James Lindsay gives BRILLIANT speech to European Parliament on the origins of “Wokism”!

[The Frankish Reich]

On 6/19/2023 at 3:44 PM, JaCrispy said:

I’m telling ya, you should really give the video I posted in this thread a shot…I think you might be pleasantly surprised…

 

Lindsay’s story is quite interesting…His PHD is in a particular mathematics that focuses on pattern recognition…

 

He was never really into politics and considers himself a liberal (he even says he was actually an atheist for years)…But when he noticed Woke ideology starting to seep into the STEM classes he was taking, he decided to read and study everything he could find on the subject…

 

The result was something he least expected to find…He was able to trace it roots back 175 years!

 

Even if you don’t agree with everything he says, I have yet to hear anyone explain Wokeism like this before…Either way, I think you will enjoy it…👍

I take pride in having an open mind, so I did watch this video.

Lindsay is indeed far better than most of these public intellectuals of the new right. I can't really argue with anything in the first half of the video. It is a defensible take on Marx and Marx's purpose. (I will disagree, however, with the silly characterization of Marx as a "theologian" rather than an economist. True, he wasn't an economist - there really wasn't any such thing in his time, as we understand "economist" today - but calling him a theologian is just saying that anyone who envisions a better future for humanity is necessarily a religious-type leader. Which he wasn't.)

 

It goes awry in the second half. Yes, a lot of the modern "critical" studies are grounded in what academics would call "Marxian" (as opposed to "Marxist") thinking. That is, analysis of the type that couldn't be done if Marx hadn't existed, but that isn't expressly following Marx's lead. But it's way, way overwrought.

 

Example: 

Proposition: Disney supports a woke (hence Marxist) agenda, both explicitly (by criticizing Florida law) and implicitly (by putting out "entertainment" projects that undermine bourgeois values).

But: in reality, Disney is doing exactly what a Marxist believes a capitalist would do. It is "appropriating" its critics, throwing them a bone by acting all "woke" in things that don't really matter to "capital," like support of drag shows. Meanwhile, it continues to do what it does best: the "commodification of leisure." The best Marxist explanation I've ever heard was in this little rhyme from the old English (Marxist) band, Gang of Four:

 

"The problem of leisure,

What to do for pleasure."

 

Disney exists - thrives, makes tons of money - by convincing you that it's not good enough to have leisure time at home to spend eating, drinking, playing games with your family, friends, and neighbors. No! That doesn't make (much) money for anyone. You must haul the family to a designated Pleasure Location where you will spend money to have "fun," and spend even more money to cut in line ahead of the funseekers who have a little less money than you have.

 

Jim Gaffigan nails it - everyone asks him what he's doing this summer, as if "staying home, relaxing, and enjoying the fine weather" isn't enough:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jim-gaffigan-does-not-have-summer-plans/

 

You must consume their movies and TV, and then be convinced to buy their tie-in merchandise. And while there may be some concessions (appropriation?) to "woke" values, on the whole their entire operation reinforces traditional bourgeois values: family fun (which must be structured and monetized), traditional gender roles (some boys may want to be princesses, but from my experience ALL little American girls want to be princesses), etc., etc.

 

Leisure is not a wonderful outgrowth of our capitalist system that allows you to have a surplus of time to spend away from productive activity. It is a problem to be solved by a capitalist colossus like Disney (or Universal, or Apple, or Taylor Swift). Marxists call it the commodification of leisure. We can recognize that this has happened but still not agree with Marx's prescription.

 

So what I'm saying is that Lindsay is a good cultural critic himself, but that he's missing the forest for the trees.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by The Frankish Reich

[HomeskillitMoorman]

When did this all get so doomsy and dramatic? 
 

Some of you need to get out and get some fresh air and play a social sport or something. 
 

This is always what the politicians and  political media have wanted, even the “independent” ones, for people to hunker down and over-consume this stuff and think the world is coming to an end. 

 

[BillsFanNC]

12 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

When did this all get so doomsy and dramatic? 
 

Some of you need to get out and get some fresh air and play a social sport or something. 
 

This is always what the politicians and  political media have wanted, even the “independent” ones, for people to hunker down and over-consume this stuff and think the world is coming to an end. 

 

 

Yeah, the last five years have been business as usual alright!

 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

12 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said:

 

Yeah, the last five years have been business as usual alright!

 

And yet…this is still about as good as things have ever overall been in the world. 
 

There are still big problems - child sex trafficking, poverty, hunger, crime…probably none of which involve a 30 minute speech on “Woke”. That’s part of the “culture war” that people are involved in because they’re bored and likely don’t have any actual problems.   I can’t imagine sitting through that, but you’re totally free to do you. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

And yet…this is still about as good as things have ever overall been in the world. 

Correct.

The number of people living in extreme poverty worldwide has plummeted.

https://blogs.worldbank.org/developmenttalk/end-extreme-poverty-getting-back-pre-covid-19-reduction-rates-not-enough#:~:text=From 1990 to 2014%2C the,in 2014 (Figure 1).

 

From 1990 to 2014, the world made astonishing progress in reducing extreme deprivation: more than one billion people moved out of extreme poverty. The global poverty rate declined by 1.1 percentage points a year on average, from 37.8 percent in 1990 to 11.2 percent in 2014 (Figure 1)

 

Global terrorism seemed to be an intractable problem after 9/11. It may erupt again, but the last significant international terrorist event in the United States was 6 years ago.

 

We've seen significant backsliding in the last decade in freedom worldwide (Hong Kong, Russia), but overall there is far more freedom in the world than there was a generation ago.

 

 

[BillStime]

Funny how "wokinsm" doesn't include going after the true groomers.

 

The MAGA "wokers" want to completely sweep these inconvenient things under the carpet and blame everyone else... because they don't want you focused on this and have NOTHING else to run on and it shows.

 

 

[BillsFanNC]

16 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

And yet…this is still about as good as things have ever overall been in the world. 
 

There are still big problems - child sex trafficking, poverty, hunger, crime…probably none of which involve a 30 minute speech on “Woke”. That’s part of the “culture war” that people are involved in because they’re bored and likely don’t have any actual problems.   I can’t imagine sitting through that, but you’re totally free to do you. 

 

It's all a part of your government lying to you. Repeatedly.

 

I'll start and end with pandemic measures that shut down our economy and ***** on your personal freedoms.

 

But sure feel free to keep whistling past the graveyard.

 

Wake the ***** up.

[Tommy Callahan]

please keep saying how amazing everything is. 

 

sounds like the song from the Lego movie.  

 

and way out of touch.

 

love the part about how its better globally.

 

Any more Woke means your parroting Corporate/state/PAC/Charity narratives.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BillStime]

1 minute ago, Chris farley said:

Any more Woke means your parroting Corporate/state/PAC/Charity narratives.  

 

[Pokebball]

31 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

And yet…this is still about as good as things have ever overall been in the world. 
 

There are still big problems - child sex trafficking, poverty, hunger, crime…probably none of which involve a 30 minute speech on “Woke”. That’s part of the “culture war” that people are involved in because they’re bored and likely don’t have any actual problems.   I can’t imagine sitting through that, but you’re totally free to do you. 

Because of woke?

[BillsFanNC]

Regarding covid I'll reiterate again...

 

I've worked with the CDC on a pandemic preparedness project for antiviral resistant influenza for years.

 

What we witnessed during covid was mere child's play for what  CDC has actually been preparing for.

 

But that ship had sailed. Nobody not a useful idiot trusts the government anymore. If we actually get an extremely virulent H1N1 seasonal strain or God forbid and H5N1 pandemic strain.....

 

Then that's all she wrote.

 

 

Because the vast majority of people, for very good reason, will not follow the public health measures commensurate with a pandemic pathogen that actually warrants those measures.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

19 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said:

 

It's all a part of your government lying to you. Repeatedly.

 

I'll start and end with pandemic measures that shut down our economy and ***** on your personal freedoms.

 

But sure feel free to keep whistling past the graveyard.

 

Wake the ***** up.

 

I didn't agree with the pandemic measures, I basically lived the way I still wanted to while respecting others. I didn't care about masks for myself but I wore them when I frequented businesses that wanted me to or even in public if people were around that were wearing them just out of courtesy. I didn't agree with federally enforcing private businesses to operate that way, I think it should have been their choice and the choice of the consumer to go to those places or not. I don't put my trust in the government. 

 

My takes are consistent - I also believe it's "my body/my choice" for both abortion and vaccines.

 

Still not sure what I need a "waking up" to. 

 

Let me ask you this though...isn't there just a little bit of irony in this side talking about taking away your personal freedoms when this is a side that has been against things like gay marriage because they want to impose their beliefs on society? I mean does that sound familiar at all to you here?

 

Or that they feel they shouldn't have to serve someone if it doesn't align with their religious beliefs (which I'm fine with)...but then are angry that they can have comments deleted or be "censored" on social media sites if it doesn't align with the beliefs of those companies? 

 

It's the exact same thing on both sides wrapped in different packages. The entitlement, victimhood, selective outrage...all of it. I don't know how you don't see that. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

27 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

please keep saying how amazing everything is. 

 

sounds like the song from the Lego movie.  

 

and way out of touch.

 

love the part about how its better globally.

 

Any more Woke means your parroting Corporate/state/PAC/Charity narratives.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Saying the world is as about as good as it's ever been is not even remotely close to saying everything is amazing. At least try to have a good faith conversation here instead of twisting somebody's words to try to divert to your own narrative, it's bad form. 

 

You do know that the world has always been filled with varying levels of suffering, disease, hunger, famine, predation, poverty, rape, violence, murder, natural disasters, corruption, etc right? Saying that we're at a point where those things overall are at around their lowest levels is not calling everything amazing. 

 

And actually acknowledging how much those things still exist actually supports how much lower level the culture war and "woke" is and how silly it is that people are so obsessed with it. 

[Tommy Callahan]

Just now, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

Saying the world is as about as good as it's ever been is not even remotely close to saying everything is amazing. At least try to have a good faith conversation here instead of twisting somebody's words to try to divert to your own narrative, it's bad form. 

 

You do know that the world has always been filled with varying levels of suffering, disease, hunger, famine, predation, poverty, rape, violence, murder, natural disasters, corruption, etc right? Saying that we're at a point where those things overall are at around their lowest levels is not calling everything amazing. 

 

And actually acknowledging how much those things still exist actually supports how much lower level the culture war and "woke" is and how silly it is that people are so obsessed with it. 

when the source is the UN, WEF, or any of the other Global groups, the data is hard to trust.

 

We just got out of the covid pandemic where those same groups lost a lot of integrity.

 

My takes are consistent - I also believe it's "my body/my choice" for both abortion and vaccines.?  Like binary.  all the way. All or nothing? No middle ground? Polio? Measles?  Term limit?  

 

 

I didn't agree with the pandemic measures, I basically lived the way I still wanted to while respecting others. I didn't care about masks for myself but I wore them when I frequented businesses that wanted me to or even in public if people were around that were wearing them just out of courtesy. I didn't agree with federally enforcing private businesses to operate that way, I think it should have been their choice and the choice of the consumer to go to those places or not. I don't put my trust in the government.   you don't live in NY?  cause it was mandated. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, HomeskillitMoorman said:

Saying the world is as about as good as it's ever been is not even remotely close to saying everything is amazing. At least try to have a good faith conversation here instead of twisting somebody's words to try to divert to your own narrative, it's bad form. 

 

But some people aren't interested in a rational discussion.

 

I say "the United States economy is the strongest in the world now" and they either deny that fact, or say it would be so much better if we didn't have Biden. There's not even a "yes, but ..." like "yes, but the over stimulation of the economy today will come back to haunt us tomorrow." That would be rational. 

 

They say we "hate America." But they are the ones constantly, incessantly talking about how America has turned into a trash nation. Some even say it isn't worth saving anymore, that it should be split into two. But they "love America."

[HomeskillitMoorman]

27 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Because of woke?

 

Yes, everything is because of woke. Woke can mean anything they want it to mean. It can encompass all people, animals, topics, and ideologies. 

[BillsFanNC]

8 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I didn't agree with the pandemic measures, I basically lived the way I still wanted to while respecting others. I didn't care about masks for myself but I wore them when I frequented businesses that wanted me to or even in public if people were around that were wearing them just out of courtesy. I didn't agree with federally enforcing private businesses to operate that way, I think it should have been their choice and the choice of the consumer to go to those places or not. I don't put my trust in the government. 

 

But you went along with it. Well past the 15 days to slow the spread I'm assuming?

 

 

8 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

My takes are consistent - I also believe it's "my body/my choice" for both abortion and vaccines.

 

Still not sure what I need a "waking up" to. 

 

Let me ask you this though...isn't there just a little bit of irony in this side talking about taking away your personal freedoms when this is a side that has been against things like gay marriage because they want to impose their beliefs on society? I mean does that sound familiar at all to you here?

 

Gay marriage being legalized far and wide over recent years isn't enough progress for you?

 

The left had that in the bag and largely accepted by the vast majority of the country. Myself included.

 

Then they began insisting on talking to children about sex, of ANY flavor, in schools and populating school libraries with porn.

 

Are you OK with THAT?

 

Or is that book banning?

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

Or that they feel they shouldn't have to serve someone if it doesn't align with their religious beliefs (which I'm fine with)...but then are angry that they can have comments deleted or be "censored" on social media sites if it doesn't align with the beliefs of those companies? 

 

It's the exact same thing on both sides wrapped in different packages. The entitlement, victimhood, selective outrage...all of it. I don't know how you don't see that. 

 

I think the constitution is perfectly clear on the GOVERNMENT censoring speech.

 

I see it perfectly. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

1 minute ago, Chris farley said:

when the source is the UN, WEF, or any of the other Global groups, the data is hard to trust.

 

We just got out of the covid pandemic where those same groups lost a lot of integrity.

 

My takes are consistent - I also believe it's "my body/my choice" for both abortion and vaccines.?  Like binary.  all the way. All or nothing? No middle ground? Polio? Measles?  Term limit?  

 

 

I didn't agree with the pandemic measures, I basically lived the way I still wanted to while respecting others. I didn't care about masks for myself but I wore them when I frequented businesses that wanted me to or even in public if people were around that were wearing them just out of courtesy. I didn't agree with federally enforcing private businesses to operate that way, I think it should have been their choice and the choice of the consumer to go to those places or not. I don't put my trust in the government.   you don't live in NY?  cause it was mandated. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are data sources that are hard to trust, I don't disagree with that. When would you say was a notably better time period overall for the world in terms of human suffering and where would you go to cite that data? For me, technological advance in many areas, natural evolution, and social programs (the structure, integrity, and competency of them can definitely be debated) have contributed to this still being amongst the best times for humans on this planet in our history but I'm listening if you have anything different. 

 

Fair question on the my body/my choice comment. I believe in the overall philosophy of it and with vaccines I was talking about the COVID ones but yes I would have some outliers like late term and polio/measles. 

 

And yes I know it was mandated in NY and in many other states and countries and I did not agree at all with that. 

[Tommy Callahan]

Just now, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

There are data sources that are hard to trust, I don't disagree with that. When would you say was a notably better time period overall for the world in terms of human suffering and where would you go to cite that data? For me, technological advance in many areas, natural evolution, and social programs (the structure, integrity, and competency of them can definitely be debated) have contributed to this still being amongst the best times for humans on this planet in our history but I'm listening if you have anything different. 

 

Fair question on the my body/my choice comment. I believe in the overall philosophy of it and with vaccines I was talking about the COVID ones but yes I would have some outliers like late term and polio/measles. 

 

And yes I know it was mandated in NY and in many other states and countries and I did not agree at all with that. 

I think the first statement is as complex as the second topic.  and trying to state its binary (better or worse) is a hard sell from our viewpoint on our ivory tower.

 

Do either of us really understand the life of a teen in the Congo working in lithium mines?  and if its better cause he can access the internet on his 4 hours off a day?

 

The untouchables in one of the fastest growing economies in the world (India)

 

Muslims/Christians in China?

 

slavery all through the middle east and Africa

 

like you mentioned before, is better just being a consumer?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

9 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said:

 

But you went along with it. Well past the 15 days to slow the spread I'm assuming?

 

 

 

Gay marriage being legalized far and wide over recent years isn't enough progress for you?

 

The left had that in the bag and largely accepted by the vast majority of the country. Myself included.

 

Then they began insisting on talking to children about sex, of ANY flavor, in schools and populating school libraries with porn.

 

Are you OK with THAT?

 

Or is that book banning?

 

 

 

 

I think the constitution is perfectly clear on the GOVERNMENT censoring speech.

 

I see it perfectly. 

 

I "went along" with it as a courtesy to people that were afraid and to respect certain businesses after the mandates that were still requesting masks, absolutely. You can see that as me being some kind of patsy for the Government, but I didn't do it for them. I was still out there playing sports with my friends with no masks that didn't care about that and hanging out with people who both cared about that and didn't. If they did, I wore a mask. Either way I didn't impose my personal beliefs at the time on anyone else. 

 

Yes, gay marriage was finally legalized. But what do you think was behind the resistance? Just because that side lost doesn't change what their philosophy was. Their philosophy was to restrict somebody else's personal freedoms because of their own religious and personal beliefs. There are many Gay religious people as well and they were restricted of their own religious liberties to get married. I don't think a Christian Conservative web designer should have to take on a project for a gay wedding...but then why do they themselves expect to be served by everyone else regardless of their beliefs including social media platforms?

 

We've talked about this before and I'm pretty sure you know the answer...no I'm not cool with talking to kids about sex or pornographic books in school libraries. I'm also not cool with indoctrinating kids with unsubstantiated ideologies that include some parts of transgenderism and Christianity. Do you believe the Bible should also be banned from every school? Maybe you do, I'm not asking that in an accusatory way. Do you think that's an appropriate book for a child? I think you would at least agree that the high majority of people who want some of these other books banned do not want the Bible banned. 

 

My problem is again, you only see any of this from one side and on one hand you want the entire LGBTQ population to be accountable for their extremists but not religious/conservative people for theirs. They are 100% doing the same thing. Proselytizing is indoctrination wrapped up in a different package and there are no ages where they aren't coming after people from. But I don't hold that against the entire Christian community and don't want to restrict their rights because of it. 

 

In the same way you think I've been somehow brainwashed by the government, even though I constantly rail against them, I believe you've been taken in by Conservative media to the point where you don't see that these two extreme sides are largely the same and I think that's where we're at.