THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Bills Still Have A Lot to Work On

[Shaw66]

8 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Its refreshing to actually have a decent football discussion on this board.  I think they both could have done better but at least both made effort unlike the WR we just sent out of town.

Yeah.  I learn a lot about football when people are talking about the details and willing to change their opinion as the discussion progresses. 

 

There's a good discussion in another thread about whether Foster didn't run his route correctly on the deep ball.  

 

[Peace Frog]

This may not make sense to anyone but it makes sense to me: I put more of the blame for that final incomplete pass on Clay than I do Allen.  However, I'll be tougher on Allen because he is our future, Clay is not.  As far as the penalties, I partly blame McDermott but I hold the players themselves more responsible.  Part of that is rookie mistakes but the bigger part is sloppy veteran play.  

[LABILLBACKER]

Watch the whole game Shaw. The Foster overthrow was by 12 inches for a ball that traveled nearly 70 yards. Foster needs to stop tracking the ball way too early.  Clay's feet were just in quicksand. Charles will have plenty of opportunities with another team to drop passes. Did anyone on the planet realize a kid 6-5 and near 240 could outrun lbs like Barr & Alonso. I think not. Yes he's still young and will make mistakes but he's OURS! He's only going to improve.  Give him a better OL & receivers and God help the league. Not even Coleman or Hochuli could screw us.....

.

[The Poojer]

On the all-22, could you tell whether Allen had a clear path to run for the first down?  It seemed to me like he had a lot of space in front of him

 

19 hours ago, BillsRdue said:

I'm ok with it, other than Allen's last throw. Maybe he could have heaved it 5 more yards, but the throw was good enough. On the ALL-22 Clay plays it like a pop fly to center and waits waaaayyyy too long before making a break back to the ball. He wouldn't have even had to diver forward. He could have come back and ran into the catch. I put this on Clay 75/25. Allen was scrambling from pressure. Clay was taking a nap in center field.

[Shaw66]

52 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Watch the whole game Shaw. The Foster overthrow was by 12 inches for a ball that traveled nearly 70 yards. Foster needs to stop tracking the ball way too early.  Clay's feet were just in quicksand. Charles will have plenty of opportunities with another team to drop passes. Did anyone on the planet realize a kid 6-5 and near 240 could outrun lbs like Barr & Alonso. I think not. Yes he's still young and will make mistakes but he's OURS! He's only going to improve.  Give him a better OL & receivers and God help the league. Not even Coleman or Hochuli could screw us.....

.

Clay's feet are always in quicksand. He isn't a quick twitch player.  That's why the throw needed to be better I'd you want to win.  Your qb isn't throwing to a hypothetical player we would like to have.  He's throwing to real live player who has limitations. 

[Ayjent]

I didn't like the Allen draft pick.  I didn't like what they spent on getting him and I didn't think he was the right guy.  Right now I'm starting to feel a lot better about what they did.  The Mahomes thing will always haunt the Bills, but Allen is progressing and is looking a lot better.  His mobility is outstanding, and he is starting to sense the pressure and the outlets when it comes, although he is bailing on the pocket sometimes.  His throws have been better too, but he still isn't getting into a rhythm passing.   His two last throws in the Dolphins game were both good difficult throws, and I think the Bills should've gotten the benefit of a PI call on Zay, but the ref awarded the catch and that was overturned.  I think this happens sometimes - refs award one or the other, but not both because of the closeness of the call either way - I think it may have gotten a PI call if it was clearly incomplete.  Still a very good back shoulder throw that if he can continue to improve on as a go to throw - he will have a much better passing repertoire.  As for the Clay throw - no one is totally 100% culpable but Clay had a ton of time to adjust to a ball that traveled a really good distance - Clay didn't have to move much by NFL receiving target standards (that is an understatement).  Could Allen have put it on the money so that Clay didn't have to move hardly at all?  Sure.  Could Clay have made a better adjustment on the ball? Definitely and if he had he could have easily caught the ball and did a Nestea plunge or any other overdramatic time consuming theatrics to score.  He seems to be working on adding to his skill set and the progress is encouraging.

 

Allen would have better numbers if the receivers were more sure handed or better - there is no question about that.  They've got to get better there and Beane/McDermott have already churned and burned two of their biggest acquisitions at the position, and their highest draft pick at the position is playing well, but does not appear to be a No. 1.  Certainly a starter, but not a guy that is a marquee WR or even close to a No. 1.

 

I've got to say that I think having different receivers on the field is making an overall difference for the Offense as well - the passing game has simply looked better without Kelvin Benjamin on the field as much, and you know the players and coaches were sensing that as well.  He simply didn't want to be effective and fight enough for position on tight coverage throws, which is the only thing that made him a good target - we saw him play next level against Carolina in the preseason and unfortunately for him that set a bar for his skills that he never even cam close to again during this season.  I think he's done in this league, despite likely getting a few more chances.

 

Finally, the Offense around Allen is barren and aging - Clay, McCoy and Ivory have their best days behind them.  They need young legs at RB and TE to give Allen more support and options.  The line has been better than I thought, but that is not to say that they are even remotely good, but they aren't the absolute worst which is kind of remarkable.  The Offense really has nowhere to go but up and if Allen is showing promise under these circumstances there is a good chance for him to pan out - still a ways to go, but he can definitely play and he certainly looks like a leader that guys will follow.

[Shaw66]

26 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

I didn't like the Allen draft pick.  I didn't like what they spent on getting him and I didn't think he was the right guy.  Right now I'm starting to feel a lot better about what they did.  The Mahomes thing will always haunt the Bills, but Allen is progressing and is looking a lot better.  His mobility is outstanding, and he is starting to sense the pressure and the outlets when it comes, although he is bailing on the pocket sometimes.  His throws have been better too, but he still isn't getting into a rhythm passing.   His two last throws in the Dolphins game were both good difficult throws, and I think the Bills should've gotten the benefit of a PI call on Zay, but the ref awarded the catch and that was overturned.  I think this happens sometimes - refs award one or the other, but not both because of the closeness of the call either way - I think it may have gotten a PI call if it was clearly incomplete.  Still a very good back shoulder throw that if he can continue to improve on as a go to throw - he will have a much better passing repertoire.  As for the Clay throw - no one is totally 100% culpable but Clay had a ton of time to adjust to a ball that traveled a really good distance - Clay didn't have to move much by NFL receiving target standards (that is an understatement).  Could Allen have put it on the money so that Clay didn't have to move hardly at all?  Sure.  Could Clay have made a better adjustment on the ball? Definitely and if he had he could have easily caught the ball and did a Nestea plunge or any other overdramatic time consuming theatrics to score.  He seems to be working on adding to his skill set and the progress is encouraging.

 

Allen would have better numbers if the receivers were more sure handed or better - there is no question about that.  They've got to get better there and Beane/McDermott have already churned and burned two of their biggest acquisitions at the position, and their highest draft pick at the position is playing well, but does not appear to be a No. 1.  Certainly a starter, but not a guy that is a marquee WR or even close to a No. 1.

 

I've got to say that I think having different receivers on the field is making an overall difference for the Offense as well - the passing game has simply looked better without Kelvin Benjamin on the field as much, and you know the players and coaches were sensing that as well.  He simply didn't want to be effective and fight enough for position on tight coverage throws, which is the only thing that made him a good target - we saw him play next level against Carolina in the preseason and unfortunately for him that set a bar for his skills that he never even cam close to again during this season.  I think he's done in this league, despite likely getting a few more chances.

 

Finally, the Offense around Allen is barren and aging - Clay, McCoy and Ivory have their best days behind them.  They need young legs at RB and TE to give Allen more support and options.  The line has been better than I thought, but that is not to say that they are even remotely good, but they aren't the absolute worst which is kind of remarkable.  The Offense really has nowhere to go but up and if Allen is showing promise under these circumstances there is a good chance for him to pan out - still a ways to go, but he can definitely play and he certainly looks like a leader that guys will follow.

Love your stuff.  Thanks.

 

A couple of comments.

 

I said about 6 weeks ago that if Allen had reported to the Chiefs camp in June and Mahomes wasn't there, Allen would be having the success Mahomes is having.   Now, I know that's a bit of an overstatement, but really, what is it that Allen isn't doing that we'd like?   Not much.   Mahomes is scrambling and hitting wide open receivers.  Allen can do that.  

 

I agree about getting more speed on the field at the receiver position making a difference.  But I also think that Daboll is starting to hit his stride in terms of the modern NFL offense.   I think he has a QB who can deliver the ball, and he's seeing now how he can use the more modern route techniques if he has speed guys out there.   Let's face, the chances are that there isn't an all-pro receiver on the roster right now.   All-Pros are nice to have, but what's been needed is route design, quality route running by guys with some speed, and a QB who can deliver the ball.  We're starting to see all three.  

 

And pass protection.  It's important to remember that all of this goes together.   When the running game is working (albeit even if it's your QB running) it changes the pass rush.  When the pass rush changes, the pass protection gets easier.   The offensive line hasn't suddenly gotten good, although I'm sure they're improving as the season progresses.   jWhat's happened is the whole offense has gotten better, which tends to keep the defense a bit out of sync.  It feeds on itself.   

[Chandler#81]

14 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Its refreshing to actually have a decent football discussion on this board.  I think they both could have done better but at least both made effort unlike the WR we just sent out of town.

Yes it is. I hope everyone knows we Mods are doing our best to quash foolishness and invite decent football discussions.

We’re outnumbered, but we’re plucky.?

[formerlyofCtown]

29 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Yes it is. I hope everyone knows we Mods are doing our best to quash foolishness and invite decent football discussions.

We’re outnumbered, but we’re plucky.?

Ill avoid the discussion Id like to have with you.?

Some discussions belong in this area and some should be moved because they may provoke people and thats all Im gonna say.

Edited December 6, 2018 by formerlyofCtown

[Nihilarian]

What we all watched with Josh Allen this past week at Miami is almost exactly what you would have seen if you watched him in college at Wyoming in 2017. Just like in Buffalo Allen had a bad line, rookie receivers and not much of a run game. And yet because of his burning desire to win that Wyoming team went 8-5 and won their bowl game too.

 

Josh Allen didn't have a 1000 yard receiver like Josh Rosen throwing those short dump off passes. Nor did he have top talent all around him like some of the other QBs in last years draft. Allen was a project QB and wasn't ready to start out of the gate like some of the others. 

 

From what I see Allen went into one of the very worst situations a rookie QB could start in as he was supposed to sit, learn for a year like Patrick Mahomes did in KC. The kid didn't even have a veteran QB on the roster from the start of the season. His experienced QB mentor was Nathaniel Peterman with all his experience in starting 2 games in 2017. And his QB coach had never been a QB coach previously before Buffalo as he was a WR assistant coach. His OC didn't have a history of calling plays for winning NFL offenses and in fact was 23rd or worse in all his five years as an NFL OC. Not to mention that he has never developed a rookie QB in the NFL. 

 

Allen's record is currently 3-4 and I can only imagine what this kid could have done this season if he didn't need to overcome so much adversity. 

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

What we all watched with Josh Allen this past week at Miami is almost exactly what you would have seen if you watched him in college at Wyoming in 2017. Just like in Buffalo Allen had a bad line, rookie receivers and not much of a run game. And yet because of his burning desire to win that Wyoming team went 8-5 and won their bowl game too.

 

Josh Allen didn't have a 1000 yard receiver like Josh Rosen throwing those short dump off passes. Nor did he have top talent all around him like some of the other QBs in last years draft. Allen was a project QB and wasn't ready to start out of the gate like some of the others. 

 

From what I see Allen went into one of the very worst situations a rookie QB could start in as he was supposed to sit, learn for a year like Patrick Mahomes did in KC. The kid didn't even have a veteran QB on the roster from the start of the season. His experienced QB mentor was Nathaniel Peterman with all his experience in starting 2 games in 2017. And his QB coach had never been a QB coach previously before Buffalo as he was a WR assistant coach. His OC didn't have a history of calling plays for winning NFL offenses and in fact was 23rd or worse in all his five years as an NFL OC. Not to mention that he has never developed a rookie QB in the NFL. 

 

Allen's record is currently 3-4 and I can only imagine what this kid could have done this season if he didn't need to overcome so much adversity. 

 

 

 

 

That's a great perspective.  Thanks.