SlamnSam Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 ..not by a longshot..it is the suspect play of the offensive line..along with the even more suspect play of the defense as a whole...it is an obvious, glaring problem that gray's defensive schemes do NOT work this year as a result of having to compensate for the lack of penetration in the run defense..simply put we MUST put 8 in the box ALONG WITH not blitz every down to have any form of effect on our opponents run game..our opponent can do what we cannot..balance the run and the pass on offense...and again, its not because of holcomb that our passing game is inefficient, in fact, i only remember him missing one throw (for freddy smith) the entire game..while receiving no support..simply put, this offensive line is designed for a running offense 100%..and 0% for a passing offense..which is needed if at ANY point we are down in a football game (i.e. the second half today) So personally, i think there is NO need to put losman in other than to state that we have given up on this team this year, and we want losman to see game action...BUT..if by some miracle, the run defense and oline figure their s#$^ out and we restart to become competitive..i want holcomb behind center..any other thoughts?? 484173[/snapback] Your kidding right? You really think Losman would have been as bad as Holcomb? Holcomb does not give this team a chance to win. We do not need a bus driver at QB, we need someone who can do something. What is somewhat disturbing is that when the game was totally lost MM didnt even send Losman in for a spark to the team. Does that even make sense? No it dosent, therefore we are going nowhere for a long time, if ever. When MM finally gets canned we wont have any players left on this team. You either have to adapt or die, right now the team is dying. The only thing that will give us a chance is to put Losman back in and let him make his mistakes now. Holcomb is going to get us nowhere except deeper in the hole with no hope to get out. Wake up MM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnyguy Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Still arguing about quarterbacks? We have an inferior offensive line, we have no offensive identity, a defense that can not only not stop the run but can't keep an offense from picking up third and longs all day long. A blitzing, high pressure defensive scheme that just can't quite get that pressure all the way to the opposing quarterback. We have safetys that can't make tackles and linebackers who are almost always out of position. If we were losing solely because of the play of the QB I'd understand the debate but this team can lose a game on both sides of the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Your kidding right? You really think Losman would have been as bad as Holcomb? Holcomb does not give this team a chance to win. We do not need a bus driver at QB, we need someone who can do something. What is somewhat disturbing is that when the game was totally lost MM didnt even send Losman in for a spark to the team. Does that even make sense? No it dosent, therefore we are going nowhere for a long time, if ever. When MM finally gets canned we wont have any players left on this team. You either have to adapt or die, right now the team is dying. The only thing that will give us a chance is to put Losman back in and let him make his mistakes now. Holcomb is going to get us nowhere except deeper in the hole with no hope to get out. Wake up MM! 484382[/snapback] If you are willing to concede the season and give JP the keys then I'm fine with that but he doesn't give this team a chance to win right now. He was missing wide open receivers two out of every three passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveRalph Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Holcomb is sad. I hate teams who throw dump passes, and the Bills are the worst culprit in the league. That's great that Holcomb is 20-26, but it doesn' t get them anywhere. All it gets them is 3rd and 3. Anyways, it's clear that this team has much bigger problems than QB. It's too bad they didn't let JP play two home games against two of the worst teams in the league when they gave Willis the ball 30 times in each game. I think the experiment is over. The Bills brass probably doesn't want to play JP on national tv against the defending champs, but I hope he's back in following the bye week so the Holcomb madness can stop. Let's lose with the young guy. Eli Manning yesterday? Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinandjokin Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 If you are willing to concede the season and give JP the keys then I'm fine with that but he doesn't give this team a chance to win right now. He was missing wide open receivers two out of every three passes. 484406[/snapback] This team doesn't give itself the chance to win right now. You are lost if you think this is a playoff team. Play the kid. It won't make a lick of difference. QB is not the problem. Blaming the team's issues on the QB (both JP and KH) is like a 350 lb man saying his shirt makes him look fat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smuvtalker Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I too was one of the many in favor of benching Losman for Holcomb. Those who stated that the play of our offensive line and our sieve-like defense is the real culprit, you have hit the nail squarely on the head. But the bottom line is, what has Kelly Holcomb done to really show that he deserves to start over JP? In my opinion, the only thing he has really done in his three starts that's noteworthy is NOT LOSE GAMES. His numbers are modest, and while he may be completing 70 percent of his passes, he's averaging like 160 yards per game. He absolutely cannot throw an accurate pass beyond 15 or 20 yards. In the last 3 games, how many deep balls has he thrown? maybe 4, and each one was horribly missed. From badly underthrowing Moulds, to badly overthrowing Evans and Reed. This is not a good football team, on either side of the ball. Even if we were to make it into the playoffs, what are the chances of us beating the likes of New England, Indianapolis, Denver, Pittsburgh...slim to none. We need to let JP in there and get his lumps now. Many people think that we should start Holcomb in the New England game next Sunday. I think that this would be a perfect time to get JP in there. Let him get that game experience playing in the national spotlight. Yes, throw him to the wolves, he's going to have to do it eventually, why not let him get a taste now? Every game he sits is one more game next year he'll still need for development. This team is going nowhere in the state we're in. Lets let the kid become a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 This team doesn't give itself the chance to win right now. You are lost if you think this is a playoff team. Play the kid. It won't make a lick of difference. QB is not the problem. Blaming the team's issues on the QB (both JP and KH) is like a 350 lb man saying his shirt makes him look fat. 484418[/snapback] This teams problems go far beyond the QB play, not at any point this year have I thought this was a .500 team let alone a playoff team. I whole heartedly agree to play Losman and see what we got . But he's still not better than Holcomb RIGHT NOW. The one thing I hate about these forums is that tone is never easy read when it comes to the poster. I completely agreed with everything you said but It sounds like you think I didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Bad throws by KH, off the top of my head: missed a wide open Reed on a fly route tossed a pass at Campbell's feet threw high to Moulds causing a drop the freddie miss you mentioned 484183[/snapback] Sshhh...You are not supposed to talk about overthrows/underthrows when the QB is holcomb...That pass is available only when it is JP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 but once again, the problem is not the quarterback on this football team 484205[/snapback] That is the exact point we were trying to talk up after the debacle against the saints....It is not JPs fault....or Holcombs fault.....This OL is terrible and so is the play calling......They just cannot play to the strength of this football team.....How are you getting your WRs/TEs involved in the passing game....Why is Willis not getting enough balls to catch....The ONUS is on the OC and his support staff to figure out a way to move the ball.....They haven't done it in 7 weeks through the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinandjokin Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 This teams problems go far beyond the QB play, not at any point this year have I thought this was a .500 team let alone a playoff team. I whole heartedly agree to play Losman and see what we got . But he's still not better than Holcomb RIGHT NOW. The one thing I hate about these forums is that tone is never easy read when it comes to the poster. I completely agreed with everything you said but It sounds like you think I didn't. 484542[/snapback] I'm with ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Holcomb didn't play as well today as he did his first two starts. Even so, he completed over 70% of his passes, and had 1 TD and 0 INTs. The offense scored 17 points despite a very quiet day by Willis. Had our defense played well, we would have won 17-14 or something. 484236[/snapback] There is a reason for that.....His two starts were at home against two horrible teams....and we almost lost one of them (against Miami).....they just were worse than us..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Here Is one of them...JP, as he played the first four weeks of this season, would have been destroyed today...Holcomb was far from perfect, but I would argue that he and his short passing game were the only offensive success that Bills had today...those same, short passes that JP could not make...and before you go on and on about Holcomb not being able to complete a 15 yard pass, keep in mind, he didn't attempt any today, as CBS kept pointing out...if you love JP, and you think he is the future of this team, be thankful that he is not playing right now. 484274[/snapback] It does not matter if JP was destroyed yesterday or not...at least the kid would have learnt from the loss.....I would rather have the kid be exposed to these beatings than sit on the bench and watch it on another....only to be put in this situation again next year.... Peyton manning I think was one of the most sacked QB in his 3-13 season... He did not ahve the time to throw...but still took the beating.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Still arguing about quarterbacks? We have an inferior offensive line, we have no offensive identity, a defense that can not only not stop the run but can't keep an offense from picking up third and longs all day long. A blitzing, high pressure defensive scheme that just can't quite get that pressure all the way to the opposing quarterback. We have safetys that can't make tackles and linebackers who are almost always out of position. If we were losing solely because of the play of the QB I'd understand the debate but this team can lose a game on both sides of the ball. 484404[/snapback] Agreed...We are not going to be able to change anyone on this OL this seson. So we will have to wait till the off-season to get some decent lineman in... Until than i will let a QB who can use his feet and make some throws (even if inconsistent) get in and wet his feet and get a feel for the game....so that we are better off for the long-term.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 It does not matter if JP was destroyed yesterday or not...at least the kidwould have learnt from the loss.....I would rather have the kid be exposed to these beatings than sit on the bench and watch it on another....only to be put in this situation again next year.... Peyton manning I think was one of the most sacked QB in his 3-13 season... He did not ahve the time to throw...but still took the beating.... 484614[/snapback] "But, JP will never be the quarterback Manning is, because, uh, he's JP Losman." News flash, folks, he's never going to be the QB anybody wants him to be until he gets the chance to prove it. And four games doesn't cut it. Let's take our lumps. I really don't care if this team SOMEHOW ekes into the playoffs with Holcomb by being just slightly better than a division full of chumps, and gets summarily destroyed in the first round. It will be meaningless to me. I know the whole world around here will buy into Bills fever if it somehow miraculously happens, but I want nothing less than a Super Bowl. Time to see if the kid can begin to point us in that direction. Perhaps we lose, hell, perhaps we get better draft position -- ain't the worst thing in the world, I think we have a few needs. All I forsee with Holcomb, especially with this line, is this team treading water (at best) or nose-diving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I'd add taking an 18 yd sack deep in our territory to your list. 484193[/snapback] Yeah, based on what I've seen of his play, that was pretty uncharacteristic of Holcomb. In fact, it was downright Losman-esque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 "But, JP will never be the quarterback Manning is, because, uh, he's JP Losman." News flash, folks, he's never going to be the QB anybody wants him to be until he gets the chance to prove it. And four games doesn't cut it. Let's take our lumps. I really don't care if this team SOMEHOW ekes into the playoffs with Holcomb by being just slightly better than a division full of chumps, and gets summarily destroyed in the first round. It will be meaningless to me. I know the whole world around here will buy into Bills fever if it somehow miraculously happens, but I want nothing less than a Super Bowl. Time to see if the kid can begin to point us in that direction. Perhaps we lose, hell, perhaps we get better draft position -- ain't the worst thing in the world, I think we have a few needs. All I forsee with Holcomb, especially with this line, is this team treading water (at best) or nose-diving. 484629[/snapback] The intention of the comparison was to not compare the players, but compare the situations..... You hit it right though...4 games doesn't cut it....He needs a full season... Introducing KH just caused more division within this team....something that MM could have avoided.....Palmer was pretty hard to watch last year at the beginning of the season...and when the bengals went 2-5 or something like that.....Then he built the right rapport with his line and WRs....and boom they were fighting for a playoff spot before being clobbered by us. Plus we get 9 more games to see if Losman can cut it./..If not then we cut our losses and go back to the FA pool get a mid-level FA, somehting like what carolina did...and build a damn OL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan III Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 In fact, it was downright Losman-esque. 484634[/snapback] I shouted something just like that at the tv yesterday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Brady Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Holcomb is sad. I hate teams who throw dump passes, and the Bills are the worst culprit in the league. That's great that Holcomb is 20-26, but it doesn' t get them anywhere. All it gets them is 3rd and 3. Anyways, it's clear that this team has much bigger problems than QB. It's too bad they didn't let JP play two home games against two of the worst teams in the league when they gave Willis the ball 30 times in each game. I think the experiment is over. The Bills brass probably doesn't want to play JP on national tv against the defending champs, but I hope he's back in following the bye week so the Holcomb madness can stop. Let's lose with the young guy. Eli Manning yesterday? Anyone? 484413[/snapback] I think this is what many posters here were saying 3 weeks ago but we are fools....we will never know what the outcome of 2 winnable home games for JP would have been, but a split is something I could have lived with because that would have been real progress, IMO....But hell what do I know, this team is going to the playoffs with KH and a veteran rec. ...........NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Holcomb is only a marginal improvement over JP. KH still throws INT's, takes dumb sacks, misses his receivers, except he's a veteran, so I guess that makes it all better. One big difference is KH can't throw long or with any zip. His passes float like frisbees. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 The intention of the comparison was to not compare the players, but comparethe situations..... 484654[/snapback] No, I know that. See that I went on to agree with you. I've been citing Manning and Palmer and Manning all along, not as players of equal talent or qualities, but as players in similar situations. Favre too. Hence the quotes. Sorry if it looked like I was rippin' ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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