New Pope!

[John Adams]

And the wine point is silly...it's always been known to be SYMBOLIC. Jesus didn't actually cut his wrists and drain his blood into a goblet. He said drink this wine, it's my blood and I don't see how anyone else could take any other way than symbolically.

309435[/snapback]

 

You won't get disagreement from me, but you are wrong as far as Catholics go. The word tossed about before was "transfiguration," which is not right. The correct term is transubstantiation, and it is Catholic dogma.

 

From Wiki's transubstantiation definition:

 

In the twentieth-century, some modernist Roman Catholic theologians sought to interpret transubstantiation as only a change of meaning and not a change of substance. This was again rejected by Pope Paul VI in 1965. His 1968 "Credo of the People of God," reiterated that any theological explanation of the doctrine must hold to the two-fold claim that after consecration (1) Christ's body and blood are really present and (2) bread and wine are really absent, and this presence and absence is real and not merely something in the mind of the believer, a reiteration of conciliar dogma of the 12th Century.

 

In contrast to the Roman Catholic view, many Protestant churches hold that Holy Communion merely symbolically commemorates or memorializes Jesus' Last Supper with the disciples; this belief is known as "symbolism," "commemoration," or "transignification." Some fundamentalist Protestants, see any doctrine of the real presence as idolatry, worshipping mere bread and wine as if it were God.

 

Other Protestant sects profess belief in the real presence, but offer other explanations than transubstantiation...

[plenzmd1]

You should have clicked on a link at the bottom, which tried to put the 'infallibility' issue into plain english..

 

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Issues/Papal-I...allibility.html

...

 

And the wine point is silly...it's always been known to be SYMBOLIC. Jesus didn't actually cut his wrists and drain his blood into a goblet. He said drink this wine, it's my blood and I don't see how anyone else could take any other way than symbolically.

309435[/snapback]

The Catholic doctrine of "transubstantiation"(not transfiguration) does mean that the wine and bread do become the literal body and blood of Christ. And this is absolutely the Ctaholic belief

[kota]

Both my parents grew up in Communist Poland. My mom's parents grew up under Nazi rule. My Dad's parent's under Stalin's rule.

 

Do you know how much of those teachings they took with them and eventually passed on to me? ZERO

309437[/snapback]

 

Did your parents sigh up for the Nazi youth. Did they wear their fancy uniforms and say "Hail Hitler"?

 

This guy denies much involvement with them and that he didn't share their beliefs. Of course that is the general phrase nowadays since Germany lost the war.

[Gavin in Va Beach]

The Catholic doctrine of "transubstantiation"(not transfiguration) does mean that the wine and bread do become the literal body and blood of Christ. And this is absolutely the Ctaholic belief

309460[/snapback]

 

Huh, this lapsed Catholic has heard of the 'transubstantiation' theory but still always thought it was symbolic, not literal. You and John Adams have the goods. Just one of the little things I find silly about Catholicism (not that I'm advocating they change) and probably part of the reason I'm having a hard time finding my way back. The Catholics back in the day probably wanted some hoodoo voodoo to help keep the ignorant masses believing I guess.

[John Adams]

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have soooooo many literal jackasses with us today.

 

You go to Church to pray to God, you practice Catholicism because you believe in God. Period, end of story.

 

Popes, Priests, Deacons and even alter boys all work for God. They are and shouldn't be the reason you are Catholic.

 

So let me ask you John Adams, do you not consider yourself American because you don't like George W. Bush?

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Good comparison. Except for the fact that the American democrtatic system allows for, accepts, and encourages dissent. Are birth control, divorce, and (egads!) masturbation currently up for a vote in the Catholic Church? The Church is inflexible- for good reason- but to compare it to the American electoral system is absurd. Did you not just see a hundred men file in to determine the Pope? Not exactly Democracy in action, Jack. Try another analogy.

 

And if your belief is so simplistic that "you practice Catholicism because you believe in God," you understand little about your own faith.

[PTS]

Did your parents sigh up for the Nazi youth.  Did they wear their fancy uniforms and say "Hail Hitler"? 

 

This guy denies much involvement with them and that he didn't share their beliefs.  Of course that is the general phrase nowadays since Germany lost the war.

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When you're told to do something or face the consequences (i.e. concentration camps), you go along with the flow.

[todd]

Wow, really well said.

309449[/snapback]

 

Well said, but wrong (IMHO). Rome, Greece, and Egypt are all what I would call winning cultures. They all had bigamy, accepted homosexuality, and didn't have laws such as the catholic church does. I understand what he's trying to say, and I agree that a moral and upstanding culture is important, but historically he's incorrect.

[PTS]

Good comparison. Except for the fact that the American democrtatic system allows for, accepts, and encourages dissent. Are birth control, divorce, and (egads!) masturbation currently up for a vote in the Catholic Church? The Church is inflexible- for good reason- but to compare it to the American electoral system is absurd. Did you not just see a hundred men file in to determine the Pope? Not exactly Democracy in action, Jack. Try another analogy.

 

And if your belief is so simplistic that "you practice Catholicism because you believe in God," you understand little about your own faith.

309471[/snapback]

You're right, you win. I know nothing about Catholicism. I'm lucky I can even spell the word.

 

See you all in hell.

[stuckincincy]

So, praying at home is not a direct connection to God?

309442[/snapback]

 

 

Yes. But consider the importance of community in sharing thoughs, beliefs, fear of the unknown, etc., as well as in garnerning the strength to resist evil. We are naturally communal beings, rely upon one another, and have a need for that.

 

Those that wish ill have no impediment against forming gangs to express their will on others.

 

Personally believing in God doesn't mean living in an abstract la-la land hoping that those bent on hurt will halt, in awe of one's piety. That's a recipe for becoming fertilizer. The elimination of malefactors presents no problem of faith.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

I don't care.  he was a youth nazi and he had to have taken some of those teachings with him in life.

 

At least he is old and won't last long.

309434[/snapback]

 

Most ignorant post ever.

[John Adams]

Huh, this lapsed Catholic has heard of the 'transubstantiation' theory but still always thought it was symbolic, not literal. You and John Adams have the goods. Just one of the little things I find silly about Catholicism (not that I'm advocating they change) and probably part of the reason I'm having a hard time finding my way back. The Catholics back in the day probably wanted some hoodoo voodoo to help keep the ignorant masses believing I guess.

309466[/snapback]

 

Transubstantiation is one of the remnants of my Catholic school education that rattles around when I start talking to American Catholics. There can't be 5% of Catholic Americans who believe this fundamental belief.

[plenzmd1]

Huh, this lapsed Catholic has heard of the 'transubstantiation' theory but still always thought it was symbolic, not literal. You and John Adams have the goods. Just one of the little things I find silly about Catholicism (not that I'm advocating they change) and probably part of the reason I'm having a hard time finding my way back. The Catholics back in the day probably wanted some hoodoo voodoo to help keep the ignorant masses believing I guess.

309466[/snapback]

 

Do not know about the hoodoo voodoo comment, gueass that would make all religion the opiate it is proported to be.

 

However, quite a few catholic scholars have also debated this point. The theory is that Jesus performed a true transubstantiation when he changed the water into wine. However, in that instance, the water actually was changed into wine, and tasted and smelled like wine. This is not the case with the Holy Eucharist. It does not taste or smell of human bloos or human flesh. No way to argue this except to say that is my faith

[todd]

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Issues/Papal-I...allibility.html

Translation: Papal infallibility doesn't mean to the Pope should be viewed as a living God, but merely the last word on a subject so as to limit all the bloody bickering. Isn't a CEO the last word at his company? Couldn't be said that at corporations there is a doctrin of 'CEO infallibility'? And yet people get their knickers in a twist when something similary is applied to the leader of the Catholic Church...

 

And the wine point is silly...it's always been known to be SYMBOLIC. Jesus didn't actually cut his wrists and drain his blood into a goblet. He said drink this wine, it's my blood and I don't see how anyone else could take any other way than symbolically.

309435[/snapback]

 

The only problem with your papal infallibility analogy is that most CEOs don't claim to get their direction from god, just shareholders. And I still think it's twisted and wroing.

 

My point about wine is NOT silly. As a catholic, that's what you are supposed to believe. That it isn't wine - it's blood. I remember the last mass I went to. The priest did a whole sermon on it, and from that point on I didn't take communion or return to the church because I can't adhere to that. It's great if other catholics can (actually they should or else they shouldn't call themselves catholics) but I'm not down with that. So I left the church.

[todd]

Transubstantiation is one of the remnants of my Catholic school education that rattles around when I start talking to American Catholics. There can't be 5% of Catholic Americans who believe this fundamental belief.

309484[/snapback]

 

Which means they aren't really catholic. That and using birth control. If you do, how are you catholic? As far as the church is concerned, you are sinning. I ain't down with that. My wife and I both agree that birth control is da bomb.

[KRC]

Yes. But consider the importance of community in sharing thoughs, beliefs, fear of the unknown, etc., as well as in garnerning the strength to resist evil.  We are naturally communal beings, rely upon one another, and  have a need for that.

309482[/snapback]

 

Yes, it is a direct connection to God or yes, it is NOT a direct connection to God? Your answer seems a little vague in this regard.

 

I don't have a problem with groups worshiping together. I go to church and worship. I was addressing a specific point that Clutch made regarding the direct connection to God. I wonder if he is going to address my question?

[BRH]

When you're told to do something or face the consequences (i.e. concentration camps), you go along with the flow.

309473[/snapback]

Yes, much like Karel Wojtyla listened to the Nazis when he refused to help hide Jews from them.

 

Oh wait he didn't listen to them.

[spidey]

The Catholic doctrine is that the act of sex is directly connected to procreation. Any attempt to undermine that duality is deviant to the will of God. Hence, abortion, contraception, gay and lesbian relationships, etc, all fall under the banner of deviant practice. Since God sanctifies sex/procreation only within the bond of marriage, adultery and bigamy are out too.

 

This has been a formula for most winning religions/cultures through the millenia, since this also corresponds strongly with the evolutionary purpose of our DNA. Taking it up the pooper doesn't produce the next generation of the species. Running from bed to bed does not provide a proper environment for offspring. The Church might say it's the Word Of God that tells us this, but there also is much common sense which ties these doctrines to speci-societal survival.

 

You'll notice that, besides traditional Catholics (I'm sure Pope Benny would consider the so called liberal Catholics who support abortion/contraception/free-love/deviant sex to be in apostasy), the culture which most promotes values which tend to increase the "size of the herd" if you will, is Islam. Is it any wonder they're the fastest growing religion? They're popping out the most little suicide bombers. Don't worry, we'll make more, they say... and they do.

 

In the numbers game, Europe and Russia just aren't procreating fast enough to avoid being overtaken sometime in this century, and when the numbers finally tip you'll see the green flag flying over Paris, and Berlin, and Stockholm and Oslo too. A pope upholding the traditional doctrines, and the traditional 'self-evident truths' about the nature of the relationship between man and God, should not really be such a surprise. Those taking the long view can conjecture that this is what Armageddon and the survival of the Church and Christianity as we know it is all about. As Europe secularizes and welfarizes, it diminishes it's own culture while at the same time introducing the strain that will ultimately replace it.

 

That is, if you believe the theories of one Charles Darwin to be correct.

309424[/snapback]

So u are saying that the catholic doctrine prevents married couples from having sex unless its for procreation? So I guess if wife is post child bearing or had to have ovaries removed for medical purposes etc that any sex after is a sin? Hmm maybe thats why my parents go to confession so much

[kota]

Most ignorant post ever.

309483[/snapback]

 

How is it ignorant?

 

His father was anti-nazi but he somehow became a youth nazi. I fully understand that people were forced to do things or die. If that is the case i feel sorry for him but he shouldn't be the Pope because of it.

 

If your father beat your mother then you have a strong chance of becoming a wife beater yourself even tho as a kid you knew it wasn't right.

 

The same idea goes for the new Pope. He was a Nazi Youth. He had a front row seat to their teachings. He had Nazi Teachers. He sat in a classroom.

 

The Pope has a very visable black spot on his record. He shouldn't be the Pope because of it.

[spidey]

You won't get disagreement from me, but you are wrong as far as Catholics go. The word tossed about before was "transfiguration," which is not right. The correct term is transubstantiation, and it is Catholic dogma.

 

From Wiki's transubstantiation definition:

309456[/snapback]

Correct this is why in a presbyterian church I attend once in a while they serve grape juice not wine.

[spidey]

Since the church resists change/cannot change,I do have a few questions for the new Pope:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

 

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

 

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual 'uncleanness' - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

 

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

 

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

 

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

 

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

 

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

 

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

 

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

309496[/snapback]

I see you watch the West Wing when Bartlett grilled the conservative reverend!!!!!

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

So, praying at home is not a direct connection to God?

309442[/snapback]

 

From what I recall of Catholicism...yes and no. While "God hears all prayers", the unwashed masses may NOT speak directly to him, but must go through an official and ordained representative, i.e. a Catholic priest.

 

One of the reasons I left the church...it just struck me as funny that a bunch of old men were telling me that God's will was that I not talk to him except through them, and I was just supposed to take them at their word because God told them to tell me I should. Awful lot of circular logic there...

[todd]

So u are saying that the catholic doctrine prevents married couples from having sex unless its for procreation? 

309504[/snapback]

 

It would be funny if it wasn't true.

[/dev/null]

From what I recall of Catholicism...yes and no.  While "God hears all prayers", the unwashed masses may NOT speak directly to him, but must go through an official and ordained representative, i.e. a Catholic priest. 

309522[/snapback]

 

sounds like shopping for car insurance online vs going to an agent

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Yes, much like Karel Wojtyla listened to the Nazis when he refused to help hide Jews from them.

 

Oh wait he didn't listen to them. 

309500[/snapback]

 

Karel was a 21-year old man in occupied Poland. Ratzinger was a 14-year old boy in Germany. I think there's a significant difference between the two.

 

Or are you actually saying that a man and a boy with entirely different backgrounds should act identically?

[KRC]

From what I recall of Catholicism...yes and no.  While "God hears all prayers", the unwashed masses may NOT speak directly to him, but must go through an official and ordained representative, i.e. a Catholic priest. 

 

One of the reasons I left the church...it just struck me as funny that a bunch of old men were telling me that God's will was that I not talk to him except through them, and I was just supposed to take them at their word because God told them to tell me I should.  Awful lot of circular logic there...

309522[/snapback]

 

So, I shouldn't pray at home unless a priest is with me?

 

Yeah, nice lahjik there.

[plenzmd1]

. My wife and I both agree that birth control is da bomb.

309493[/snapback]

Well my wife does at least, although I am not always pleased by her method of birth control, which is abstinance

[stuckincincy]

Transubstantiation is one of the remnants of my Catholic school education that rattles around when I start talking to American Catholics. There can't be 5% of Catholic Americans who believe this fundamental belief.

309484[/snapback]

 

 

Er, I think that more than 5% of folks that attend Catholic churches take communion..

[CoachChuckDickerson]

How is it ignorant? 

 

His father was anti-nazi but he somehow became a youth nazi.  I fully understand that people were forced to do things or die.  If that is the case i feel sorry for him but he shouldn't be the Pope because of it. 

 

If your father beat your mother then you have a strong chance of becoming a wife beater yourself even tho as a kid you knew it wasn't right.

 

The same idea goes for the new Pope.  He was a Nazi Youth. He had a front row seat to their teachings.  He had Nazi Teachers.  He sat in a classroom.

 

The Pope has a very visable black spot on his record.  He shouldn't be the Pope because of it.

309514[/snapback]

 

I take back my comment I made about your first post. THIS is the most ignorant post ever.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

So, I shouldn't pray at home unless a priest is with me?   

 

Yeah, nice lahjik there.

309529[/snapback]

 

Only if you're Catholic.

 

Like I said, it's one of those little itty-bitty problems (along with the whole "Jews are evil and must be destroyed" speech my priest gave us one Sunday that didn't quite reconcile with the whole historical "Jesus was a Jew" datum) that caused me to leave the church. And yeah...I know "It's just one priest that said that"...but hey, if the Vatican wants me to believe he's a direct conduit to God...

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I take back my comment I made about your first post. THIS is the most ignorant post ever.

309533[/snapback]

 

"He had Nazi teachers, therefore he's a Nazi."

 

Well, golly...I had a teacher who was a card-carrying Communist in high school. I also had one that was gay and one that was institutionalized with mental illness.

 

I guess that makes me a gay communist schizophrenic.

 

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

So, I shouldn't pray at home unless a priest is with me?   

 

Yeah, nice lahjik there.

309529[/snapback]

 

I should caveat that by saying that it's been nearly 20 years, and I could have been misinformed on the Church's teachings.

 

Still...if I was being taught those teachings by the direct representatives of God, how'd they get it wrong?

[KevinVT]

http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/05...hive.asp#061050

 

I am not Catholic but have had similar talks with friends. If you are not on the bus, get off! Why should the church change? If it becomes outdated, so be it, something else will replace it. It should not just change with the times, it is what it is, if you don't like it leave.

 

This Nazi reference is ridiculous, ask the Jews. He did more to mend fences with the Jews than most in the church.

 

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pag...3D1113704370906

[/dev/null]

I guess that makes me a gay communist schizophrenic. 

309543[/snapback]

 

with those credentials you could get a correspondants job at CBS

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

with those credentials you could get a correspondants job at CBS

309556[/snapback]

 

Nah. I'm a crap throwing monkey. FoxSnooze is more my fit...

[John Adams]

Er, I think that more than 5% of folks that attend Catholic churches take communion..

309531[/snapback]

 

I agree. And I bet that the high percentage of those who take communion don't believe that they are consuming the actual body and blood of Jesus. Do you agree?

 

I know a lot of Catholics, and not one of them buys transubstantiation. When Fr. Jack brought it up in high school, he was laughed out of the room. He couldn't even convince a room full of Catholic teens to believe in transubstantiation. (He REALLY coudn't sell that masturbation was a sin, but we were wary to laugh- what with our teenage insecurities and all.)

[jad1]

with those credentials you could get a correspondants job at CBS

309556[/snapback]

 

Or it can get you a White House press pass.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I agree. And I bet that the high percentage of those who take communion don't believe that they are consuming the actual body and blood of Jesus. Do you agree?

309562[/snapback]

 

"Actual" or not, it's hard to get around the priest saying to you "The body and blood of Christ" and responding "Amen" and accepting the Host (as I recall the ritual) not being symbolic ritual cannibalism.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that (it's certainly more palatable than non-symbolic cannibalism). But it is what it is...

[Arkady Renko]

Nah.  I'm a crap throwing monkey.  FoxSnooze is more my fit...

309561[/snapback]

 

Can thousands of crap throwing monkeys typing eventually produce a publishable paper?

[stuckincincy]

I should caveat that by saying that it's been nearly 20 years, and I could have been misinformed on the Church's teachings.

 

Still...if I was being taught those teachings by the direct representatives of God, how'd they get it wrong? 

309549[/snapback]

 

Don't mistake the works of men, with all their warts, with the Church. If some man said that the Catholic Church was the "direct representative of God", they were in error. Understand the fallibility of Man...CEO's of major corprations these days are filled with hubris and self-importance, these folks that we fawn over be they in entertainment or in sports often disappoint us.

 

The late Pope never claimed to be anything but a humble servant of our good Lord. Never.

 

Don't be prejudicial of this new Pope.

 

Wait and see.

 

I've typed in several statements in this thread. I am not a member of the Catholic Church. But I recognize that the good imparted around the globe far surpasses the bad.

 

Think for a moment if that Church and it's bretheren were no more...what a loss to humanity, let alone to faith.

 

Remember Pope John Paul II, and look for the good in the new Pope.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Can thousands of crap throwing monkeys typing eventually produce a publishable paper?

309573[/snapback]

 

Clearly, you've never been a graduate student...