Thurman#1 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, SoTier said: Well, being named a "starter" on a team that doesn't have a competent starter at that position isn't quite the same as being named the starter over a competent veteran who could be starter on most teams in the league. Stephon Gilmore was gone before Tre White was drafted. Cordy Glenn was injured in 2017 and then traded away in 2018, and when Dion Dawkins didn't have Richie Incognito helping him out in 2018, he sucked. In 2018 Allen, Edmunds, and Teller had absolutely no viable competition to beat out, and in Allen's case, the Bills brain trust of McDermott and Beane made sure of that by trading away Taylor before the draft and McCarron before the regular while keeping Peterman on the roster. I understood you perfectly. You claimed that the Bills lacked talent before the arrival of McDermott and Beane, and that's simply untrue. They had talent but chose to get rid of it rather than build on the foundation that they had. So, the absence of Gilmore, Woods, Goodwin, Watkins, Brown, Glenn, Taylor, Dareus, etc and all the others are very much in play in any discussion of the McDermott-Beane regime. Talent recognition is the major function of any team's GM or HC/GM combo, and at best, McDermott and Beane have done a mediocre job at best. They shed good talent for nothing or next to nothing. They have overpaid and/or totally missed on poor talent like Jones and Peterman. They gamble on projects and apparently think that hard work and practice can somehow turn poor players into good ones when the talent simply isn't there. If White beat out Gilmore for the starting job, THAT would be an accomplishment. Beating out air ain't nothing to brag about. If Dawkins beat out a healthy Glenn, then he's the real deal. Beating air ain't nothing. Allen beating out Taylor would be a big deal -- that's exactly what Mayfield did in Cleveland -- but beating out Nate Peterman is less than nothing. Nah. That argument simply doesn't work. Did they have talent before the arrival of McDermott and Beane? You're right, they did. Enough to get them to 7-9, and 8-8 the year before that. Yahoo-ee and yippee-ki-yay. No, they weren't absolutely bereft of talent. But they also had a bunch of holes, no QB and the kind of cap situation generally held by teams trying to milk a year or two more out of a franchise QB's dotage and a closing window. And your argument that it's a GM's duty to recognize talent is very reasonable. But the idea that it's a GM's duty to keep the talent at all costs is utter and complete crap. The GM's duty is to do what he told the owner he would do when the owner hired him. McDermott and Beane have been very consistent in letting everyone know what they promised the Pegulas. They promised them that they would get the Bills to a place where they would consistently be among the best in the league and would regularly compete for championships. They did NOT promise to win that year. Or the next. They did a near-complete rebuild. This was a choice, but it was frankly pretty obviously the correct choice. They were handed two massive handicaps. They had an awful cap situation and they had no franchise QB. Those two things together are generally death, unless you're lucky enough to be handed a team that went for one or two wins the year before and you now have the first or second draft pick. So they rebuilt. They promised the Pegulas they would completely fix the cap situation by the beginning of this season. That and the decision to rebuild meant they were in a situation where they were going to have to trade guys to accumulate draft capital to bring in a potential franchise QB and shed guys for cap reasons. You argue that they shed good talent for next to nothing. Nonsense. They shed it to be able to bring in Josh Allen, and luckily ended up with Edmunds as well. And they shed it to move money from the 2019 cap to the 2018 cap. This meant a ton of dead money in 2018 but also the cap freedom they are now enjoying this year and are carefully husbanding in a way that will allow them to have more freedom next year and for the foreseeable future. Clearing up that cap morass in two years was a huge and difficult task. And it required a lot of short-term pain. Edited March 22, 2019 by Thurman#1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 17 hours ago, John from Riverside said: I think where a lot of the debate comes in is when did Beane actually start shotcalling the draft picks Some ppl think it was 2 drafts ago and Whaley was just a maniquin Some ppl thing that 2 years ago it was Whaley's draft I would so...no matter what....the last 2 BILLS drafts have been excellent Well, those people who say that Beane was calling the Bills draft picks two years ago are batshit crazy. Seriously. I see that you're not saying that, John, but anyone who does is nuts. The core values of this group are integrity and character, hard work and the process. If Beane had been receiving a salary from Carolina and then using his work and the work of the Carolina scouts to help the Bills compete with Carolina while still employed by them ... that would have been not just scandalous and indeed criminal but would show stunningly bad character. It would be industrial espionage. It's the absolute opposite of what this regime is about. It would violate the process. Beane's process at that time should have been the process of improving the team he was working for. Didn't happen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joshin' Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Well, those people who say that Beane was calling the Bills draft picks two years ago are batshit crazy. Seriously. I see that you're not saying that, John, but anyone who does is nuts. The core values of this group are integrity and character, hard work and the process. If Beane had been receiving a salary from Carolina and then using his work and the work of the Carolina scouts to help the Bills compete with Carolina while still employed by them ... that would have been not just scandalous and indeed criminal but would show stunningly bad character. It would be industrial espionage. It's the absolute opposite of what this regime is about. It would violate the process. Beane's process at that time should have been the process of improving the team he was working for. Didn't happen!! I am not sure criminal but surely unethical. Such a person would never be hired again in the NFL. Beane is smart enough not to have done this but it makes for interesting posting material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 18 hours ago, blacklabel said: It ain't about his numbers, man. It's about the coaching and the supporting cast he has around him. Plus he sat and learned for a year behind Alex Smith. Then he steps into an offense coached by one of the smartest offensive minds ever, has Pro Bowl players at every skill position and a solid OL. Circumstances matter, that's all I'm saying. The circumstances in Buffalo would likely not have helped him reach the level of success he has in KC. So, you expect Josh Allen to become a great QB with a coaching staff and supporting staff that you don't think capable of doing the same with Patrick Mahomes who has already demonstrated extraordinary talent, ability, and leadership? I'm not dissing Allen, but the difference between Mahomes and Allen is similar to the difference between Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson ... both are great QBs but Luck's physical talent is simply better than Wilson's although so far Wilson has been more successful. Allen may become a great QB, too, but Mahomes' talent is extraordinary like Luck's. Even mediocre coaching and support can't hide that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 It's common knowledge that Beane was intricately involved in all of the 2017 picks excluding Zay Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted March 22, 2019 Share Posted March 22, 2019 56 minutes ago, SoTier said: So, you expect Josh Allen to become a great QB with a coaching staff and supporting staff that you don't think capable of doing the same with Patrick Mahomes who has already demonstrated extraordinary talent, ability, and leadership? I'm not dissing Allen, but the difference between Mahomes and Allen is similar to the difference between Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson ... both are great QBs but Luck's physical talent is simply better than Wilson's although so far Wilson has been more successful. Allen may become a great QB, too, but Mahomes' talent is extraordinary like Luck's. Even mediocre coaching and support can't hide that fact. Mahomes' physical talent is greater than Allen's? Umm...if you say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts