The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Good tune, read a book about the uboats destroying many ships off the eastern seaboard from north carolina to florida...Towns and cities with lights on silloquetting merchant vessels at night, made the job easy for the germans...People would notice the explosians and didn't know it was the germans attacking right off the U.S. eastern seaboard....U boat's were affecting supplies to england and going to change possible outcome of the war...Luckily,, hitler ordered the uboats back to europe, around norway I believe...The uboat commander could'nt believe the success they were having and then having to leave...

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"Operation Drumbeat". Actually, the U-boats stuck around well into 1943 (and longer in the Caribbean and off Brazil)...but the Navy introduced coastal convoying in mid-42, which significantly decreased sinkings.

 

I believe Johnny Cash wrote a song about it, before he converted to Buddhism...

[cromagnum]

"Operation Drumbeat".  Actually, the U-boats stuck around well into 1943 (and longer in the Caribbean and off Brazil)...but the Navy introduced coastal convoying in mid-42, which significantly decreased sinkings.

 

I believe Johnny Cash wrote a song about it, before he converted to Buddhism... 

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In the book, it mentioned convoying and how the uboats would attack the the largest tonnage first, and had competition with other uboat commanders for tonnage sunk....And the goverment did not order blackouts, which aided the uboats at periscope depth to follow the convoy and select the tonnage to go down first...The way it was described in the book, the uboats would check what went down by what was floating, oil, produce, and natural rubber... Useing the gulfstream the u's made the the merchant's ships try the costline route only to be silloqueted by shore lights... Johnny cash actually wrote the song loveboat for abc back in the 70's

[wnyguy]

"Operation Drumbeat".  Actually, the U-boats stuck around well into 1943 (and longer in the Caribbean and off Brazil)...but the Navy introduced coastal convoying in mid-42, which significantly decreased sinkings.

 

I believe Johnny Cash wrote a song about it, before he converted to Buddhism... 

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Of course you know Johnny Cash shortened his name for show biz his birth name is Johnny Cassius Clay.

[30dive]

The thread that keeps on giving

[KRC]

lol, where do you get that from?

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The restraining order...

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Of course you know Johnny Cash shortened his name for show biz his birth name is Johnny Cassius Clay.

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I remember that from the movie "Ali". Jamie Foxx really bulked up for that role.

[Ghost of BiB]

I remember that from the movie "Ali".  Jamie Foxx really bulked up for that role.

506488[/snapback]

 

Wasn't Carl Weathers in that too? He had that big fight scene with that Predator thing. I think Foxx Mulder wrote the theme music for that, but I'm not sure.

[The Dean]

Wasn't Carl Weathers in that too? He had that big fight scene with that Predator thing. I think Foxx Mulder wrote the theme music for that, but I'm not sure.

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Foxx Mulder....X-Files?

[Pete]

Foxx Mulder....X-Files?

506500[/snapback]

Spooky

[ExiledInIllinois]

Good tune, read a book about the uboats destroying many ships off the eastern seaboard from north carolina to florida...Towns and cities with lights on silloquetting merchant vessels at night, made the job easy for the germans...People would notice the explosians and didn't know it was the germans attacking right off the U.S. eastern seaboard....U boat's were affecting supplies to england and going to change possible outcome of the war...Luckily,, hitler ordered the uboats back to europe, around norway I believe...The uboat commander could'nt believe the success they were having and then having to leave...

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Interesting. The ICWW (InterCoastal WaterWay) was made during that time. Having a inland water route from NYC to the tip of Texas was a very valuable asset.

 

But, once they broke harbor to head across the pond was another story I imagine.

[ExiledInIllinois]

In the book, it mentioned convoying and how the uboats would attack the the largest tonnage first, and had  competition with other uboat commanders for tonnage sunk....And the goverment did not order blackouts, which aided the uboats at periscope depth to follow the convoy and select the tonnage to go down first...The way it was described in the book, the uboats would check what went down by what was floating, oil, produce, and natural rubber... Useing the gulfstream the u's made the the merchant's ships try the costline route only to be silloqueted by shore lights...   Johnny cash actually wrote the song loveboat for abc back in the 70's

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Hence the ICWW, as I mentioned.

 

Problem for U-Boats would would have been shallow project depth and confined area?

 

Problems for shipping would have been having to break-bulk their cargos to ocean going vessels.

 

To tie this into the Edmund Fitz... ... Even the Soo (Sault Ste. Marie) had "sub nets" in place during the war! How exactly they would have made it into the lakes 15-20 years before a canalized SeaWay is beyond me? Any help CTM?

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Hence the ICWW, as I mentioned.

 

Problem for U-Boats would would have been shallow project depth and confined area?

 

Not a problem at all, considering the anti-sub effort off the East Coast amounted to something like six entire ships. Standard doctrine at the time was night surface attacks anyway, in which case the shallowness of the water and confined sea room hardly matters, considering that U-boats were actually fairly fast (18 knots clean, probably 16 in practice) on the surface.

 

Problems for shipping would have been having to break-bulk their cargos to ocean going vessels.

 

Which was the original thinking, too...until they realized that it hardly mattered either way if the cargo was at the bottom of the ocean.

 

To tie this into the Edmund Fitz...     ... Even the Soo (Sault Ste. Marie) had "sub nets" in place during the war!  How exactly they would have made it into the lakes 15-20 years before a canalized SeaWay is beyond me?  Any help CTM?

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Probably just over-cautious - better to have and not need than need and not have, and all that. Part of the motivation was undoubtedly that u-boats had penetrated "impenetrable" places before, such as when Gunther Prien entered the anchorage at Scapa Flow and sunk the battleship Royal Oak (I believe. One of that class, at least).

[ExiledInIllinois]

Probably just over-cautious - better to have and not need than need and not have, and all that.  Part of the motivation was undoubtedly that u-boats had penetrated "impenetrable" places before, such as when Gunther Prien entered the anchorage at Scapa Flow and sunk the battleship Royal Oak (I believe.  One of that class, at least).

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So right... Just imagine what they could if they got in (the emmense steel industry at that time... Not to mention the ore (and other raw materials) especially out of the Mesabi Range)... But, how would they "survive" in there (Great Lakes)after the attacks?

 

The Edmund Fitzgerald did go down with 26,000 ton of taconite from that area.

[linksfiend]

I've read this thread twice.  I give up.  Can't understand any of it.  Must be a generational thing.  Nope - can't be that. Lana doesn't get it either.....

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Well I found the thread quite amusing. Almost as amusing as when the title is sung in <this version> of the Edmund Fitzgerald

[ieatcrayonz]

I remember that from the movie "Ali".  Jamie Foxx really bulked up for that role.

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I'm pretty sure it was Red Foxx. He beat the living crap out of Grady in that flick.

[Taro T]

I'm pretty sure it was Red Foxx.  He beat the living crap out of Grady in that flick.

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No, it wasn't Red Foxx, it was Red Green. The only reason he won the fight was due to the extra roll of duct tape he had hidden in each of his gloves. If Mr. T hadn't been there protecting him, there'd have been heck to pay.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

by Gordon Lightfoot

 

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down

Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead

When the skies of November turn gloomy.

 

With a load of iron ore - 26,000 tons more

Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty

That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed

When the gales of November came early

 

The ship was the pride of the American side

Coming back from some mill in Wisconson

As the big freighters go it was bigger than most

With a crew and the Captain well seasoned.

 

Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms

When they left fully loaded for Cleveland

And later that night when the ships bell rang

Could it be the North Wind they'd been feeling.

 

The wind in the wires made a tattletale sound

And a wave broke over the railing

And every man knew, as the Captain did, too,

T'was the witch of November come stealing.

 

The dawn came late and the breakfast had to wait

When the gales of November came slashing

When afternoon came it was freezing rain

In the face of a hurricane West Wind

 

When supper time came the old cook came on deck

Saying fellows it's too rough to feed ya

At 7PM a main hatchway caved in

He said fellas it's been good to know ya.

 

The Captain wired in he had water coming in

And the good ship and crew was in peril

And later that night when his lights went out of sight

Came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

 

Does anyone know where the love of God goes

When the words turn the minutes to hours

The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay

If they'd fifteen more miles behind her.

 

They might have split up or they might have capsized

They may have broke deep and took water

And all that remains is the faces and the names

Of the wives and the sons and the daughters.

 

Lake Huron rolls, Superior sings

In the ruins of her ice water mansion

Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams,

The islands and bays are for sportsmen.

 

And farther below Lake Ontario

Takes in what Lake Erie can send her

And the iron boats go as the mariners all know

With the gales of November remembered.

 

In a musty old hall in Detroit they prayed

In the Maritime Sailors' Cathedral

The church bell chimed, 'til it rang 29 times

For each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald.

 

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down

Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

Superior, they say, never gives up her dead

When the gales of November come early.

© 1976 Moose Music, Inc.

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If I remember correctly that storm was a heck of a storm across entire great lakes. That same night a tanker on lake Erie was also having major problems. Used to live right on the lake front and those November storms were as wicked as they get.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

So right... Just imagine what they could if they got in (the emmense steel industry at that time... Not to mention the ore (and other raw materials) especially out of the Mesabi Range)... But, how would they "survive" in there (Great Lakes)after the attacks?

 

Define "survive"? The response to a hypothetical u-boat attack in the Great Lakes would have been late, haphazard. and uncoordinated at best, considering every meaningful asset was in the Atlantic. But regardless...a u-boat would have maybe a week's endurance at that point, before it had to run home.

 

Another thing to consider is that a lot of smaller ships (US submarines, Coast Guard forces, destroyer escorts) were worked up in the Great Lakes prior to deployment. Screw commerce, imagine the damage to the war effort by the disruption of training.

 

Moot point anyway, since a u-boat never would have penetrated to the Great Lakes. It couldn't have made it's way up the St. Lawrence against the flow of the river. Hell, Prien barely made it into Scapa Flow against the tide.

 

The Edmund Fitzgerald did go down with 26,000 ton of taconite from that area.

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Moot point as well. Lots of that ore that got shipped over the Great Lakes got shipped over the Atlantic as well...and sunk there.

[Campy]

So right... Just imagine what they could if they got in (the emmense steel industry at that time... Not to mention the ore (and other raw materials) especially out of the Mesabi Range)... But, how would they "survive" in there (Great Lakes)after the attacks?

 

The Edmund Fitzgerald did go down with 26,000 ton of taconite from that area.

506719[/snapback]

There are well-documented sabotage attacks on staging warehouses (for lack of a better, ie, more accurate term) in New Jersey, including one at a munitions dump that was so big it blew out windows across the river in NYC.

 

Afer a U-Boat was sunk, a dead German submariner washed up on the shore here. In his pocket was a movie ticket stub from a theater in downtown Norfolk.

[The Dean]

If I remember correctly that storm was a heck of a storm across entire great lakes.  That same night a tanker on lake Erie was also having major problems.  Used to live right on the lake front and those November storms were as wicked as they get.

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I'm certain (and you'd know this if you read through this thread) that you are mistaken.