Can Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah cover Kelce as effectively as Lavonte David?

[Royale with Cheese]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

Ok, so basically you’re saying that you have a problem with me putting Lavonte David in the title.  Got it.  
 

Yeah, Kelce had 8-82 and 0 Tds in the first game.  That’s 3 yards per catch below his season average.  Zero TDs.  David defended him very well. He’s one of the best coverage LBs in the league.  But you can pretend that he’s just another LB like Milano and Edmunds if you like.  He’s much better than both of them and our guys can’t hold a candle to him in coverage.  
 

And I’ll repeat......I’ve said multiple times, the main reason that TB shut down the KC O was because of the chiefs lack of OL and the TB pass rush.   
 

all this talk about Edmunds and Milano being good coverage backers.....yet we can’t cover any tight ends.  Is it scheme?  Is it the player’s?  Is it the scheme we run because the coaches don’t believe in the players?  The answer is probably a combination.  Idk.....but we better figure it out.  
 

 

In 2019, we had of the better teams in covering tight ends.

 

If David had the same pass rush with the front 4 as Milano/Edmunds had last year, David is surely not “shutting down” Kelce.

 

I think you’re really reaching with the “8-82, 3 ypc below is season average” as proof David covered him well.  Well his 8 catches were above his season average.  That’s cherry picking.

 

Kelce was held to 3 catches twice in the season.  Does than mean those linebackers were unbelievable in coverage that game?  A great player isn’t going to dominate every game.  In a 16 game season, they are going be above and below their season average for a myriad of reasons.  

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Then why day effectively as Lavonte David?  He wasn't the deciding factor.   Bottom line was KCs oline was injured, and Bucs dline manhandled them.   Again, David is a very good player but not why Kelce scored 0 tds or why "David effectively" covered him.

 

If def line isn't the best player at 30, I'd look long and hard at a CB who can play man to man.  Mcdermott and Frazier are prone to play zone coverages, but when we did try going to man in the 2nd half, we got absolutely torched by Hill.  Need more speed in the secondary.  Our LBs are fine, JOK maybe would have been the choice if Milano wasn't resigned.  

 

But this has been asked in other threads, who is coming off the field?  Taron, Edmunds or Milano?  JOk isn't giving us substantial, if much,  "marginal" improvement over any of them

David is a great cover LB.  He may not have been the #1 deciding factor in shutting down the KC offense, but he had an impact.  
 

He can play alongside Edmunds and Milano.  Let’s not act like Taron Johnson is a superstar.  

 

And then he can start when Milano inevitably gets hurt.  Or if Edmunds gets hurt.    Or he can be our starter going forward if Edmunds happens to fail.  

 

The point of drafting him is to add a new wrinkle to our defense.  Mix up our personnel more. Show difference looks.  not doing what the opponents expect from a McD Frazier defense.  He’s a Jack of all trades and allows us to disguise our coverage better. 
 

you say we need speed.  Drafting JOK brings speed.  And the. We’d still have our 2nd rd pick....where we can draft a CB with speed.  
 

you don’t like the move. Cool. 

[MasterStrategist]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

David is a great cover LB.  He may not have been the #1 deciding factor in shutting down the KC offense, but he had an impact.  
 

He can play alongside Edmunds and Milano.  Let’s not act like Taron Johnson is a superstar.  

 

And then he can start when Milano inevitably gets hurt.  Or if Edmunds gets hurt.    Or he can be our starter going forward if Edmunds happens to fail.  

 

The point of drafting him is to add a new wrinkle to our defense.  Mix up our personnel more. Show difference looks.  not doing what the opponents expect from a McD Frazier defense.  He’s a Jack of all trades and allows us to disguise our coverage better. 
 

you say we need speed.  Drafting JOK brings speed.  And the. We’d still have our 2nd rd pick....where we can draft a CB with speed.  
 

you don’t like the move. Cool. 

Need speed at Cb2.  Not at the same position that Milano plays.  Exact same position. 

 

JOK is not a nickle corner.  And Taron might not be a superstar, but again "marginal" value is not drafting JOK.  It's taking an impact CB2 or DL on defense.  

 

Honestly doesn't matter, very good chance JOK is drafted ahead of us.  But cmon this talk about a big nickle is overhyped

[NewEra]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

In 2019, we had of the better teams in covering tight ends.

 

If David had the same pass rush with the front 4 as Milano/Edmunds had last year, David is surely not “shutting down” Kelce.

 

I think you’re really reaching with the “8-82, 3 ypc below is season average” as proof David covered him well.  Well his 8 catches were above his season average.  That’s cherry picking.

 

Kelce was held to 3 catches twice in the season.  Does than mean those linebackers were unbelievable in coverage that game?  A great player isn’t going to dominate every game.  In a 16 game season, they are going be above and below their season average for a myriad of reasons.  

Ok, this is what I gathered from your post:  I’m reaching when I say that David is a great coverage LB because the stats I used don’t represent that because his 8 catches in that one game are above his season average (Meanwhile his yards are under his average). 

 

This is hilarious.  Literally every time I compliment a player on another team, the nitpicking whiners come out of the woodwork and argue the fact.  You’re literally arguing with me about Lavonte David being a good coverage LB.  

 

Ok, you’re right. My post is ridiculous and I’m reaching.  
 

again....I’ve said countless times.....the Bucs pass rush/Chiefs OL was the biggest factor in the score.  Having David cover Kelce helped.  He is better in coverage than Edmunds. Get over it.  

[Royale with Cheese]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

Oh my bad, we defend TE’s just fine.  Put down the stat book and watch the games. Lots of stats happen during garbage time.  

I have eyes.  I can see.  Covering tight ends is a problem for us.  Old man rivers was picking us apart with bum TEs.  Edmunds was god awful in coverage last season. His 120ish qbr against shows that to be true.  David is a MUCH better coverage Lb than Edmunds is, regardless of whatever “stats” you’d like to use.  Edmunds:  120 qbr against.  Stats. 
 

Milano is an injury waiting to happen.  Then we have have Klein and Edmunds in coverage.  They played well last year, let’s hope they can do it again.....because Milano will likely miss time. We have no LB depth. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

If you're going to use stats....

@ScottLaw

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/anatomy-of-a-divisional-round-win-buccaneers-need-to-eliminate-devin-whites-reverse-gear/

That said, there are times when even the best linebackers should have their roles reduced from a variety perspective. Devin White, the second-year star for the Buccaneers, has the most sacks among off-the-ball ‘backers with nine, the second-most total pressures with 31, the fifth-most stops with 56, and the ninth-most tackles with 95.

That’s the good side. The bad side? Per Pro Football Focus, White has the most targets in coverage among off-ball ‘backers with 98, and he’s allowed the most catches (86) for the most receiving yards (761), the second-most yards after catch (410), the second-most touchdowns allowed (four, tied with several other linebackers), and an opponent passer rating of 112.6. If White has an absolute dominant trait to his game, it’s his knack for creating quarterback pressure. If there’s an obvious liability, it’s White’s ability to hold up in coverage. That may change over time given White’s eagerness to improve, game intelligence, and physical gifts, but we are where we are with this.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/buccaneers/news/tampa-bay-buccaneers-devin-white-new-orleans-saints-coverage-playoffs

 

However, if there's one area the arguable Pro Bowl snub could improve, it's in coverage. Pro Football Focus dings White for allowing 87.8% of his 98 targets this season to have been caught, with opposing pass-catchers tallying 761 yards and four touchdowns against White in coverage.

Specifically, New Orleans Saints passers completed 15-of-17 passes against White in the NFC South rivals' two matchups this year. And the Buccaneers face the Saints this Sunday in the Divisional Round of the playoffs.

White failed to improve much in coverage as the season went along. Following the second Saints contest, he allowed 39-of-44 passes to be caught against him, for 299 yards and a touchdown.

 

https://www.bucsnation.com/2021/3/15/22329516/bucs-nfl-super-bowl-lv-getting-better-to-be-the-best-devin-white

 

Here's the Bucs site talking about his struggles in coverage during the season.  And yes, they do end it by saying his coverage ability improved in the playoffs.  But to say Milano doesn't hold a candle to him based on 4 games doesn't seem strong.  He has the benefit of a much better pass rush as well.

 

So in 2019, we all knew that White had difficulties in coverage, but we all had the assumption that he would improve in this area before the 2020 season started.

Well, without an off-season due to COVID-19, it was really tough for second year players to improve from the mistakes they made in year one. For White, this was also true.....

White was not all that great in coverage prior to the bye week in 2020. According to SIS, he only had five incompletions when targeted in the first 12 games. However, he was able to overcome some of these early struggles, which can be seen statistically through the additional five incompletions that he tallied when targeted in only three games post-bye (he missed Week 17 due to COVID).

From what I saw, the two biggest issues White had early on were his drop angle, and his tendency to fixate on the eyes of the quarterback and lose focus on the receivers in the area....

His improvement in pass coverage was incredibly apparent during the playoffs, and especially the Super Bowl where he got to end the Chiefs hopes with “one last indignity” after intercepting Mahomes in the end zone

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Need speed at Cb2.  Not at the same position that Milano plays.  Exact same position. 

 

JOK is not a nickle corner.  And Taron might not be a superstar, but again "marginal" value is not drafting JOK.  It's taking an impact CB2 or DL on defense.  

 

Honestly doesn't matter, very good chance JOK is drafted ahead of us.  But cmon this talk about a big nickle is overhyped

Here’s the point—— we don’t have to play nickel 91% of the time.  I believe that that’s part of our problem.  Other teams are able to play less nickel than us (literally every team in the league played less nickel than us).  We should be able to play Edmunds, Milano and JOK at the same time.  We can also start JOK when Milano gets hurt.  He will play.  Play a lot. 
 

get over the cookie cutter McD defense.  We have to adapt.  Try new things.  
 

Like I’ve already said, we can still draft speed at CB if we draft JOK.  They aren’t exclusive to each other .  Don’t act like they have to be

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Ok, this is what I gathered from your post:  I’m reaching when I say that David is a great coverage LB because the stats I used don’t represent that because his 8 catches in that one game are above his season average (Meanwhile his yards are under his average). 

 

This is hilarious.  Literally every time I compliment a player on another team, the nitpicking whiners come out of the woodwork and argue the fact.  You’re literally arguing with me about Lavonte David being a good coverage LB.  

 

Ok, you’re right. My post is ridiculous and I’m reaching.  
 

again....I’ve said countless times.....the Bucs pass rush/Chiefs OL was the biggest factor in the score.  Having David cover Kelce helped.  He is better in coverage than Edmunds. Get over it.  

 

It seems if any has a counter argument, you just don't like it.  What did Kelce do to us in the first game?  That doesn't count?

 

I provided a few links about White struggling this season in coverage.  The Bucs Nation site breaks it down with film and this guy has watched White more than you have by A LOT.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[NewEra]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If you're going to use stats....

@ScottLaw

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/anatomy-of-a-divisional-round-win-buccaneers-need-to-eliminate-devin-whites-reverse-gear/

That said, there are times when even the best linebackers should have their roles reduced from a variety perspective. Devin White, the second-year star for the Buccaneers, has the most sacks among off-the-ball ‘backers with nine, the second-most total pressures with 31, the fifth-most stops with 56, and the ninth-most tackles with 95.

That’s the good side. The bad side? Per Pro Football Focus, White has the most targets in coverage among off-ball ‘backers with 98, and he’s allowed the most catches (86) for the most receiving yards (761), the second-most yards after catch (410), the second-most touchdowns allowed (four, tied with several other linebackers), and an opponent passer rating of 112.6. If White has an absolute dominant trait to his game, it’s his knack for creating quarterback pressure. If there’s an obvious liability, it’s White’s ability to hold up in coverage. That may change over time given White’s eagerness to improve, game intelligence, and physical gifts, but we are where we are with this.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/buccaneers/news/tampa-bay-buccaneers-devin-white-new-orleans-saints-coverage-playoffs

 

However, if there's one area the arguable Pro Bowl snub could improve, it's in coverage. Pro Football Focus dings White for allowing 87.8% of his 98 targets this season to have been caught, with opposing pass-catchers tallying 761 yards and four touchdowns against White in coverage.

Specifically, New Orleans Saints passers completed 15-of-17 passes against White in the NFC South rivals' two matchups this year. And the Buccaneers face the Saints this Sunday in the Divisional Round of the playoffs.

White failed to improve much in coverage as the season went along. Following the second Saints contest, he allowed 39-of-44 passes to be caught against him, for 299 yards and a touchdown.

 

https://www.bucsnation.com/2021/3/15/22329516/bucs-nfl-super-bowl-lv-getting-better-to-be-the-best-devin-white

 

Here's the Bucs site talking about his struggles in coverage during the season.  And yes, they do end it by saying his coverage ability improved in the playoffs.  But to say Milano doesn't hold a candle to him based on 4 games doesn't seem strong.  He has the benefit of a much better pass rush as well.

 

So in 2019, we all knew that White had difficulties in coverage, but we all had the assumption that he would improve in this area before the 2020 season started.

Well, without an off-season due to COVID-19, it was really tough for second year players to improve from the mistakes they made in year one. For White, this was also true.....

White was not all that great in coverage prior to the bye week in 2020. According to SIS, he only had five incompletions when targeted in the first 12 games. However, he was able to overcome some of these early struggles, which can be seen statistically through the additional five incompletions that he tallied when targeted in only three games post-bye (he missed Week 17 due to COVID).

From what I saw, the two biggest issues White had early on were his drop angle, and his tendency to fixate on the eyes of the quarterback and lose focus on the receivers in the area....

His improvement in pass coverage was incredibly apparent during the playoffs, and especially the Super Bowl where he got to end the Chiefs hopes with “one last indignity” after intercepting Mahomes in the end zone

Why are you quoting me and talking about Devin White?  Please explain.

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

It seems if any has a counter argument, you just don't like it.  What did Kelce do to us in the first game?  That doesn't count?

 

I provided a few links about White struggling this season in coverage.  The Bucs Nation site breaks it down with film and this guy has watched White more than you have by A LOT.

Dude.....

 

since when did Devin White turn into Lavonte David? 
 

go away.  Stop biting my ankles please

Edited April 24, 2021 by NewEra

[MasterStrategist]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Here’s the point—— we don’t have to play nickel 91% of the time.  I believe that that’s part of our problem.  Other teams are able to play less nickel than us (literally every team in the league played less nickel than us).  We should be able to play Edmunds, Milano and JOK at the same time.  We can also start JOK when Milano gets hurt.  He will play.  Play a lot. 
 

get over the cookie cutter McD defense.  We have to adapt.  Try new things.  
 

Like I’ve already said, we can still draft speed at CB if we draft JOK.  They aren’t exclusive to each other .  Don’t act like they have to be

Again your solution is we need to upgrade over Taron Johnson effectively, that is who you have coming off the field.  Don't agree that's worth our 1st rounder.  

 

You've been talking circles this entire thread.  First that we should be finding our own Lavonte David, newsflash we have that already (Milano).  Then that David is better than Edmunds in coverage, sure Davis is.  Different positions, and again, Milano is darn good at coverage.  

 

Then that we need to.put a "new wrinkle" into our defense, by essentially taking a 2nd Matt Milano.  

 

Our defense has been very good under McDermott, up until Milano and Edmunds both fought through injuries this past season.  Star opted out, and our DEs underperformed.  Your solution is to find a 2nd Wlb, cool...but no thanks.

[Royale with Cheese]

17 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Why are you quoting me and talking about Devin White?  Please explain.

 

I thought you were originally including White like Scott was but you weren't....you can disregard.

 

Here's my stance.  Since we offered the contract to Milano and wanted to keep them, I trust they know his importance to the defense.

You say you have eyes, so do they. 

Edmunds has been voted to the Pro Bowl twice.  It's a 1/3 fans, coaches and players.  What fans outside of Buffalo is voting for Edmunds?

This doesn't prove he's great but it does show he's not awful like you say he is.  The Bills will pick up his 5th year option.  McDermott isn't afraid to make changes and he's not doing it here.

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Again your solution is we need to upgrade over Taron Johnson effectively, that is who you have coming off the field.  Don't agree that's worth our 1st rounder.  

 

You've been talking circles this entire thread.  First that we should be finding our own Lavonte David, newsflash we have that already (Milano).  Then that David is better than Edmunds in coverage, sure Davis is.  Different positions, and again, Milano is darn good at coverage.  

 

Then that we need to.put a "new wrinkle" into our defense, by essentially taking a 2nd Matt Milano.  

 

Our defense has been very good under McDermott, up until Milano and Edmunds both fought through injuries this past season.  Star opted out, and our DEs underperformed.  Your solution is to find a 2nd Wlb, cool...but no thanks.

No.  My point is that we need to switch up our defense.  Adding a player like JOK would allow us to do just that.  THAT is my point. Thanks for trying to tell me what my point is though. 

Edmunds and Milano were both healthy vs the chiefs in the playoffs.  So was the entire D.  You can pretend that injuries are the reason that the chiefs dominated our D in both games, but that would just make you wrong.  Things need to change. 
 

my solution is to switch things up and not play straight nickel d 91% of the time.  
 

I’m not saying that this is the ONLY way to improve.  It’s a thought.  It’s a possibility. Y’all acting like I’m saying this is the only way to improve.  Stop being so closed minded

 

14 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I thought you were originally including White like Scott was but you weren't....you can disregard.

 

Here's my stance.  Since we offered the contract to Milano and wanted to keep them, I trust they know his importance to the defense.

You say you have eyes, so do they. 

Edmunds has been voted to the Pro Bowl twice.  It's a 1/3 fans, coaches and players.  What fans outside of Buffalo is voting for Edmunds?

This doesn't prove he's great but it does show he's not awful like you say he is.  The Bills picked up his 5th year option.  McDermott isn't afraid to make changes and he's not doing it here.

 

Edmunds is great.
 

You watched him.  Did you think he deserved to be in the pro bowl last year?  This will say a lot about our conversation 

[MasterStrategist]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

No.  My point is that we need to switch up our defense.  Adding a player like JOK would allow us to do just that.  THAT is my point. Thanks for trying to tell me what my point is though. 

Edmunds and Milano were both healthy vs the chiefs in the playoffs.  So was the entire D.  You can pretend that injuries are the reason that the chiefs dominated our D in both games, but that would just make you wrong.  Things need to change. 
 

my solution is to switch things up and not play straight nickel d 91% of the time.  
 

I’m not saying that this is the ONLY way to improve.  It’s a thought.  It’s a possibility. Y’all acting like I’m saying this is the only way to improve.  Stop being so closed minded

 

Edmunds is great.
 

You watched him.  Did you think he deserved to be in the pro bowl last year?  This will say a lot about our conversation 

Usually people put their point as the thread title, lol but.ok.   You decided to make 2 points I guess.  

 

Your "main" point is to mix up the defense and play more 4-3.  By adding an undersized, athletic "LB" to an already athletic duo.  Again, you are taking Taron Johnson off the field.  So that must be how you think we improve, is to replace him right?  I mean if I suggested we take a CB2, and someone says who comes off the field, it would be Wallace or Jackson, right?  And that would be my point to improve that on that player being on the field.  

 

Nickel, 4-3, hybrid I could careless what ppl label this defense.  Bottom line, last I checked 11 players are allowed on defense, so if you want JOK so badly then Taron comes off the field.  I'm gonna disagree with you, when you think that improves our defense.

 

Taron isn't the problem, I mean he only had a pick 6 in two pivotal games.  It would be nice to have some depth behind him, but I'm not spending a 1st rounder to solve that.  

 

What would be nice? How about a CB2, outside corner, that we could trust to lock down his man.  Or a def lineman, 1tech 3 tech or end, that could create some pressure/shut down the run. 

 

JOK is like buying a big screen for the living room, while the basement floods.  Fix what we need to fix, and that's not a WLB

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

No.  My point is that we need to switch up our defense.  Adding a player like JOK would allow us to do just that.  THAT is my point. Thanks for trying to tell me what my point is though. 

Edmunds and Milano were both healthy vs the chiefs in the playoffs.  So was the entire D.  You can pretend that injuries are the reason that the chiefs dominated our D in both games, but that would just make you wrong.  Things need to change. 
 

my solution is to switch things up and not play straight nickel d 91% of the time.  
 

I’m not saying that this is the ONLY way to improve.  It’s a thought.  It’s a possibility. Y’all acting like I’m saying this is the only way to improve.  Stop being so closed minded

 

Edmunds is great.
 

You watched him.  Did you think he deserved to be in the pro bowl last year?  This will say a lot about our conversation 

 

If I said "yes", what will it say about our conversation?  What does it say about the players, coaches and other fans who voted for him?

 

I don't break down the film because I don't have film....I also can't break down MLB position.  You don't either.

 I rely on people here who know more about the X's and O's than I do but also know they are watching it on broadcast view.  This is their opinion on what they see.  But just like Eric Wood stated, it's hard to grade players on film when you don't know the play call or the assignments.  You might think its that persons fault but it actually wasn't.  He gave examples with him.

Gilmore anyone?  He was the most criticized player on the defense when he was here.  He goes to NE and 2 years later wins the MVP.

 

Again, McDermott isn't afraid to make a change.  He's done it a lot.  They are keeping Edmunds out there, they aren't moving him to OLB like a lot of people on here suggest.   They haven't tried to replace him or taken him off the field...he's there nearly 100% of the time.  

Actions speak and what are the actions saying?

 

Am I allowed to have my own stance?

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

Oh my bad, Lavonte David isn’t good in coverage.  Edmunds is just as good..... yeah.  Ok.  You act as if upgrading our pass D isn’t necessary.....or you’re just nitpicking by using selective stats.  
 

Lavonte David is much better than Edmunds in coverage.  He is.  It’s true.

 

 

 

They blew it if their plan was to put together a dominant pass rush.  Doesn’t seem like that was their plan. 
 

pass rush may have been TBDs “plan A”, but it wasn’t OBDs.  We’ll see how they plan to get this defense and offense back on top.  Still lots of time in this offseason 

But, stats.

 

Look - I am sorry @NewEra but you have been getting owned and your responses have been all over the place.

 

You tell us all how great David is in coverage and how bad Edmunds and Milano are, but the numbers show overall they LBs were targeted nearly evenly, gave up an average of 0.3 more catches to TEs per game or 4 more catches by TEs over the course of a season.  the Bills gave up 2 yards per game more than the Bucs on average per game and the Bills gave up 1 TD less to the TE than the Bucs did  during the regular season.

 

Did Edmunds struggle this year - Yes!  Is David a better coverage LB - Yes!  Were the Bills duo of Edmunds and Milano part of the 2018 and 2019 defenses that were tops against TEs and in 2018 did not give up a TD to a TE - Yes!  They have coverage ability as has been shown - they also both struggled in a very weird year.

 

Your response that you watched it and know - is only an opinion.  What I know is overall neither team did a good job of covering TEs.  For Tampa a lot of the struggle was Devin White - he is great around the line, but the numbers back up he struggled in the passing game.  Tampa also got better as the DLine started putting pressure on QBs - that in turn helps immensely with coverage.  
 

Watching Clips - you can see Edmunds (even in the AFCCG drop into his spot - if the pressure that Tampa had was happening - Kelce is covered, but Mahomes (and Rivers before him) had time - they freeze the LB with their eyes and allow the TE to find open space for catches. If Edmunds tries to follow the TE - it opens a spot up for a WR in his vacated area. The same thing happened to David in the Super Bowl.
 

Plus go back and watch the Super Bowl - Kelce’s numbers were down, but he had at least 3 big time drops where he was open with David no place around him.  The difference was the pressure turned Mahomes perfect throws into a throw that was a bit off and Kelce was a bit off all game.  If he makes those “Knox” style drops as catches his numbers in the Super Bowl are closer to the AFCCG (maybe better in the end) - he didn’t make them - not because of David, but because of the pressure on Mahomes.

 

I will say once again - If JOK is there at 30 or you have to jump to 27-28 with a 5th rd pick - I am happy with that.  I am not giving up 2 additional 3rd round picks for him.  I also think you over value what he would bring - the Bills play 90% nickel and I am not sure adding JOK changes that significantly.  They play nickel because they do not want to get beat deep and are less afraid of teams running the ball than throwing it over the top.  They invite teams to try and drive the ball methodically down the field.
 

I get that you want them to change up and become a different defensive team, but I think McD is happy with that style and has been successful over his career with that defense.  I could see JOK allowing more standard 4-3 alignments in 2022, but as a rookie I think he would be very limited to spot duty as is typical of how the team works rookies in.

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Look - I am sorry @NewEra but you have been getting owned and your responses have been all over the place.

 

You tell us all how great David is in coverage and how bad Edmunds and Milano are, but the numbers show overall they LBs were targeted nearly evenly, gave up an average of 0.3 more catches to TEs per game or 4 more catches by TEs over the course of a season.  the Bills gave up 2 yards per game more than the Bucs on average per game and the Bills gave up 1 TD less to the TE than the Bucs did  during the regular season.

 

Did Edmunds struggle this year - Yes!  Is David a better coverage LB - Yes!  Were the Bills duo of Edmunds and Milano part of the 2018 and 2019 defenses that were tops against TEs and in 2018 did not give up a TD to a TE - Yes!  They have coverage ability as has been shown - they also both struggled in a very weird year.

 

Your response that you watched it and know - is only an opinion.  What I know is overall neither team did a good job of covering TEs.  For Tampa a lot of the struggle was Devin White - he is great around the line, but the numbers back up he struggled in the passing game.  Tampa also got better as the DLine started putting pressure on QBs - that in turn helps immensely with coverage.  
 

Watching Clips - you can see Edmunds (even in the AFCCG drop into his spot - if the pressure that Tampa had was happening - Kelce is covered, but Mahomes (and Rivers before him) had time - they freeze the LB with their eyes and allow the TE to find open space for catches. If Edmunds tries to follow the TE - it opens a spot up for a WR in his vacated area. The same thing happened to David in the Super Bowl.
 

Plus go back and watch the Super Bowl - Kelce’s numbers were down, but he had at least 3 big time drops where he was open with David no place around him.  The difference was the pressure turned Mahomes perfect throws into a throw that was a bit off and Kelce was a bit off all game.  If he makes those “Knox” style drops as catches his numbers in the Super Bowl are closer to the AFCCG (maybe better in the end) - he didn’t make them - not because of David, but because of the pressure on Mahomes.

 

I will say once again - If JOK is there at 30 or you have to jump to 27-28 with a 5th rd pick - I am happy with that.  I am not giving up 2 additional 3rd round picks for him.  I also think you over value what he would bring - the Bills play 90% nickel and I am not sure adding JOK changes that significantly.  They play nickel because they do not want to get beat deep and are less afraid of teams running the ball than throwing it over the top.  They invite teams to try and drive the ball methodically down the field.
 

I get that you want them to change up and become a different defensive team, but I think McD is happy with that style and has been successful over his career with that defense.  I could see JOK allowing more standard 4-3 alignments in 2022, but as a rookie I think he would be very limited to spot duty as is typical of how the team works rookies in.

Cool

[NewEra]

21 hours ago, NewEra said:

I haven’t watched any of his full games.  Strictly highlights and some casual watching during his career. His cover skills look legit.  To those in the know, how is his discipline?  Is he easily baited by QBs eyes and play action?  If he can be what we thought Edmunds might be, a TE stopper, we should trade up and snag him. He’s a Jack of all trades and exactly what this D needs.  It’s a rare skill set and he could be a superstar of used correctly. We could use someone to cover Kelce and possibly Pitts if he goes to Miami,  
 

thoughts?  Worth trading up for?

 

37 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Usually people put their point as the thread title, lol but.ok.   You decided to make 2 points I guess.  

 

Your "main" point is to mix up the defense and play more 4-3.  By adding an undersized, athletic "LB" to an already athletic duo.  Again, you are taking Taron Johnson off the field.  So that must be how you think we improve, is to replace him right?  I mean if I suggested we take a CB2, and someone says who comes off the field, it would be Wallace or Jackson, right?  And that would be my point to improve that on that player being on the field.  

 

Nickel, 4-3, hybrid I could careless what ppl label this defense.  Bottom line, last I checked 11 players are allowed on defense, so if you want JOK so badly then Taron comes off the field.  I'm gonna disagree with you, when you think that improves our defense.

 

Taron isn't the problem, I mean he only had a pick 6 in two pivotal games.  It would be nice to have some depth behind him, but I'm not spending a 1st rounder to solve that.  

 

What would be nice? How about a CB2, outside corner, that we could trust to lock down his man.  Or a def lineman, 1tech 3 tech or end, that could create some pressure/shut down the run. 

 

JOK is like buying a big screen for the living room, while the basement floods.  Fix what we need to fix, and that's not a WLB

 

 

I made this thread to gauge how the board felt about drafting JOK. I asked several questions regarding JOK.  I stated that I think he’s an elite talent and a Jack of all trade and that we we could really use a guy like him.  
 

that’s my opening post.  What, may I ask, is wrong about this post?  
 

As the thread continued, several posters brought up a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with my post.  They wanted to nitpick.  I defended my feeling regarding why I thought he would be a good addition while.  I answered other people’s questions......and you are now turning my answers into “my point in making this thread”.....while my point in making the thread......was to ask what the board thought about him and a possible trade up.  
 

read the title of the thread.  
 

i asked a question about JOK

 

the results:

people get mad

 

people tell me how Lavonte David wasn’t the main reason the Bucs shut down Kelce. 

people saying devin white isn’t good in coverage.

 

people telling me what my point of this post is.  
 

Hilarious 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by NewEra

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

Again your solution is we need to upgrade over Taron Johnson effectively, that is who you have coming off the field.  Don't agree that's worth our 1st rounder.  

 

You've been talking circles this entire thread.  First that we should be finding our own Lavonte David, newsflash we have that already (Milano).  Then that David is better than Edmunds in coverage, sure Davis is.  Different positions, and again, Milano is darn good at coverage.  

 

Then that we need to.put a "new wrinkle" into our defense, by essentially taking a 2nd Matt Milano.  

 

Our defense has been very good under McDermott, up until Milano and Edmunds both fought through injuries this past season.  Star opted out, and our DEs underperformed.  Your solution is to find a 2nd Wlb, cool...but no thanks.

I think you could draft someone like Zaven Collins....OLB Tulsa.  He would be our Lorax where on 3rd down, he rushes the passer and take our 1 tech off the field.  Taron Johnson stays on the field.

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I think you could draft someone like Zaven Collins....OLB Tulsa.  He would be our Lorax where on 3rd down, he rushes the passer and take our 1 tech off the field.  Taron Johnson stays on the field.

Yeah, that could work too.  There are several ways to win a football game.  Teams can win by not playing nickel on every play too.  Let’s just not act like taron Johnson is a game breaking talent and needs to be on the field 91% of the plays 

 

 

[muppy]

I would live to see this guy in a Bills uniform its been ages since the Bills had any Golden Domers on the roster but the trade scenario I thought was too rich an expenditure in draft capitol so I voted No.

[thunderingsquid]

Any NFL prospects named larb?