kota Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 No such thing as a shutdown corner anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachChuckDickerson Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 I agree. I'd rather take the money, and spend it on a pass rushing DE. You put heat on a QB, coupled with Milloy and Vincent playing at the safeties, and you can work with almost any kind of CB's. Ask the Eagles. 412208[/snapback] Ask the Eagles? 3 out of the 4 players in their secondary were probowlers in 2005. They spent 1st and 2nd round picks on DBs in 2004 because they did not want to overpay for aging talent in Vincent and Taylor. Lito Sheppard isn't "just anybody" that they plugged in. Clements is 25 years old. Name 3 guys you would rather pay the bucks to that have his ability at his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 9 times out of 10 that catch never happens if you try to intercept it. 10 times out of 10 that catch never happens if you try to knock it down. 412185[/snapback] Bingo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
envirojeff Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 You don't think Nate's a lock down CB? I'd disagree with that. I'm not sure we should spend that much money either, but he IS either one of the best or possibly THE best at his position... Can't refute that. Quick correction to your post -- if Buffalo puts the transition tag on him, all that gives us is the right to match another team's offer. If we don't match, we don't get anything. TKO was given a transition tag, for example. We'd have to franchise him (average of the top 5 CBs in the league) and hope someone wanted to trade for him or sign him outright (signing outright would give the Bills two first rounders, and that rarely happens). CW 412119[/snapback] Well it's important to remember that this is a contract extension, so allot of posturing is going on. If nothing else we all should know that TD is not the type to dump money on someone. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachChuckDickerson Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 9 times out of 10 that catch never happens if you try to intercept it. 10 times out of 10 that catch never happens if you try to knock it down. 412185[/snapback] Hindsight is 20/20 from the comfort of our own homes. The guy was in the heat of it trying to make a play for his team. So if a Clements misses a pass or drops an interception he isn't considered great? So if Peyton Manning throws a pick and "loses" the game for his team on the final drive, he isn't an elite QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad1 Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 I agree. I'd rather take the money, and spend it on a pass rushing DE. You put heat on a QB, coupled with Milloy and Vincent playing at the safeties, and you can work with almost any kind of CB's. Ask the Eagles. 412208[/snapback] You don't think the Eagles could have used Vincent (or Taylor) in the SB, when Deion Branch was catching balls all over the field? And they had Kearse, Dawkins, and a bunch of cap room. Lot of good it did them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Hindsight is 20/20 from the comfort of our own homes. The guy was in the heat of it trying to make a play for his team. So if a Clements misses a pass or drops an interception he isn't considered great? So if Peyton Manning throws a pick and "loses" the game for his team on the final drive, he isn't an elite QB? 412367[/snapback] Of course not. I think he is an excellent and potentially great player. He is better at his position than just about everyone in the league. I would put him in the top five after the end of last season. But that doesn't mean he didn't make a monumentally foolish and game-losing play, which is the reason (hot-dogging/risk-taking/arrogance) that some people feel prevents him from being considered at the very, very top. That isn't a hindsight is 20/20 play. That is a play every CB in the league should make 100% of the time. That is a play that there is ONLY one play to make and that is to knock the ball down. Everything else is wrong. TRYING for an INT let alone not catching is unbelievably dumb. And if you're the best you simply do not do that. Even if he made an INT and ran it back for a touchdown it wouldnt have been the right play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralVaBills Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Ask the Eagles? 3 out of the 4 players in their secondary were probowlers in 2005. They spent 1st and 2nd round picks on DBs in 2004 because they did not want to overpay for aging talent in Vincent and Taylor. Lito Sheppard isn't "just anybody" that they plugged in. Clements is 25 years old. Name 3 guys you would rather pay the bucks to that have his ability at his age. 412260[/snapback] That's exactly my point. Since they get after the passer.....they can almost plug in any CB's they want. We could easily do the same. Nate Clements is NOT the best CB in the league. While Clements age is a real nice factor, there isn't a CB in the league that carries his team. If you overpay at the CB spot, that's just stupid caponomics. Most teams have so many good WR's now that about the only way to stop the passing game consistently is get to the QB. I'm a defensive coordinator at the high school level. My philosphy on stopping the pass is simple....GET TO THE QB QUICKLY. Thus, 20 games....two years....11 shutouts, and a record of 17-3. We are aggressive, and the players love blitzing a ton. Every time we get conservative, we get picked apart. CB's can easily be hidden if you have a pass rush. And the money Nate Clements wants would land a GREAT pass rusher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB27 Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 I hope they get this done before the season starts. I really believe that he wants to stay in Buffalo and we really need him. A loss like this on D would be hard to overcome. GET R' DONE. Whether or not he is the best CB in the league, who knows, he is a veteran leader on our defense, and his loss would be really felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 ^^^^^ mcbride is right, Jimmy Smith made a helluva play, can't put that one on Nate. PAY HIM, TD!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 How often does a great, dominant pass rusher hit the FA market? Rarely. Kearse is the last one I can think of. The Bills have gotten GREAT value out of Sam, as big a signing as Donahoe has had. That said, Clements is probably the 2nd best player on this defense, behind Spikes. But Champ Bailey $ probably isn't going to come from the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralVaBills Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 You don't think the Eagles could have used Vincent (or Taylor) in the SB, when Deion Branch was catching balls all over the field? And they had Kearse, Dawkins, and a bunch of cap room. Lot of good it did them. 412382[/snapback] No, I don't think they could have used Vincent or Taylor at all. Neither one of them are regarded as great CB's anymore. Hell, we had Nate Clements, and in case you missed it....the Patriots threw all over us, in our house, with Nate back there. And if you use the excuse that they went away from Nate....then great......we need more CB's, and if you pay Clements what he wants, our other CB's ar going to get even worse, because we won't be able to afford anything but crap. Pass Rush my friend....I'll take it any day. Both sides of the line in football is where you win games. Anyone who has ever coached on the field knows that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralVaBills Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 How often does a great, dominant pass rusher hit the FA market? Rarely. Kearse is the last one I can think of. The Bills have gotten GREAT value out of Sam, as big a signing as Donahoe has had. That said, Clements is probably the 2nd best player on this defense, behind Spikes. But Champ Bailey $ probably isn't going to come from the Bills. 412394[/snapback] How did Champ Bailey getting all that money help Denver against Indy last year? Gimmie a pass rusher anyday. Pouring HUGE money into a CB spot is the dumbest thing a GM can do. Doesn't mean I don't think Nate isn't the 2nd best player on our D either. I think he's a great player, just not where a ton of cap dollars should be spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 I agree with you about the pass rush, but in my opinion you have to go after that in the 1st round this year, that's how you avoid overpaying a Ted Washington type who is on the downside of his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad1 Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 No, I don't think they could have used Vincent or Taylor at all. Neither one of them are regarded as great CB's anymore. Hell, we had Nate Clements, and in case you missed it....the Patriots threw all over us, in our house, with Nate back there. And if you use the excuse that they went away from Nate....then great......we need more CB's, and if you pay Clements what he wants, our other CB's ar going to get even worse, because we won't be able to afford anything but crap. Pass Rush my friend....I'll take it any day. Both sides of the line in football is where you win games. Anyone who has ever coached on the field knows that. 412395[/snapback] Well then, you're wrong. Vincent or Taylor covering the slot, playing nickel, would have made a huge difference in that game, and the Eagles could have afforded it. Just like they could have afforded Trotter the year before, when the Panthers ran all over them in the NFC Championship game. The Eagles have proven to be penny-wise and pound-foolish the last few years. And Vincent was injured in the Pats game, against us, in our house. They threw against McGee, Baker, and Wire who are the caliber of young DB syou're advocating we replace Clemments with. And of course pass rush is important. Important enough for you to realize that the Bills finished with the 2nd most sacks in the league last season. Losing Clements would hurt the Bills much more than gaining a top DE would help them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralVaBills Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 I agree with you about the pass rush, but in my opinion you have to go after that in the 1st round this year, that's how you avoid overpaying a Ted Washington type who is on the downside of his career. 412397[/snapback] I can see that. However, one is to assume that if you don't pay Nate Clements.....and you decide to spend somewhere else to compensate.....I would pay an established DE who gets after the QB, so that you know what you are getting. It's all relative though.....maybe there aren't any pass rushers coming available on the market....and other factors....who knows. All I know, if you look back......and not too far ago......I would take Bruce Smith, Reggie White, or any of the guys who rushed the passer over Deion Sanders, Darrell Green or any of those guys. DE's get after the QB every play. CB's can't hold on forever on coverages, and you can simply throw at the other ONE OR TWO, every play. Seems a no brainer to get a pass rusher instead of Nate to me. BUT if we do sign Nate......that's not a bad thing either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralVaBills Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Well then, you're wrong. Vincent or Taylor covering the slot, playing nickel, would have made a huge difference in that game, and the Eagles could have afforded it. Just like they could have afforded Trotter the year before, when the Panthers ran all over them in the NFC Championship game. The Eagles have proven to be penny-wise and pound-foolish the last few years. And Vincent was injured in the Pats game, against us, in our house. They threw against McGee, Baker, and Wire who are the caliber of young DB syou're advocating we replace Clemments with. And of course pass rush is important. Important enough for you to realize that the Bills finished with the 2nd most sacks in the league last season. Losing Clements would hurt the Bills much more than gaining a top DE would help them. 412403[/snapback] And how the hell do you think the Eagles could have paid Troy Vincent to be a nickel corner? And do you really think Troy Vincent would have settled for nickel money to stay with the Eagles and given up his starting job to younger guys, when they couldn't work out a deal in the first place? Come on man, the only way Troy Vincent stays with the Eagles, is if he gets a CB spot locked down, and he gets starter money. He wasn't that good anymore. Thus, he's at safety for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralVaBills Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Well then, you're wrong. Vincent or Taylor covering the slot, playing nickel, would have made a huge difference in that game, and the Eagles could have afforded it. Just like they could have afforded Trotter the year before, when the Panthers ran all over them in the NFC Championship game. The Eagles have proven to be penny-wise and pound-foolish the last few years. And Vincent was injured in the Pats game, against us, in our house. They threw against McGee, Baker, and Wire who are the caliber of young DB syou're advocating we replace Clemments with. And of course pass rush is important. Important enough for you to realize that the Bills finished with the 2nd most sacks in the league last season. Losing Clements would hurt the Bills much more than gaining a top DE would help them. 412403[/snapback] Oh, and NO......you must understand philosphy....just as I said..... I REPLACE CLEMENTS WITH A DE, not a CB. I might draft a CB high or see who develops, or pick up mid grade salary CB's. AS LONG AS A dominant DE is the replacement for Clements. If that's the TD's plan, then hell no, you can't sit back there with the scruff we have as backups now. My main philosophy on stopping the pass, is rushing the passer, not sitting back and trying to blanket WR's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad1 Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 And how the hell do you think the Eagles could have paid Troy Vincent to be a nickel corner? And do you really think Troy Vincent would have settled for nickel money to stay with the Eagles and given up his starting job to younger guys, when they couldn't work out a deal in the first place? Come on man, the only way Troy Vincent stays with the Eagles, is if he gets a CB spot locked down, and he gets starter money. He wasn't that good anymore. Thus, he's at safety for us. 412413[/snapback] The Eagles had the cap space to sign Vincent to the same deal he got with the Bills, and they could have let the starter/nickel competition happen in training camp. So yes, I believe it was possible for Vincent to remain with the Eagles, if the Eagles wanted him. They obviously didn't believe they needed him, and, as a result, got toasted by a slot receiver in the SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Amen. the guy is a shut down corner but that doesn't mean recievers aren't going to make some catches on him. That stupid catch people keep referring to was a career catch made by a solid reciever. 9 times out of 10 that catch never happens. Nate was a hair away from picking off that ball. Nate is 25 years old, just entering his prime. 412180[/snapback] he was a hair away from picking it off...but he could have easily batted it down and then it would have been game over...plain and simple he screwed up, and his folly ended up costing us the game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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