For the critics of Gitmo

[KRC]

I keep hearing the statement:

 

"The U.S. needs to be better than the rest of the countries, wrt treatment of detainees and with interrogation techniques."

 

This impolies that we are currently not treating detainees better than the rest. While this statement makes a good soundbyte for the Hot Pockets® crowd, there is no real information backing this up. Even with our faults and media/politically generated hysteria over information which has been proven to be false, are we still better than the rest?

 

For those who feel we are not the best, let's start tossing out real information. I challenge you to find how other countries treat their detainees and interrogate prisoners, and compare it to the U.S. Let's see where we are worse. That way, the above statement will actually have meaning. Are the U.S. troops really similar to Nazi's as alleged by Dick Durbin? Are the U.S. troops running a Soviet-style gulag as alleged by Amnesty International?

 

Without real data to analyze the situation, the above statement is meaningless. If you can make the above statement, then you obviously have enough information to prove this statement true. I have seen this posted many times on this board, so I know that those posters will be the first to provide the information to back it up.

[VABills]

Someone hit a nerve this morning Ken?

[KRC]

Someone hit a nerve this morning Ken?

363037[/snapback]

 

Nope. Just wanted to get real information (yeah, I know I am in the wrong place for that). If we are not the best, prove it. How are we not the best?

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I keep hearing the statement:

 

"The U.S. needs to be better than the rest of the countries, wrt treatment of detainees and with interrogation techniques."

 

This impolies that we are currently not treating detainees better than the rest. While this statement makes a good soundbyte for the Hot Pockets® crowd, there is no real information backing this up. Even with our faults and media/politically generated hysteria over information which has been proven to be false, are we still better than the rest?

 

For those who feel we are not the best, let's start tossing out real information. I challenge you to find how other countries treat their detainees and interrogate prisoners, and compare it to the U.S. Let's see where we are worse. That way, the above statement will actually have meaning. Are the U.S. troops really similar to Nazi's as alleged by Dick Durbin? Are the U.S. troops running a Soviet-style gulag as alleged by Amnesty International?

 

Without real data to analyze the situation, the above statement is meaningless. If you can make the above statement, then you obviously have enough information to prove this statement true. I have seen this posted many times on this board, so I know that those posters will be the first to provide the information to back it up.

363033[/snapback]

 

Durbin's statements were to the effect that the interrogation techniques at Gitmo sounded like something out of the Gulags or concentration camps. Superficially...I'm inclined to agree with him, as being forced to stand for long hours, long night-time interrogations, and generally breaking down someone's identity by controlling every aspect of their movements through the day as common to Gitmo and the Soviet and Nazi prison systems.

 

However - and here's the points where Durbin has his head firmly up his ass - the Gulags and concentration camp systems went FAR beyond just that, including organized and institutionalized physical torture and summary execution...something of which I have yet to see any stories of emerging from Gitmo. Second, the techniques he complains about at Gitmo exist in virtually every prison system in the world...fostering physical and psychological exhaustion in order to break a person down is called interrogation, and I'm sure Durbin would be hard-pressed to find a country where such techniques are even remotely as benign as he'd like to pretend they should be. Third...the Gulags and concentration camps contained anyone who had the teremity to speak out against their respective governments...if Gitmo were truly like those examples, Durbin's ass would be on a secret jet to Cuba right now. The simple fact that he can make that BS comparison in an open forum demonstrates just how much of a BS comparison it is.

[bobblehead]

IMO, the problem is not with the media's fixation on this, but rather the direction they are taking. Focusing on so called "torture" is pointless, and rather insulting.

 

Instead, why is the media not asking the right questions here, like.. are we getting anything of substance out of these prisoners with the setup we have? Is holding them at Gitmo in the manner that we are actually producing results that can help us? Should I just be happy that these people are locked up or should I be getting more out of this?

 

Get off this "torture" angle and find out if this current detention setup is actually working?

[Kelly the Dog]

I keep hearing the statement:

 

"The U.S. needs to be better than the rest of the countries, wrt treatment of detainees and with interrogation techniques."

 

This impolies that we are currently not treating detainees better than the rest.

363033[/snapback]

No, it doesn't imply that. It implies that we have based our system on treating everyone fairly, not torturing, complying with Geneva Convention, etc., in prisons. When we go against our own principles and standards, the defense of that is "Look at what those savages do". And then the response to THAT is, "we have to be better than them." Meaning, it doesn't matter one bit what anyone else does, we are above that and we have to practice what we preach.

 

Granted, not all of those things apply to Gitmo. Granted, we do sometimes tortue. Granted, everyone is likely way worse than us. But I think your thesis statement was wrong. When people say we have to be better than them, it means we have to do good, always good, because that is what we (allegedly) do and what we stand for and what we preach. And if someone else does stuff to us under similar circumstanaces, we cannot retaliate accordingly with how we treat detainees, we have to stay with what we are supposed to do, i.e., "be better than them".

[Johnny Coli]

I don’t think these prisoners in Gitmo are being treated unfairly. My problem is that there is a Gitmo at all, when we could have just as easily held them overseas in less high-profile “accommodations”. Why establish and build a prison, tell everyone we are doing it, tell everyone that the GC doesn’t apply, tell everyone that American-style due process doesn’t apply, give it a nice easy name (Gitmo? Isn’t that a Pixar character?) then give tours to the media. What the hell did they expect would happen? Why wouldn’t they expect the rest of the world to point fingers and make stuff up? It’s blinding arrogance.

 

To fully answer your question, it’s not that we don’t treat prisoners better, we most surely do. Gitmo and the “screw you” attitude of this administration gives the appearance that we don’t. They lost the PR war quite a while back. But I’m sure many will reply “Who cares” anyway, and they would probably be right in the short term.

[RkFast]

I don’t think these prisoners in Gitmo are being treated unfairly.  My problem is that there is a Gitmo at all, when we could have just as easily held them overseas in less high-profile “accommodations”.  Why establish and build a prison, tell everyone we are doing it, tell everyone that the GC doesn’t apply, tell everyone that American-style due process doesn’t apply, give it a nice easy name (Gitmo?  Isn’t that a Pixar character?) then give tours to the media.  What the hell did they expect would happen?  Why wouldn’t they expect the rest of the world to point fingers and make stuff up?  It’s blinding arrogance.

 

To fully answer your question, it’s not that we don’t treat prisoners better, we most surely do.  Gitmo and the “screw you” attitude of this administration gives the appearance that we don’t.  They lost the PR war quite a while back.  But I’m sure many will reply “Who cares” anyway, and they would probably be right in the short term.

363087[/snapback]

 

The kid's got a point................

[Ghost of BiB]

Can't wait for Gitmo II.

[Alaska Darin]

Can't wait for Gitmo II.

363231[/snapback]

Brought to you by Halliburton!

[Ghost of BiB]

Brought to you by Halliburton!

363250[/snapback]

 

My Buds at KBR.

[EC-Bills]

Can't wait for Gitmo II.

363231[/snapback]

 

We need a catchy subtitle for it though, ala Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn.

[RkFast]

MMMMMMM.......RED MEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ghost of BiB]

MMMMMMM.......RED MEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

363308[/snapback]

 

That's my girl.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

That's my girl. 

363335[/snapback]

 

Great article.

 

let's hear the whiners.

[IDBillzFan]

Can't wait for Gitmo II.

363231[/snapback]

I've already gotten my Burger King Gitmo II Kids Lunch. It comes in a box shaped like a prison, and inside is a real terrorist figurine, a tiny black pillow cover to put over their heads, a battery, some wires and nipple clamps. I can also opt to have fruit instead of french fries, and that just makes the whole thing a very wholesome experience.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I've already gotten my Burger King Gitmo II Kids Lunch. It comes in a box shaped like a prison, and inside is a real terrorist figurine, a tiny black pillow cover to put over their heads, a battery, some wires and nipple clamps. I can also opt to have fruit instead of french fries, and that just makes the whole thing a very wholesome experience.

363363[/snapback]

 

You f*cker....you owe me a keyboard....

[Alaska Darin]

I've already gotten my Burger King Gitmo II Kids Lunch. It comes in a box shaped like a prison, and inside is a real terrorist figurine, a tiny black pillow cover to put over their heads, a battery, some wires and nipple clamps. I can also opt to have fruit instead of french fries, and that just makes the whole thing a very wholesome experience.

363363[/snapback]

OMFG, Marketing IDEA!

[OnTheRocks]

i'm a little confused by the thread title.

 

are there critics of Gitmo?

 

 

[VABills]

OMFG, Marketing IDEA!

363399[/snapback]

I agree. I already sent the idea to a friend at PTO. He said he will lock down the idea in my name and I'll have a patent by Friday.

[Johnny Coli]

I've already gotten my Burger King Gitmo II Kids Lunch. It comes in a box shaped like a prison, and inside is a real terrorist figurine, a tiny black pillow cover to put over their heads, a battery, some wires and nipple clamps. I can also opt to have fruit instead of french fries, and that just makes the whole thing a very wholesome experience.

363363[/snapback]

Classic. Super size me.

[Kelly the Dog]

I've already gotten my Burger King Gitmo II Kids Lunch. It comes in a box shaped like a prison, and inside is a real terrorist figurine, a tiny black pillow cover to put over their heads, a battery, some wires and nipple clamps. I can also opt to have fruit instead of french fries, and that just makes the whole thing a very wholesome experience.

363363[/snapback]

Nice one, LA.

[Reuben Gant]

I've already gotten my Burger King Gitmo II Kids Lunch. It comes in a box shaped like a prison, and inside is a real terrorist figurine, a tiny black pillow cover to put over their heads, a battery, some wires and nipple clamps. I can also opt to have fruit instead of french fries, and that just makes the whole thing a very wholesome experience.

363363[/snapback]

Screw scrupples. There is money to be made here. I think there should be a reality TV tie-in, called "Gettin' outta Gitmo," it will be televised to the world, the best confessions will get an uncoditional release determined by worldwide vote.

[VABills]

Screw scrupples. There is money to be made here. I think there should be a reality TV tie-in, called "Gettin' outta Gitmo," it will be televised to the world, the best confessions will get an uncoditional release determined by worldwide vote.

363570[/snapback]

Sorry but I already have US Patent Office Rights. I'll sell them for 20 million.

 

Nice to have friends in other agencies.

[EC-Bills]

Sorry but I already have Us Patent Office Rights.  I'll sell them for 20 million. 

 

Nice to have friends in other agencies. 

363589[/snapback]

 

You're an evil man VA!

[VABills]

You're an evil man VA! 

363598[/snapback]

No just good.

 

I will of course tithe 10% to the Church.

[EC-Bills]

No just good. 

 

I will of course tithe 10% to the Church. 

363601[/snapback]

 

[Terry Tate]

Granted, we do sometimes tortue.

Source?

[boomerjamhead]

Granted, we do sometimes tortue.

363069[/snapback]

 

The only people who get tortured regularly are Bills fans.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

I give the prisoners credit for not talking. I sometimes wonder how I would hold up to torture if "the enemy" was trying to get info out of me. I don't think I would last very long to be honest. All they would have to do is threaten harm to my genitals and I would sing.

 

ME: F U scumbag, I'm not telling you a thing.

 

ENEMY: If you do not talk, we will insert destructive phrase here your balls.

 

ME: What do you need to know?

[erynthered]

I give the prisoners credit for not talking. I sometimes wonder how I would hold up to torture if "the enemy" was trying to get info out of me. I don't think I would last very long to be honest. All they would have to do is threaten harm to my genitals and I would sing.

 

ME: F U scumbag, I'm not telling you a thing.

 

ENEMY: If you do not talk, we will  insert destructive phrase here your balls.

 

ME: What do you need to know?

363707[/snapback]

 

 

You sure you're not a fish fan? kitty..........

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Source?

363657[/snapback]

 

Ever read any of beausox's posts?

[Lori]

That's my girl. 

363335[/snapback]

"Martinez was borrowing a point from Sen. Joe Biden — which is always a dangerous gambit because you never know who said it originally."

 

When Biden talks about running for Prez in 2008, does he honestly think we've forgotten about his last try? (waitaminute... "honestly" might not fit with this subject...)

[ExiledInIllinois]

My Buds at KBR.

363257[/snapback]

 

You mean Kill 'em Burn 'em and Run, right?

 

Let's remember, when we do our historical multiplication tables, that everything happening now began somewhere, some time. Take the construction and engineering company Kellogg, Brown & Root, now serving (and feeding) our troops in Iraq in so many overpriced ways. It was founded as Brown & Root in Texas in 1919; sponsored the political career of, and was then sponsored in its search for government contracts by Senator Lyndon Baines Johnson; after being swallowed up by Halliburton, a burgeoning oil-services firm, in 1962, it followed vice president, then president LBJ into Vietnam where it was deeply involved in constructing "infrastructure" - bases and the like - for the U.S. military. As Jane Mayer reminds us in her recent New Yorker article on Halliburton and its former CEO, our present vice president, in those rebellious and sardonic days Brown & Root was known to many American soldiers by the familiar nickname, "Burn and Loot."

 

And so it goes, as Kurt Vonnegut might say. And so it continues to go, as KBR, still part of Halliburton, supports the American effort in Iraq to the tune of multi-billions in support of another vice president with an even closer relationship to the company. What pet names our soldiers in Iraq have bestowed on KBR this time around I don't know, nor do I know who built the "infrastructure" for our first great offshore imperial venture, our annexation and conquest of the Philippines over a century ago, though Filipino columnist Renato Redentor Constantino might well.

 

The war in Vietnam we're re-imagining and arguing over in this presidential season is but a pale shadow of the grisly event itself, and our no less grisly military years in the Philippines, which paved the way for Vietnam, are long gone from American memory, though, as Constantino wants to remind us below, they shouldn't be.

 

And yet it would be incorrect to say that no one remembers this ancient history. Perhaps it's just that the wrong people remember it the wrong way. Take the following recent remarks by former general and would-be viceroy of Iraq Jay Garner, who was quickly replaced by L. Paul Bremer in the early days of our Iraqi debacle:

 

 

"'I think one of the most important things we can do right now is start getting basing rights' in both northern and southern Iraq, Garner said, adding that such bases could provide large areas for military training. 'I think we'd want to keep at least a brigade in the north, a self-sustaining brigade, which is larger than a regular brigade,' he added.

 

"Noting how establishing U.S. naval bases in the Philippines in the early 1900s allowed the United States to maintain a 'great presence in the Pacific,' Garner said, 'To me that's what Iraq is for the next few decades. We ought to have something there ... that gives us great presence in the Middle East. I think that's going to be necessary.'"

 

 

Back in the years between the conquest of the Philippines and the war in Vietnam, the Pacific was sometimes spoken of here as "America's lake" and in the World War II years there was even a tin-pan alley tune with the pop title, "To be specific, it's our Pacific." Somehow, "America's desert" doesn't have quite the same ring to it, and I don't think the title, "To be specific, they're our oil reserves" would fly.

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

I give the prisoners credit for not talking. I sometimes wonder how I would hold up to torture if "the enemy" was trying to get info out of me. I don't think I would last very long to be honest. All they would have to do is threaten harm to my genitals and I would sing.

 

ME: F U scumbag, I'm not telling you a thing.

 

ENEMY: If you do not talk, we will  insert destructive phrase here your balls.

 

ME: What do you need to know?

363707[/snapback]

 

Sing what?

 

Kinda of reminds me of my father telling me about the time he was in escape and evasion school. They asked him what is he gonna do if they start pulling his finger nails out? His reply: "Geneva Convention, name rank and serial #... What more do I know?... Anyway (to the higher up asking him the question) they aren't gonna capture me, they are going to capture you!"

 

[Ghost of BiB]

You mean Kill 'em Burn 'em and Run, right?

 

Let's remember, when we do our historical multiplication tables, that everything happening now began somewhere, some time. Take the construction and engineering company Kellogg, Brown & Root, now serving (and feeding) our troops in Iraq in so many overpriced ways. It was founded as Brown & Root in Texas in 1919; sponsored the political career of, and was then sponsored in its search for government contracts by Senator Lyndon Baines Johnson; after being swallowed up by Halliburton, a burgeoning oil-services firm, in 1962, it followed vice president, then president LBJ into Vietnam where it was deeply involved in constructing "infrastructure" - bases and the like - for the U.S. military. As Jane Mayer reminds us in her recent New Yorker article on Halliburton and its former CEO, our present vice president, in those rebellious and sardonic days Brown & Root was known to many American soldiers by the familiar nickname, "Burn and Loot."

 

And so it goes, as Kurt Vonnegut might say. And so it continues to go, as KBR, still part of Halliburton, supports the American effort in Iraq to the tune of multi-billions in support of another vice president with an even closer relationship to the company. What pet names our soldiers in Iraq have bestowed on KBR this time around I don't know, nor do I know who built the "infrastructure" for our first great offshore imperial venture, our annexation and conquest of the Philippines over a century ago, though Filipino columnist Renato Redentor Constantino might well.

 

The war in Vietnam we're re-imagining and arguing over in this presidential season is but a pale shadow of the grisly event itself, and our no less grisly military years in the Philippines, which paved the way for Vietnam, are long gone from American memory, though, as Constantino wants to remind us below, they shouldn't be.

 

And yet it would be incorrect to say that no one remembers this ancient history. Perhaps it's just that the wrong people remember it the wrong way. Take the following recent remarks by former general and would-be viceroy of Iraq Jay Garner, who was quickly replaced by L. Paul Bremer in the early days of our Iraqi debacle:

"'I think one of the most important things we can do right now is start getting basing rights' in both northern and southern Iraq, Garner said, adding that such bases could provide large areas for military training. 'I think we'd want to keep at least a brigade in the north, a self-sustaining brigade, which is larger than a regular brigade,' he added.

 

"Noting how establishing U.S. naval bases in the Philippines in the early 1900s allowed the United States to maintain a 'great presence in the Pacific,' Garner said, 'To me that's what Iraq is for the next few decades. We ought to have something there ... that gives us great presence in the Middle East. I think that's going to be necessary.'"

Back in the years between the conquest of the Philippines and the war in Vietnam, the Pacific was sometimes spoken of here as "America's lake" and in the World War II years there was even a tin-pan alley tune with the pop title, "To be specific, it's our Pacific." Somehow, "America's desert" doesn't have quite the same ring to it, and I don't think the title, "To be specific, they're our oil reserves" would fly.

 

363868[/snapback]

 

Hey - they paid my bills for a while.

[RkFast]

You mean Kill 'em Burn 'em and Run, right?

 

Let's remember, when we do our historical multiplication tables, that everything happening now began somewhere, some time. Take the construction and engineering company Kellogg, Brown & Root, now serving (and feeding) our troops in Iraq in so many overpriced ways. It was founded as Brown & Root in Texas in 1919; sponsored the political career of, and was then sponsored in its search for government contracts by Senator Lyndon Baines Johnson; after being swallowed up by Halliburton, a burgeoning oil-services firm, in 1962, it followed vice president, then president LBJ into Vietnam where it was deeply involved in constructing "infrastructure" - bases and the like - for the U.S. military. As Jane Mayer reminds us in her recent New Yorker article on Halliburton and its former CEO, our present vice president, in those rebellious and sardonic days Brown & Root was known to many American soldiers by the familiar nickname, "Burn and Loot."

 

And so it goes, as Kurt Vonnegut might say. And so it continues to go, as KBR, still part of Halliburton, supports the American effort in Iraq to the tune of multi-billions in support of another vice president with an even closer relationship to the company. What pet names our soldiers in Iraq have bestowed on KBR this time around I don't know, nor do I know who built the "infrastructure" for our first great offshore imperial venture, our annexation and conquest of the Philippines over a century ago, though Filipino columnist Renato Redentor Constantino might well.

 

The war in Vietnam we're re-imagining and arguing over in this presidential season is but a pale shadow of the grisly event itself, and our no less grisly military years in the Philippines, which paved the way for Vietnam, are long gone from American memory, though, as Constantino wants to remind us below, they shouldn't be.

 

And yet it would be incorrect to say that no one remembers this ancient history. Perhaps it's just that the wrong people remember it the wrong way. Take the following recent remarks by former general and would-be viceroy of Iraq Jay Garner, who was quickly replaced by L. Paul Bremer in the early days of our Iraqi debacle:

"'I think one of the most important things we can do right now is start getting basing rights' in both northern and southern Iraq, Garner said, adding that such bases could provide large areas for military training. 'I think we'd want to keep at least a brigade in the north, a self-sustaining brigade, which is larger than a regular brigade,' he added.

 

"Noting how establishing U.S. naval bases in the Philippines in the early 1900s allowed the United States to maintain a 'great presence in the Pacific,' Garner said, 'To me that's what Iraq is for the next few decades. We ought to have something there ... that gives us great presence in the Middle East. I think that's going to be necessary.'"

Back in the years between the conquest of the Philippines and the war in Vietnam, the Pacific was sometimes spoken of here as "America's lake" and in the World War II years there was even a tin-pan alley tune with the pop title, "To be specific, it's our Pacific." Somehow, "America's desert" doesn't have quite the same ring to it, and I don't think the title, "To be specific, they're our oil reserves" would fly.

 

363868[/snapback]

 

Funny......I dont remember much talk about KBR and Halliburton when Clinton was president.

[KRC]

Funny......I dont remember much talk about KBR and Halliburton when Clinton was president.

363888[/snapback]

 

They only became evil when Bush took office.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Funny......I dont remember much talk about KBR and Halliburton when Clinton was president.

363888[/snapback]

 

Hey brother I joined this forum in 2002... You would have heard me screaming just the same!

 

I wish the internet took hold another ten years earlier... It would have put all this Clinton whining to rest.

[ExiledInIllinois]

They only became evil when Bush took office.

363890[/snapback]

 

 

Tell yourself that... That is why I put in the history. What about LBJ... And he was a dem?