Where does Khalil Shakir rank in terms of NFL WRs?

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, RoscoeParrish said:

 

I’m just not sure you are grasping what we are saying.

 

Yes, if you increase a players targets, that would increase their production. That reigns true for every single WR.

 

But the situation equation flips both ways. And I would argue the 2024 team may have been one of the best situations in the NFL for Khalil Shakir. So in a worse situation, of which there are MANY, for MANY reasons, he may be a 500-600 yard guy.

 

There’s a reason him and his agent took Darnell Mooney this offseason and it’s not because he’s in a different class of receiver.

Do you think they lost the Super Bowl after going 18-0 because of Randy Moss?

All good, this is all subjective.  But I think you are definitely undervaluing just how good he is at what he does.  But it will be based on the role he has (like many players).  And if a team thinks or believes he is good enough to be one of their higher target players like the Bills do, he will get the targets to produce.  
 

If he ends up in on a team like Cincy, he isn’t getting 120-130 targets with Chase and Higgins there.  But he goes to a team where he is one of there main targets like he is in Buffalo, he will produce like such.  
 

So again, it depends on what team is drafting and how they see him in their offense.  And once you get into the 20’s I think a lot of the other WRs blend together and don’t stand out where Shakir stands out at the slot position.  Like I said there a bunch of TEs that would go ahead of a lot those WR’s too.  But not every team makes the same choices.  
 

So this was poised as a draft - those factors will play into the draft decisions as teams run various types of offenses and cover different traits.  And in a real draft, there are teams and GMs who are going to covet the overall skill set, intangibles, etc that he brings along with his overall talent and then grab another outside guy later as it’s pretty deep in the middle of the pack area of those rounds at outside WR.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

Edited July 17 by Alphadawg7

[DrDawkinstein]

51 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well I can tell you first hand from contacts of mine he is more highly regarded and coveted in NFL circles than you probably think.  

 

We get it. You fist bumped Josh, and he loves Shakir. But that doesnt count as "insider info"  

[BullBuchanan]

14 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

You said they learned their lesson because Randy doesn’t have a ring and Edelman has 3. 

 

As if the 2007 Patriots wasn’t an all time offense and an all-time team, and the 2018 Patriots wasn’t one of the worst Super Bowl winners ever.

 

So I asked the obvious question. Yes, situation matters. No, the Patriots didn’t lose the 2007 Super Bowl after going undefeated because their wide receivers were just too good. There was no lesson to learn.

The obvious question that had an obvious answer is just you creating a strawman. Now you're acting like you defeated something.

The Patriots did in fact learn something, because after they moved on from Moss, their offensive philosophy changed dramatically, and they became unstoppable.

Watch the games.  Brady keeps looking for that deep home run ball throughout the Giants game and they never get into a rhythm. Against the Seahawks, it's almost all horizontal attacks, the 2-3 yard passes that turn into chain movers. They were far more efficient play to play even against a much more vaunted defense. NE made the game boring, just like they did in Brady's early years and they piled up rings with that strategy. KC has been using that same approach to fill their hardware cabinet.
 

 

 

Edited July 17 by BullBuchanan

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

We get it. You fist bumped Josh, and he loves Shakir. But that doesnt count as "insider info"  

 

Bahahaha well played 

[RoscoeParrish]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But he goes to a team where he is one of there main targets like he is in Buffalo, he will produce like such.  

He’s not “one of the main targets” in Buffalo.

 

He is THE main target.

 

He got 25% of the teams’ targets. Led the team by a significant margin, despite missing time, with a very special QB

 

If the 25th WR in yards last year, DK Metcalf, woke up on this team or ANY TEAM with Shakir tomorrow, do we think Shakir’s target share goes up or down? Do we think Shakir’s yards go up or down?

 

The answer to me is frankly obvious. 
 

I personally believe Shakir is maxed out. If Keon Coleman becomes the WR1 X that we all want him too, Shakir’s numbers will get worse. 

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

I think you have to compare him to other slots

Yea

 Guys have roles to play based on their skill sets. Slot guys are always going to rate under the equally talented outside guy.

 As Kirby tries to remove context , I am not sure I can 🙂

Shakir is my Favorite Bills receiver still , even if we get Palmer or Moore to start scoring on deep plays.

He's my Fred Jackson of the current Bills regime.

[RoscoeParrish]

8 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

The obvious question that had an obvious answer is just you creating a strawman. Now you're acting like you defeated something.

The Patriots did in fact learn something, because after they moved on from Moss, their offensive philosophy changed dramatically, and they became unstoppable.

Watch the games.  Brady keeps looking for that deep home run ball throughout the Giants game and they never get into a rhythm. Against the Seahawks, it's almost all horizontal attacks, the 2-3 yard passes that turn into chain movers. They were far more efficient play to play even against a much more vaunted defense. NE made the game boring, just like they did in Brady's early years and they piled up rings with that strategy. KC has been using that same approach to fill their hardware cabinet.
 

 

 

Randy departed from the Pats after 2009. They didn’t win a Super Bowl until half a decade later. They became unstoppable after losing Moss?
 

They lost the Super Bowl in 2011 against the same team with elite slot guy Wes Welker putting up elite slot numbers and a completely different offense.

I think you tried too hard to prove something with the “they learned their lesson with Randy Moss” take. 

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, RoscoeParrish said:

Randy departed from the Pats after 2009. They didn’t win a Super Bowl until half a decade later. They became unstoppable after losing Moss?
 

They lost the Super Bowl in 2011 against the same team with elite slot guy Wes Welker putting up elite slot numbers and a completely different offense.

I think you tried too hard to prove something with the “they learned their lesson with Randy Moss” take. 

Again, you're just making things up now trying desperately to be correct about something. What I wrote wasn't that verbose. Just use the real things I said to try to argue instead of making things up.

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, RoscoeParrish said:

He’s not “one of the main targets” in Buffalo.

 

He is THE main target.

 

He got 25% of the teams’ targets. Led the team by a significant margin, despite missing time, with a very special QB

 

If the 25th WR in yards last year, DK Metcalf, woke up on this team or ANY TEAM with Shakir tomorrow, do we think Shakir’s target share goes up or down? Do we think Shakir’s yards go up or down?

 

The answer to me is frankly obvious. 
 

I personally believe Shakir is maxed out. If Keon Coleman becomes the WR1 X that we all want him too, Shakir’s numbers will get worse. 

 

Fair points, but I think the difference in opinions here is I don't think Shakir got those targets by default of no one else being here, I think he got those targets because his ability warrants it.  

 

With Diggs, Davis, and our first round pick that year in Kincaid on the roster, it was Shakir who led the Bills in receiving under Brady once he took over the offense.  Shakir has the role and contract he has because they see him as deserving of those targets and delivering when called upon over and over again.  This isn't a JAG who is putting up production because there is no one else and just getting production by volume and default, he is a major part of the offense by choice and design.  To assume no other teams would value him in a similar way we do is just not something I can buy into.  

 

Shakir has the role he has because he is very good at what he does.  I suggest go watch his 2023 and 2024 highlights again - all players have a highlight real, but few have the kind of plays he makes and the frequency he makes them.  

 

So I get where you are coming from, and not saying you are wrong or not, but you and I just view his value, abilities, etc differently and I think there are multiple coaches and GM's who will see him in a similar light personally.

 

Again, all subjective - just my 2 cents  

[RoscoeParrish]

1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said:

Again, you're just making things up now trying desperately to be correct about something. What I wrote wasn't that verbose. Just use the real things I said to try to argue instead of making things up.

Desperate?

 

You said they learned a lesson with Moss. I don’t think that’s correct.

 

You said they become unstoppable after switching to a slot offense. That’s wrong too. They went to another Super Bowl and lost with an elite slot offense in 2011. They also didn’t make another SB after that until 2014.

 

Yes, there are obvious benefits and drawbacks to being a deep ball high flying offense vs a ball control, chain moving offense. All that being said, the 2007 Patriots were still an all time great team with an all time great offense because, in large part, of Randy Moss.

 

I stand by what I said and I didn’t make anything up. I’d like you to point out examples of things you think I did make up because that’s a pretty unproductive accusation in a discussion.

[3rdand12]

21 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

He’s not “one of the main targets” in Buffalo.

 

He is THE main target.

 

He got 25% of the teams’ targets. Led the team by a significant margin, despite missing time, with a very special QB

 

If the 25th WR in yards last year, DK Metcalf, woke up on this team or ANY TEAM with Shakir tomorrow, do we think Shakir’s target share goes up or down? Do we think Shakir’s yards go up or down?

 

The answer to me is frankly obvious. 
 

I personally believe Shakir is maxed out. If Keon Coleman becomes the WR1 X that we all want him too, Shakir’s numbers will get worse. 

I felt it could go the other way. Bring an X receiver to clear out a safety or two ( Not Keon btw but some respected speed ) and his targets might/should go down but his yards and YAC might well go up. That would be a good thing.

 Less targets but better targets , not worse 

[BullBuchanan]

14 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

Desperate?

 

You said they learned a lesson with Moss. I don’t think that’s correct.

 

You said they become unstoppable after switching to a slot offense. That’s wrong too. They went to another Super Bowl and lost with an elite slot offense in 2011. They also didn’t make another SB after that until 2014.

 

Yes, there are obvious benefits and drawbacks to being a deep ball high flying offense vs a ball control, chain moving offense. All that being said, the 2007 Patriots were still an all time great team with an all time great offense because, in large part, of Randy Moss.

 

I stand by what I said and I didn’t make anything up. I’d like you to point out examples of things you think I did make up because that’s a pretty unproductive accusation in a discussion.

What is a "slot offense"?

My argument was quite simple and direct. For the New England Patriots, Julian Edelman was a more valuable player than Randy Moss despite Moss being the far more traditionally talented and gifted receiver. They realized that controlling the ball through a horizontal game, like they did in the early years with Branch, Givens, Patten was a more reliable way to win than by having a downfield attack. After they dumped Moss, they made no attempts to replace him. Instead they targeted guys like Danny Amendola and Chris Hogan, and they stacked trophies.

Just watch the games, man. It's all on the tape.

Edited July 17 by BullBuchanan

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

What is a "slot offense"?

My argument was quite simple and direct. For the New England Patriots, Julian Edelman was a more valuable player than Randy Moss despite Moss being the far more traditionally talented and gifted receiver. They realized that controlling the ball througha  horizontal game, like they did in the early years with Branch, Givens, Patten was a more reliable way to win than by having a downfield attack. After they dumped Moss, they made no attempts to replace him. Instead they targeted guys like Danny Amendola and Chris Hogan, and they starting stacking trophies.

They had arguably the greatest offense of all time with Moss that year.  If a few things happen differently in one game they’re considered the greatest team in sports history. I’m sure they would have been just fine with a star WR long term if they went that route. Brady didn’t need it, that is what they proved. Ball was always going to an open player at light speed. They didn’t need a guy like Moss to make it work, but it would have been just fine either way. That one year it produced results like we have never seen before or since. 

Edited July 18 by Mikie2times

[RoscoeParrish]

18 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

What is a "slot offense"?

My argument was quite simple and direct. For the New England Patriots, Julian Edelman was a more valuable player than Randy Moss despite Moss being the far more traditionally talented and gifted receiver. They realized that controlling the ball through a horizontal game, like they did in the early years with Branch, Givens, Patten was a more reliable way to win than by having a downfield attack. After they dumped Moss, they made no attempts to replace him. Instead they targeted guys like Danny Amendola and Chris Hogan, and they stacked trophies.

Just watch the games, man. It's all on the tape.

The Pats made plenty of attempts to draft or acquire boundary WRs at cheap prices, just like Moss (who they got for a song if I remember correctly)

 

They brought in Chad Johnson in 2011. 

 

They signed Reggie Wayne in 2015.

 

They drafted lots. Kenbrell Thompkins. Malcolm Mitchell. Aaron Dobson.

 

The real difference was that all those guys stunk in those spots (Reggie retired) and their slot guys performed at a high level.

 

Like I said earlier, I think you are mixing up cause and effect. Do these teams, the Pats post-Moss, the Chiefs post-Tyreek and the Bills post-Diggs build their teams around their slots or TEs because their slots/TEs are just that good, or because their boundary options stink, relatively speaking? Or at the very least, a combination of both?
 

Furthermore, Chris Hogan was a boundary WR in NE. Just because he was white didn’t make him a slot guy. And he set a WR record in the playoffs for the Pats if I recall.

 

I watched as many of the games as I could. 

Edited July 17 by RoscoeParrish

[Chicken Boo]

He's very valuable to this team, but his overall rank is down there a bit. 

 

Too far to count. 

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

One could argue they learned their lesson from the Randy Moss experiment. Edelman has 3 rings, Moss has zero. The Pats were at their best when they ran boring efficient offenses with dependable player. The Chiefs philosophy has been the same after Mahomes first couple years.

 

The highest scoring offense in NFL History and an 18-0 season?  

 

If Brady had a bit more arm, Moss was off to the races on the final drive for the game winning TD.  

Edited July 17 by Chicken Boo

[BullBuchanan]

48 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

The Pats made plenty of attempts to draft or acquire boundary WRs at cheap prices, just like Moss (who they got for a song if I remember correctly)

 

They brought in Chad Johnson in 2011. 

 

They signed Reggie Wayne in 2015.

 

They drafted lots. Kenbrell Thompkins. Malcolm Mitchell. Aaron Dobson.

 

The real difference was that all those guys stunk in those spots (Reggie retired) and their slot guys performed at a high level.

 

Like I said earlier, I think you are mixing up cause and effect. Do these teams, the Pats post-Moss, the Chiefs post-Tyreek and the Bills post-Diggs build their teams around their slots or TEs because their slots/TEs are just that good, or because their boundary options stink, relatively speaking? Or at the very least, a combination of both?
 

Furthermore, Chris Hogan was a boundary WR in NE. Just because he was white didn’t make him a slot guy. And he set a WR record in the playoffs for the Pats if I recall.

 

I watched as many of the games as I could. 

Why do you keep trying to make this whole boundary vs slot receiver argument? What are you even talking about? It has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I give up dude. You're right about whatever point it is you're trying to make.

38 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

The highest scoring offense in NFL History and an 18-0 season?  

 

If Brady had a bit more arm, Moss was off to the races on the final drive for the game winning TD.  

That was the story all game. They were off by a foot here or there over and over again all game. He didn't even hit the timing routes because that wasn't their bread and butter in that scheme. Fast forward to 2014 and everything was timing. The ball was out of Brady's hands before the D line even made it to the LoS.

Edited July 17 by BullBuchanan

[wettlaufer]

Ranking primarily against slot receivers:

 

Slot‑Receiver: Major Statistical Rankings for Khalil Shakir (2024)

1. Separation & “Wide-Open” Targets

Shakir ranked 2nd in the NFL among all receivers in percentage of targets where he was “wide open” (two or more steps of separation), at about 71.3% of his targets while playing slot. That tied for third‑most “wide open” targets (85) league‑wide 

 

2. Catches / Receiving Yards / Touchdowns

76 receptions, 821 receiving yards, and 4 receiving touchdowns on 100 total targets (or 115 slot‑based target volume in some PFF analyses) .

 

Among slot receivers, he likely ranked in the top tier for receptions and yards, though exact slot-only peer-perfect positional rankings beyond PFF context aren't fully public.

 

3. Yards After Catch (YAC)

Among all wide receivers in 2024, he ranked top three in yards after contact, missed tackles forced (25), and YAC per reception (≈7.7 yds). He also ranked 3rd in YAC per reception per another source (≈7.9 yds) among all WRs 

 

As a pure slot receiver, he was leading the position in these categories.

 

4. Catch Rate / Efficiency

Shakir posted an NFL-best catch rate (among WRs with ≥40 targets) of ~93.3% in 2024, and 86.7% in 2023. These were all-time highs dating back to when targets were first tracked in 1992 

 

Among slot receivers, that catch percentage likely placed him #1 by a wide margin.

 

5. Overall PFF Slot Grade

Earned a PFF slot receiving grade of roughly 84.0, based on targets within ~9 yards of the line of scrimmage. That places him among the top three slot receivers nationally for the year 

PFF

 

6. Screens

Caught 29 of 31 screen targets for 189 yards, with two touchdowns, 8 first downs, and an 83.5 PFF grade, making him 4th in receiving yards on screens among all receivers, and top among slot receivers 

.

 

Shakir’s Rank (Slot WRs)

Wide‑open target %. / total targets ~2nd (≈71.3%)

Catches / Receiving Yards Top‑3

Receiving Touchdowns High but lower relative (4 TDs)

Yards After Catch / Missed Tackles Top‑3 (leading slot WRs)

Catch Rate #1 among slot WRs (≈93%)

PFF slot receiving grade Top‑3 nationally

Screen receiving yards & effectiveness Top‑1 among slot receivers

 

Elite separation and “wide-open” opportunity rates.

 

Exceptional catch efficiency, topping all WRs at his usage volume.

 

Massive production after the catch, forcing missed tackles and generating big plays.

 

Outstanding grade from PFF as a slot receiver, consistent with leading the position.

[wettlaufer]

4 minutes ago, wettlaufer said:

 

Elite separation and “wide-open” opportunity rates.

 

Exceptional catch efficiency, topping all WRs at his usage volume.

 

Massive production after the catch, forcing missed tackles and generating big plays.

 

Outstanding grade from PFF as a slot receiver, consistent with leading the position.

In other words, he IS our elite receiver, but on the inside primarily. These are eye-popping stats. Moore, Palmer, and Samuel can create space for Skakir, the TEs, and RBs to do their thing.

[Evansfan322]

God the offseason is long