The 2017 Draft: 1st round Re-do

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hopkins I 100% agree.  But Fuller?  Here are the stats:

 

With Watson - averages 69.75 yards per game and 1.75 TDs per game

With other QBs over 2 seasons - averages 41.6 yards per game and 0.14 TDs per game.  

In fact Fuller has 9 NFL Touchdowns in almost 2 seasons.  7 of them came in his 4 games with Watson at QB.  

 

Fuller with Watson is a bona fide 1B NFL receiver.  Without him he is an average #2.  

 

I agree by the way that it worked out fine for the Bills and they got a very good player who could be here a long time.  I also understand why they did what they did.  That does not change my opinion on what they should have done or what the right thing to do was. They made a wrong decision in my view.  

 

Not sure what point you are trying to make here.  I already said Watson is better than the guys Houston has trotted out, and Fuller is young and most of the non-Watson stats you are citing is his from his rookie with year with terrible QB play.  

 

All I said is that Hopkins/Fuller is one of the best 1/2 punches in the NFL right now.  And they showed it with better QB play.  Then I cited that its still early on to tell with Watson because he has serious talent to throw to and want to see sustained success not just a handful of games.  Great WR duos have made others look better than they were too in the past, so just want to see Watson do it for longer once the NFL has more tape and a game plan for him.  

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Not sure what point you are trying to make here.  I already said Watson is better than the guys Houston has trotted out, and Fuller is young and most of the non-Watson stats you are citing is his from his rookie with year with terrible QB play.  

 

All I said is that Hopkins/Fuller is one of the best 1/2 punches in the NFL right now.  And they showed it with better QB play.  Then I cited that its still early on to tell with Watson because he has serious talent to throw to and want to see sustained success not just a handful of games.  Great WR duos have made others look better than they were too in the past, so just want to see Watson do it for longer once the NFL has more tape and a game plan for him.  

 

I am not ready to say Fuller is great and Watson is wait and see based on those numbers. I agree we shouldn't annoint anyone on 6 games but I think Fuller's career performances do not point to him being part of a great 1/2 punch. Only his numbers with Watson point to that. 

 

Basically I am not convinced Fuller did anything to make Watson better. I contend the evidence so far suggests quite the opposite. 

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not ready to say Fuller is great and Watson is wait and see based on those numbers. I agree we shouldn't annoint anyone on 6 games but I think Fuller's career performances do not point to him being part of a great 1/2 punch. Only his numbers with Watson point to that. 

 

Basically I am not convinced Fuller did anything to make Watson better. I contend the evidence so far suggests quite the opposite. 

 

Fari enough, I just really am high on Fuller and was coming out of college too.  Much like you with Watson.  Either way, we are in agreement it will be fun to watch develop there once Watson is back and Bills still in a good position with Tre and an extra first.

 

Who are you pulling for this draft at QB?  I am a bit torn on who I want still, there are quite a few intriguing QB's.  I still think the pick will be Baker Mayfield in a less expensive trade up scenario compared to trying to go up and get Rosen or Darnold.  But who I think and I want doesn't necessarily mean the same thing.  I would be thrilled with Rosen, Darnold, or Baker none the less.  But still intrigued by several others too, especially if we can stay put and grab them and use our other firsts and picks through first 3 rounds filling out other positions.  

[Jamie Muellers Ghost]

Curious about the two that voted for this option... Trade 10 to KC but take a different player than Tre White at 27

which player ?

 

I'm still the only one to vote for Lattimore  : )

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Fari enough, I just really am high on Fuller and was coming out of college too.  Much like you with Watson.  Either way, we are in agreement it will be fun to watch develop there once Watson is back and Bills still in a good position with Tre and an extra first.

 

Who are you pulling for this draft at QB?  I am a bit torn on who I want still, there are quite a few intriguing QB's.  I still think the pick will be Baker Mayfield in a less expensive trade up scenario compared to trying to go up and get Rosen or Darnold.  But who I think and I want doesn't necessarily mean the same thing.  I would be thrilled with Rosen, Darnold, or Baker none the less.  But still intrigued by several others too, especially if we can stay put and grab them and use our other firsts and picks through first 3 rounds filling out other positions.  

 

Yea and I am maybe guilty of sticking to what was not a great view of Fuller coming out. I had a couple of chat box afternoons debating it with Turbs. But I do think the sharp uptick in production with Watson tells something of a story. Anyway... we will get no further with that debate until next season. 

 

As for this year I think the trade up for Rosen or Darnold (who I do think will come out) is really attractive if we have a dance partner. I fancied the 49ers but they are playing their way out... I see Cleveland and the Giants standing pat and picking a Quarterback if they are 1 and 2. 

 

While I do like Baker Mayfield and think he absolutely desrves to be a 1st round pick I am a bit more wary about a trade up for him. If he is there when we are on the clock I would pick him but I have enough personality flags to be wary about mortgaging the future for him.

 

After that I have Rudolph and then Jackson who I am absolutely not trading up for but would be happy to take a swing on. Rudolph I think would need to sit a little while but by half way through 18 I think you could get him on the field. I think Jackson you would have to make pretty substantial varience to your offense for to get anything at all out of him in 18.

 

If all 5 are off the board the 1st time we go on the clock I might honestly then punt on a QB as much as I hate that. I hate the idea of Josh Allen in the 1st (or even 2nd) a lot. Maybe trade the 2nd first to a team who wants to come up for Allen and get a 2nd number 1 again next year?? 

 

Having said all that I very, very much doubt Mayfield or Jackson are in play for Buffalo. I have heard Brandon Beane describe his view of a franchise QB and it doesn't sound like either of them. I suspect the Bills board is Rosen and Darnold in some order at 1 and 2, then Rudolph and Allen in some order at 3 and 4. I might be completely wrong of course but that is how I see it. 

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by GunnerBill

[Alphadawg7]

31 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea and I am maybe guilty of sticking to what was not a great view of Fuller coming out. I had a couple of chat box afternoons debating it with Turbs. But I do think the sharp uptick in production with Watson tells something of a story. Anyway... we will get no further with that debate until next season. 

 

As for this year I think the trade up for Rosen or Darnold (who I do think will come out) is really attractive if we have a dance partner. I fancied the 49ers but they are playing their way out... I see Cleveland and the Giants standing pat and picking a Quarterback if they are 1 and 2. 

 

While I do like Baker Mayfield and think he absolutely desrves to be a 1st round pick I am a bit more wary about a trade up for him. If he is there when we are on the clock I would pick him but I have enough personality flags to be wary about mortgaging the future for him.

 

After that I have Rudolph and then Jackson who I am absolutely not trading up for but would be happy to take a swing on. Rudolph I think would need to sit a little while but by half way through 18 I think you could get him on the field. I think Jackson you would have to make pretty substantial varience to your offense for to get anything at all out of him in 18.

 

If all 5 are off the board the 1st time we go on the clock I might honestly then punt on a QB as much as I hate that. I hate the idea of Josh Allen in the 1st (or even 2nd) a lot. Maybe trade the 2nd first to a team who wants to come up for Allen and get a 2nd number 1 again next year?? 

 

Having said all that I very, very much doubt Mayfield or Jackson are in play for Buffalo. I have heard Brandon Beane describe his view of a franchise QB and it doesn't sound like either of them. I suspect the Bills board is Rosen and Darnold in some order at 1 and 2, then Rudolph and Allen in some order at 3 and 4. I might be completely wrong of course but that is how I see it. 

 

 

I am pretty aligned in everything you said, except the idea of punting on a QB this year unless they do some surprise move in Free Agency to get someone like Cousins which they would obviously take QB out of the equation.  

 

If rumors are true with the Bills love of say Darnold, wouldnt surprise me to see a big trade up.  And while its easy to think that a QB needy team will stand pat and just take one of them, this is a relatively deep QB class, so gaining a bounty of picks and still nabbing a good QB prospect they might also like will be quite tempting for a team rebuilding.  

 

I still think that Baker is the likely rookie we get simply because he still fits what we have heard Beane claim he wants and will cost less than going up to get Darnold.  The one dark horse for me is actually Lamar.  I get what you said about Beanes public comments, but thats also exactly what he would say if he was interested in Lamar too because they don't want to tip their hat if they do like him.  I think Watsons early success is now going to make teams much more interested and curious about Lamar, so if he shows well throwing at the combine I think he could be a guy we target and don't even have to trade up to get.  This also allows us to use all our other draft assets filling the other needs of the team like OL and DL and probably another WR too with Kelvins durability issues and ZJ's struggles.  

 

I also would be ok using our first 2 picks on something other than a QB and going after someone in the 2nd because I think after you get past Rosen, Darnold, and Baker the rest of the grouping all have similar amounts of pros and cons so it comes down to who the team likes best.  

 

My prediction is still Baker as we sit here today.  But there will be a lot between now and the draft that will impact that of course.

[GunnerBill]

I'd be happy with Baker.... I am just not sure he does fit what Beane wants. 

[Buffalo86]

Other:  

Do the same deal, but with the Giants, who were reportedly desperate to trade up for Mahomes.  

Use the #23 on White.  

Bicker over which QB to take with the Giants' 2018 pick.

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo86 said:

Other:  

Do the same deal, but with the Giants, who were reportedly desperate to trade up for Mahomes.  

Use the #23 on White.  

Bicker over which QB to take with the Giants' 2018 pick.

 

I see the Giants taking Eli's successor at #2. 

[Buffalo86]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I see the Giants taking Eli's successor at #2. 

 

Definitely, but it should've been Tyrod's successor instead.