The Bills deliberately did not maximize their roster talent this year

[iinii]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The talent wasn't there.

 

We made the playoffs through a real accumulation of luck. The first bit of luck was an easy schedule (126-130 with most opponents from the weak AFC giving them their own weak schedules) The second bit of luck was that that schedule was made a ton easier by playing two of the good teams we played, KC and Atlanta, right in the middle of the only slumps of their season. Atlanta was in a three-game slump in a season where they never lost more than one game in a row elsewhere and that was made even worse by having Julio Jones injured and out of the Bills game. The Chiefs were in a four-game slump that you could argue was a seven-game slump with one win coming from beating an awful Denver team in the middle. But the biggest chunk of luck was making the playoffs with a 9-7 record. Most years 9-7 won't get you in but we were in a seriously weak AFC that year, and that was very lucky indeed.

 

Watkins has 453 yards in 8 games. In other words, he's on track for a season of 906 yards. While being thrown to by a QB who's playing lights out in an offense that doesn't let teams double Sammy easily. Three TDs. For $16 mill a year. So by average salary he's the 6th highest paid WR in the league and for that money his production is this: 453 yards (30th in the league) and 3 TDs (in a 24-way tie for 34th position, so he's in the top 58 in the league). And that's not a bad year for Sammy.

 

Glenn plays LT, a highly-paid position that we have filled. Woods was a great bargain for the Rams. Would've been great if we could've kept him. But teams in serious salary cap situations have to give up players they would like to keep, as do teams trying to put together enough draft capital in trades to be sure of bringing in a franchise QB.

Especially lucky after starting Peterman against the Chargers. The talent was better than this year. Oh I forgot rebuild! The problem is that they jettisoned virtually all the talent on the offensive side of the ball and opened with a rookie and Peterman. McBeane should just man up and say he doesn’t want to win. I go back to my original question, why did a defensive minded coach hang the offense out to dry? Could it be the same Gregg Williams/Rex Ryan hubris? Where they believe they are so good at one thing they can make up for deficiencies else where? And in the process damage their high asset they did all that wheeling and dealing for? The process sounds good but the execution seems flawed.

[klos63]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, our offense is awful. And our defense is good. McDermott and Beane put together both. Not just the offense. They put almost no resources into the offense outside of bringing in Allen. McDermott is a defensive coach, it wasn't a surprise to see them prioritize the D. They're likely to spend a lot more resources on the offense next year.

 

 

 

 

They're in Dorsey's second year, correct?

 

Yup, same very reasonable argument still holds. They're still very early in Dorsey's build.

 

 

 

Not that either team should be happy with recent history. But both fan bases can feel real hope for the future.

Not 'real' hope for the Bills - just hope. We are far from even being remotely competitive.

[Thurman#1]

On 10/30/2018 at 3:40 PM, iinii said:

Especially lucky after starting Peterman against the Chargers. The talent was better than this year. Oh I forgot rebuild! The problem is that they jettisoned virtually all the talent on the offensive side of the ball and opened with a rookie and Peterman. McBeane should just man up and say he doesn’t want to win. I go back to my original question, why did a defensive minded coach hang the offense out to dry? Could it be the same Gregg Williams/Rex Ryan hubris? Where they believe they are so good at one thing they can make up for deficiencies else where? And in the process damage their high asset they did all that wheeling and dealing for? The process sounds good but the execution seems flawed.

 

 

No, they didn't "jettison" the talent they lost on the offense. The majority of it was lost by career-ending neck injury and career-ending nutsoism, two of our three three above-average OLs last year, or above-average OLs who played more than five games before season-ending injury, anyway. They did trade away some talent for draft capital and cap relief, but outside of Robert Woods, none of that talent is proving impressive anyway.

 

And yes, you did forget the rebuild ... again. And you're still not getting what a rebuild is if you say McBeane doesn't want to win. They want to win. But their goal is long-term, not short-term. Deal with it, dude. Don't avoid thinking about it. They're sacrificing the short-term for the long-term. This is what a rebuild does. It actually annoyed many of us, me included, that he didn't do a complete rebuild. Instead he kept Tyrod, Kyle W, Incognito and a bunch of others in 2017 that he would have gotten rid of if he'd given up on winning and completely rebuilt. He instead gave them a chance to win, and in a crappy AFC and with a lot of luck from the schedule, they won nine games.

 

Is it hubris in the Rex Ryan mold? No, just the opposite. Rex was so smart and capable - in his own mind - a rebuild wasn't necessary. Sure he could win a title with Tyrod at QB, he thought. It's the reloaders who are full of hubris.

 

Why did a defensive minded coach hang the offense out to dry? Wrong question. Here's the right question ... The right question is, "Why did a defensive minded coach going into the second year of a rebuild with serious cap problems from the previous regime hang that year's offense out to dry, with the tremendous exception of bringing in a QB who may well be their future franchise QB if things work out?"

 

And the answer is in the question. He prioritized the defense. And he prioritized the long-term, which is what rebuilding teams do. He at least brought in a QB who could be the answer down the road. And the cap problems handcuffed him even further and losing Incognito and Wood pretty much drove the final nails into the coffin of the 2018 Bills offense.

 

Not the Bills offense. The 2018 Bills offense. And that's what a rebuild does. It guarantees suffering for a year or two for a greatly increased chance of success in the long term. Not a guarantee. This could fail, as could any personnel strategy. But it is the strategy that contains the greatest chance of long-term success.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Thurman#1

[billsfan714]

I wonder how much better our defense would be with a better offense.   How many more plays they are on the field, its a physical game and they will take a lot of punishment as a result of the ineptitude of the offense.    McClappy better come to that realization big time in 19.

[iinii]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, they didn't "jettison" the talent they lost on the offense. The majority of it was lost by career-ending neck injury and career-ending nutsoism, two of our three three above-average OLs last year, or above-average OLs who played more than five games before season-ending injury, anyway. They did trade away some talent for draft capital but outside of Robert Woods, none of that talent is proving impressive anyway.

 

And yes, you did forget the rebuild ... again. And you're still not getting what a rebuild is if you say McBeane doesn't want to win. They want to win. But their goal is long-term, not short-term. Deal with it, dude. Don't avoid thinking about it. They're sacrificing the short-term for the long-term. This is what a rebuild does. It actually annoyed many of us, me included, that he didn't do a complete rebuild. Instead he kept Tyrod, Kyle W, Incognito and a bunch of others in 2017 that he would have gotten rid of if he'd given up on winning and completely rebuilt. He instead gave them a chance to win, and in a crappy AFC and with a lot of luck from the schedule, they won nine games.

 

Is it hubris in the Rex Ryan mold? No, just the opposite. Rex was so smart and capable - in his own mind - a rebuild wasn't necessary. Sure he could win a title with Tyrod at QB, he thought. It's the reloaders who are full of hubris.

 

Why did a defensive minded coach hang the offense out to dry? Wrong question. Here's the right question ... The right question is, "Why did a defensive minded coach going into the second year of a rebuild with serious cap problems from the previous regime hang that year's offense out to dry, with the tremendous exception of bringing in a QB who may well be their future franchise QB if things work out?"

 

And the answer is in the question. He prioritized the defense. And he prioritized the long-term, which is what rebuilding teams do. He at least brought in a QB who could be the answer down the road. And the cap problems handcuffed him even further and losing Incognito and Wood pretty much drove the final nails into the coffin of the 2018 Bills offense.

 

Not the Bills offense. The 2018 Bills offense. And that's what a rebuild does. It guarantees suffering for a year or two for a greatly increased chance of success in the long term. Not a guarantee. This could fail, as could any personnel strategy. But it is the strategy that contains the greatest chance of long-term success.

You left out in your opinion. There are too many ifs and too much conjecture in your soliloquy. Kool-aid must taste good....

[Thurman#1]

19 minutes ago, iinii said:

You left out in your opinion. There are too many ifs and too much conjecture in your soliloquy. Kool-aid must taste good....

 

 

Can't even come up with one word of factual or logical support for your position, hunh?

 

Which I understand. There really isn't much to be said for it, but not one word? The meaning of that is pretty clear.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Thurman#1

[iinii]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Can't even come up with one word of factual or logical support for your position, hunh?

 

Which I understand. There really isn't much to be said for it, but not one word? The meaning of that is pretty clear.

McBeane traded Watkins, Woods, and Glenn, correct? What is the general consensus on biggest need? WR, OL?

5 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Can't even come up with one word of factual or logical support for your position, hunh?

 

Which I understand. There really isn't much to be said for it, but not one word? The meaning of that is pretty clear.

Belichick’s reloading hubris seems to be just fine.

[Thurman#1]

18 hours ago, klos63 said:

Not 'real' hope for the Bills - just hope. We are far from even being remotely competitive.

 

 

Of course it's real hope for the Bills. You don't have to be competitive this year if you're building in the manner that has the highest chance of being successful. And they are. They've at least showed they're canny.

 

I don't even agree that we're not competitive. We've beaten two good teams this year and the Pats game was still competitive late.

 

Good? No. Fair enough. But yeah, there's real hope with that defense moving forward and the terrific cap shape we're in starting next year.

[iinii]

7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Can't even come up with one word of factual or logical support for your position, hunh?

 

Which I understand. There really isn't much to be said for it, but not one word? The meaning of that is pretty clear.

While we are on the subject. Do really think Daboll is the right coach for Allen? What has he done in the NFL? Daboll doesn’t count against the cap.  

Pete Carroll just reloaded too and has his team in the hunt. 

32 minutes ago, iinii said:

You left out in your opinion. There are too many ifs and too much conjecture in your soliloquy. Kool-aid must taste good....

 

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, they didn't "jettison" the talent they lost on the offense. The majority of it was lost by career-ending neck injury and career-ending nutsoism, two of our three three above-average OLs last year, or above-average OLs who played more than five games before season-ending injury, anyway. They did trade away some talent for draft capital and cap relief, but outside of Robert Woods, none of that talent is proving impressive anyway.

 

And yes, you did forget the rebuild ... again. And you're still not getting what a rebuild is if you say McBeane doesn't want to win. They want to win. But their goal is long-term, not short-term. Deal with it, dude. Don't avoid thinking about it. They're sacrificing the short-term for the long-term. This is what a rebuild does. It actually annoyed many of us, me included, that he didn't do a complete rebuild. Instead he kept Tyrod, Kyle W, Incognito and a bunch of others in 2017 that he would have gotten rid of if he'd given up on winning and completely rebuilt. He instead gave them a chance to win, and in a crappy AFC and with a lot of luck from the schedule, they won nine games.

 

Is it hubris in the Rex Ryan mold? No, just the opposite. Rex was so smart and capable - in his own mind - a rebuild wasn't necessary. Sure he could win a title with Tyrod at QB, he thought. It's the reloaders who are full of hubris.

 

Why did a defensive minded coach hang the offense out to dry? Wrong question. Here's the right question ... The right question is, "Why did a defensive minded coach going into the second year of a rebuild with serious cap problems from the previous regime hang that year's offense out to dry, with the tremendous exception of bringing in a QB who may well be their future franchise QB if things work out?"

 

And the answer is in the question. He prioritized the defense. And he prioritized the long-term, which is what rebuilding teams do. He at least brought in a QB who could be the answer down the road. And the cap problems handcuffed him even further and losing Incognito and Wood pretty much drove the final nails into the coffin of the 2018 Bills offense.

 

Not the Bills offense. The 2018 Bills offense. And that's what a rebuild does. It guarantees suffering for a year or two for a greatly increased chance of success in the long term. Not a guarantee. This could fail, as could any personnel strategy. But it is the strategy that contains the greatest chance of long-term success.

“Tremendous exception ....QB who MAY work out......IF things go their way.” That isn’t conjecture? 

 

[Thurman#1]

25 minutes ago, iinii said:

McBeane traded Watkins, Woods, and Glenn, correct? What is the general consensus on biggest need? WR, OL?

 

 

Nope. You've made it extremely clear that you don't get this, but our biggest need is time. When you're in the second year of a rebuild, you're going to suck.

 

We've got an LT, a good one.

 

And Watkins has been paid for potential his entire career. Sammy is the 6th highest paid WR in the league by average salary, and yet being thrown to by probably the hottest QB in the league he's managed to put together 456 yards (31st in the league) and three TDs (a 24-way tie for 34th in the league, which puts him in the top 55 in the league!!! Wow!!!) in eight games. That's about as far from a bargain as you can get.

 

If we had Sammy, the big result would be that we would be in considerably worse cap shape and would suck ever so slightly and marginally less.

 

I'd love to have Woods, but teams fighting their way out of cap trouble are going to have to cut guys they'd rather keep. That's life in the NFL.

 

25 minutes ago, iinii said:

 

Belichick’s reloading hubris seems to be just fine.

 

I'm sure that someone, perhaps Freud or Einstein, could find some meaning in this. I can't.

 

Belichick hasn't reloaded since Cleveland (why would you with Brady and a record of terrific seasons) and doesn't have hubris. I guess he's fine, though. So, there's that to what you say.

 

 

16 minutes ago, iinii said:

While we are on the subject. Do really think Daboll is the right coach for Allen? What has he done in the NFL? Daboll doesn’t count against the cap.  

Pete Carroll just reloaded too and has his team in the hunt. 

 

“Tremendous exception ....QB who MAY work out......IF things go their way.” That isn’t conjecture? 

 

 

 

Dude, first, you weren't on the subject. You tossed off a stupid remark about opinions and conjecture and Kool-Aid, having nothing to do with Daboll or even football. Not an ounce of actual content and certainly nothing about Daboll.

 

Do I think Daboll is the right coach for Allen? Don't know. Nobody out here does, really. The guys who do are in the meeting rooms. They have a far better idea of whether it's bad play-calling or play-calling that would have worked with decent execution. I get the feeling that he has to go, though. Knee-jerk searches for scapegoats feel much better than just buttoning it up and going through the inevitable pain of rebuild.

 

Conjecture? Um, yeah. You too. Anyone making a guess at the future is using conjecture.

 

And no, Pete Carroll reloaded. What he did is absolutely nothing like a complete rebuild.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Thurman#1

[cd1]

I would buy this whole "rebuild" ***** accept...

 

McBeane has proved to be a TERRIBLE judge of offensive personnel.

 

Other than Allen (still up in the air), who have they added to improve, in any way, the OFFENSE?

 

Kelvin Benjamin? Mike Tolbert?  Cory Coleman? Jeremy Kerley?  Anquan Boldin?  AJ McCarron? There are more...

 

If they have 100 picks and Million$ of dollar$ in cap space it MATTERS NOT if they are poor judges of offensive skills.

 

They will just be adding to the trash pile of also rans!

[iinii]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

Nope. You've made it extremely clear that you don't get this, but our biggest need is time. When you're in the second year of a rebuild, you're going to suck.

 

We've got an LT, a good one.

 

And Watkins has been paid for potential his entire career. Sammy is the 6th highest paid WR in the league by average salary, and yet being thrown to by probably the hottest QB in the league he's managed to put together 456 yards (31st in the league) and three TDs (a 24-way tie for 34th in the league, which puts him in the top 55 in the league!!! Wow!!!) in eight games. That's about as far from a bargain as you can get.

 

If we had Sammy, the big result would be that we would be in considerably worse cap shape and would suck ever so slightly and marginally less.

 

I'd love to have Woods, but teams fighting their way out of cap trouble are going to have to cut guys they'd rather keep. That's life in the NFL.

 

 

I'm sure that someone, perhaps Freud or Einstein, could find some meaning in this. I can't.

 

Belichick hasn't reloaded since Cleveland (why would you with Brady and a record of terrific seasons) and doesn't have hubris. I guess he's fine, though. So, there's that to what you say.

 

 

 

 

Dude, first, you weren't on the subject. You tossed off a stupid remark about opinions and conjecture and Kool-Aid, having nothing to do with Daboll or even football. Not an ounce of actual content and certainly nothing about Daboll.

 

Do I think Daboll is the right coach for Allen? Don't know. Nobody out here does, really. The guys who do are in the meeting rooms. They have a far better idea of whether it's bad play-calling or play-calling that would have worked with decent execution. I get the feeling that he has to go, though. Knee-jerk searches for scapegoats feel much better than just buttoning it up and going through the inevitable pain of rebuild.

 

Conjecture? Um, yeah. You too. Anyone making a guess at the future is using conjecture.

 

And no, Pete Carroll reloaded. What he did is absolutely nothing like a complete rebuild.

No you don’t get it. Just because you have an opinion doesn’t make it the most valid or even right. McBeane has gotten two quarterbacks hurt now behind a crappy line. 

Just because I don’t buy everything they are selling doesn’t make me or anyone else stupid. Grow up and stop pretending you are Trump calling people names like a child. 

I showed you exactly where your diatribe was all pie in the sky and you can’t take it. 

 

[Thurman#1]

 

14 hours ago, iinii said:

No you don’t get it. Just because you have an opinion doesn’t make it the most valid or even right. McBeane has gotten two quarterbacks hurt now behind a crappy line. 

Just because I don’t buy everything they are selling doesn’t make me or anyone else stupid. Grow up and stop pretending you are Trump calling people names like a child. 

I showed you exactly where your diatribe was all pie in the sky and you can’t take it. 

 

 

 

And yet more of empty denials with almost zero football content whatsoever.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, cd1 said:

I would buy this whole "rebuild" ***** accept...

 

McBeane has proved to be a TERRIBLE judge of offensive personnel.

 

Other than Allen (still up in the air), who have they added to improve, in any way, the OFFENSE?

 

Kelvin Benjamin? Mike Tolbert?  Cory Coleman? Jeremy Kerley?  Anquan Boldin?  AJ McCarron? There are more...

 

If they have 100 picks and Million$ of dollar$ in cap space it MATTERS NOT if they are poor judges of offensive skills.

 

They will just be adding to the trash pile of also rans!

 

 

He really has just NOT proved to be a bad judge of offensive personnel.

 

How come you folks making this argument keep forgetting to mention Dion Dawkins? Why is that? Couldn't be because he disproves it pretty completely, could it? And that you don't want people to think about him for just that reason, could it?

 

Excepting Dawkins ... Kelvin Benjamin has started to look pretty solid the last three games or so. Same with Zay Jones.

 

Corey Coleman cost them a bit of money, but it doesn't appear to have been an issue of offensive skill, as reported by Mary Kat Cabot, " The Bills didn't like Coleman's attitude from the time he arrived, a source told cleveland.com, and it never got much better. He also still struggled to run full speed because of his tight hamstrings."

 

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/09/bills_cut_corey_coleman_less_t.html

 

Any argument that has to pretend that guys like Mike Tolbert and Jerome Kerley were anything more than extremely low-budget fill-ins is one pathetic argument. What it shows is exactly that it's hard to find examples of areas where they spent significant amounts of resources (money or high draft picks) on the offense that aren't showing signs of being successful (Dawkins and Zay). Boldin? Good lord, are you reaching much to blame his retirement on the coaches when bringing him in cost absolutely nothing?

 

Ducasse has outperformed his contract too.

 

Yeah, after that it's hard to find examples, exactly because they clearly prioritized the defense.

 

Next year it's a good guess that this team led by a coach from a defensive background who now has a defense playing quite well will spend a lot of resources on the offense.

 

 

[cd1]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

He really has just NOT proved to be a bad judge of offensive personnel.

 

How come you folks making this argument keep forgetting to mention Dion Dawkins? Why is that? Couldn't be because he disproves it pretty completely, could it? And that you don't want people to think about him for just that reason, could it?

 

Excepting Dawkins ... Kelvin Benjamin has started to look pretty solid the last three games or so. Same with Zay Jones.

 

Corey Coleman cost them a bit of money, but it doesn't appear to have been an issue of offensive skill, as reported by Mary Kat Cabot, " The Bills didn't like Coleman's attitude from the time he arrived, a source told cleveland.com, and it never got much better. He also still struggled to run full speed because of his tight hamstrings."

 

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/09/bills_cut_corey_coleman_less_t.html

 

Any argument that has to pretend that guys like Mike Tolbert and Jerome Kerley were anything more than extremely low-budget fill-ins is one pathetic argument. What it shows is exactly that it's hard to find examples of areas where they spent significant amounts of resources (money or high draft picks) on the offense that aren't showing signs of being successful (Dawkins and Zay). Boldin? Good lord, are you reaching much to blame his retirement on the coaches when bringing him in cost absolutely nothing?

 

Ducasse has outperformed his contract too.

 

Yeah, after that it's hard to find examples, exactly because they clearly prioritized the defense.

 

Next year it's a good guess that this team led by a coach from a defensive background who now has a defense playing quite well will spend a lot of resources on the offense.

 

 

 

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

"extremely low budget fill-ins" just about says it all.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[iinii]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

And yet more of empty denials with almost zero football content whatsoever.

Here is content for you. Buffalo has the worst offense in the league and potentially the worst in the modern era. This is a FACT. There is no conjecture, no speculation and no hyperbole in that statement. 

Here is another FACT. There are a number of individuals, Todd Gurley being one of them, that have more yards and TDs than the entire Buffalo offense. 

Oh and by the way this regime not only drafted Peterman but trotted him out after the worst performance ever by a quarterback passing the football. That is indicative of this regime having very little knowledge about offense and what it takes to compete in today’s NFL. And we will be graced by his presence this weekend under center because McBean chose to rip the band-aid off and take a close to a 10 million cap hit on Taylor and McCarron. He made the sandwich. Enjoy your bite.

 

[The Now Moment]

On 10/21/2018 at 10:44 PM, apuszczalowski said:

So your one of those suckers that they hoped everyone would be, willing to chug the koolaid that they just need time trust a bunch of first time coaches and GMs to completely gut and rebuild a team successfully. You also are more then likely not a season ticket holder, or even a ticket holder putting down good money to watch them play this year

I'm one of those guys that saw a team with a rookie QB with little talent around him.  Jared Goff, Carson Went and Mitchell Trubisky had this issue in their first season as well.  None of those guys had great first seasons and some were thrown to the weeds by fans who can't stand not winning every game of every season.  It takes patience.  Next year, if the offense isn't ten times better, then it is time to reevaluate.  Call me a sucker but I don't overreact to every little thing that happens.  BTW first time coaches have had success recently.  Pederson and McVay say hi.  Oh and also the only coach who has been able to take this team to the playoffs in the last twenty years or so.  

[Helpmenow]

On 10/21/2018 at 4:37 PM, jtothebrown said:

This GM, This Coach, This Ownership, has deliberately set this team up to fail.

 

Just look at all the moves they made to gut the team. Just look at all the moves they havent made to improve this team.

 

They tried really hard last year, and if it wasnt for that meddling Dalton, they would have succeded.

That was a little Scooby Doo humor!

And the fans paid with their hard earned money too.

[CLTbills]

On 10/21/2018 at 4:42 PM, SDS said:

 

Seriously?

 

 They moved as many veterans that are not a part of the future off the books this year, have loaded up on draft picks next year, and have  $90 million in cap space. What exactly is it that you don’t see? 

Thank you, SDS. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept. I explain it to someone literally every day and just get told "Trust the process until McDermott and Beane are fired." 

I literally just had this discussion yesterday. What would you prefer? One year of suckitude followed by a decade of success? Or keeping all of those guys that we weren't winning with anyway and continuing to be mediocre every year?