. It is sad that the Bills have devoted so many resources in a failing quest to fill the shoes of Jim Kelly. Imo, the Bills are a prime example of a team that would have been better served trying to build from other directions. Other cold weather teams such as the Bears, Giants, Ravens, and Redskins were successful doing so. Btw, I do admit to the luxury of 20/20 hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Drafting a QB in the first round can prevent a GM from putting together a better overall team. I can argue the Julius Peppers vs Joey Harrington argument. Tell me do you think the Panthers would be in the same position they are today had they passed on Peppers for the sake of Harrington? I say no. You could be right about the mutually exclusive thing but that's why I think that's why we're having this debate in the first place as we seem to making it so. Of course I could be in the minority when feel that far more often a team leads a QB to victory then vice versa. While good QB play is a stable of winning I think a bigger stable is the play of the running game, defense and special teams ie there is no 1 (ie QB) greater than the whole (the team) . Case in point, there's no doubt in my mind that Dan Marino was a better QB than Jim Kelly yet I feel the Bills teams of the 90s had far and away better overall talent then the 90s Dolphins. 549519[/snapback] quick - payton manning or andre "the next bruce smith" wadsworth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Very true. They also make a team more exciting, thus able to sell more tickets. It is sad that the Bills have devoted so many resources in a failing quest to fill the shoes of Jim Kelly. Imo, the Bills are a prime example of a team that would have been better served trying to build from other directions. Other cold weather teams such as the Bears, Giants, Ravens, and Redskins were successful doing so. Btw, I do admit to the luxury of 20/20 hindsight. 549531[/snapback] In the last 3 drafts each of those other cold weather teams you mention has drafted a QB in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 quick - payton manning or andre "the next bruce smith" wadsworth? 549543[/snapback] Last I checked neither has won a NFL Championship. Of course Wadsworth also had injury problems which caused him to be a bust, not a lack of talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 QB is probably the one position that makes an average team "better".... Just look at the Pats... they are not loaded with top-notch offensive talent. 549509[/snapback] Yet has it been Brady (a 6th Round pick) been leading the Pats to Super Bowls are the front 7 of a defense inwhich all but one wasn't taken in the 1st Round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Last I checked neither has won a NFL Championship. Of course Wadsworth also had injury problems which caused him to be a bust, not a lack of talent. 549556[/snapback] that may change in about a month. in any event, i don't regard winning the super bowl as the be all and end all of judging a player. kelly never won one, but if al edwards does what he is supposed to do and makes a block, thurman runs out of bounds at the 20 instead of the 30 and the bills win the super bowl. re wadsworth, you're right - he did have injuries. but they were chronic and seemingly everywhere. so it makes you wonder. courtney brown -- a guy who was more of a sure thing than peppers and who actually looked great at the beginning of his second season -- is a similar case. the rate of bust defensive ends is pretty high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 that may change in about a month. in any event, i don't regard winning the super bowl as the be all and end all of judging a player. kelly never won one, but if al edwards does what he is supposed to do and makes a block, thurman runs out of bounds at the 20 instead of the 30 and the bills win the super bowl. re wadsworth, you're right - he did have injuries. but they were chronic and seemingly everywhere. so it makes you wonder. courtney brown -- a guy who was more of a sure thing than peppers and who actually looked great at the beginning of his second season -- is a similar case. the rate of bust defensive ends is pretty high. 549565[/snapback] Yet but now Courtney's on a team in the playoffs with a QB that was selected in the 2nd Round hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Yet has it been Brady (a 6th Round pick) been leading the Pats to Super Bowls are the front 7 of a defense inwhich all but one wasn't taken in the 1st Round? 549561[/snapback] Nobody is arguing that a QB can do it all on his own. Only that quality play and stability at the QB position make it much easier to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 In the last 3 drafts each of those other cold weather teams you mention has drafted a QB in the first round. 549553[/snapback] Very good point. I am not necessarily against drafting a 1st round qb. I simply believe that other positions should probably be in place before doing so. It also helps to draft the RIGHT first round qb. If you and I were to list the money/draft selections that were thrown away by the Bills trying to get the next Jim Kelly, we would probably both be depressed. After all this, the results are clear. We are 5-11 and there is every possibility that we STILL do not have a good qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Nobody is arguing that a QB can do it all on his own. Only that quality play and stability at the QB position make it much easier to win. 549574[/snapback] True you're going to win if you have a better than average QB but to me you can find them just as easy after Round 1 than in Round 1. That's why I take other positions (preferably in the trenches) in Round 1 (in the hopes that a player lives up to his draft billing) ie build a better team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Yet but now Courtney's on a team in the playoffs with a QB that was selected in the 2nd Round hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 549570[/snapback] well, plummer was selected something like 35th overall. so he was high. as for brown, the broncos are not going the playoffs because of him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 well, plummer was selected something like 35th overall. so he was high. as for brown, the broncos are not going the playoffs because of him! 549596[/snapback] p.s. i don't really have a dog in this qb/first round fight. the way to look at it, as i see it, is whether you need an elite qb to win. for instance, brady may not have been drafted in the first round, but it's pretty obvious that he's a first round talent that other teams would trade more than one number 1 to get. the pats have therefore locked him up. same with plummer - denver paid him first round talent money when they got him. favre was drafted very early in the second, but it's obvious afterward that he was a #1 overall talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 well, plummer was selected something like 35th overall. so he was high. as for brown, the broncos are not going the playoffs because of him! 549596[/snapback] Yet Brown (and others on the D) that helped make the Broncos 13-3 this year and while Plummer did play better this year, would hardly call him the sole reason they're going to the playoffs too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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