Republican Tax Plan (a nothingburger with cheese)

[billsfan89]

2 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

Businesses don't pay taxes.  Businesses look at taxes as nothing more than a budgetary line item, and pass their tax burden along to the consumer in the form of higher prices.

 

 

That sounds a lot like sophistry. For one that implies that all businesses act in uniform two that ignores the fact that a high business tax rate actually encourages economic investment. Why give 20-40% of your profits to the man when you can invest your profits into growing your business and write that money off? Lower the tax rate and keeping the insane subsidies basically places the already low effective rate even lower. 

 

The USA is no longer incentivizing businesses to invest in long-term growth, instead, they have lowered the rates and given out subsidies to the point of a lot of big highly profitable corporations aren't paying much in taxes on profits. So when profits are high and taxes are very very low CEO's are going to do massive stock buybacks and bonuses that mostly go to very small groups of people and foreign investors. 
 

When Warren Buffett says we coddle the rich and corporations in this country you know something is wrong. 

[DC Tom]

1 minute ago, billsfan89 said:

 

That sounds a lot like sophistry. For one that implies that all businesses act in uniform two that ignores the fact that a high business tax rate actually encourages economic investment. Why give 20-40% of your profits to the man when you can invest your profits into growing your business and write that money off? Lower the tax rate and keeping the insane subsidies basically places the already low effective rate even lower. 

 

The USA is no longer incentivizing businesses to invest in long-term growth, instead, they have lowered the rates and given out subsidies to the point of a lot of big highly profitable corporations aren't paying much in taxes on profits. So when profits are high and taxes are very very low CEO's are going to do massive stock buybacks and bonuses that mostly go to very small groups of people and foreign investors. 
 

When Warren Buffett says we coddle the rich and corporations in this country you know something is wrong. 

 

That's not how corporate accounting works.

[row_33]

easy for Warren to say....

 

 

[billsfan89]

Just now, DC Tom said:

 

That's not how corporate accounting works.

 

I didn't phrase it the best but the point remains that if you have a higher tax rate you make investing more in longer-term growth more attractive since you have a large write off for the money you invest in. Whereas if your rates are extremely low or non-existent you don't have as much incentive to invest as much. 

[row_33]

21 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I didn't phrase it the best but the point remains that if you have a higher tax rate you make investing more in longer-term growth more attractive since you have a large write off for the money you invest in. Whereas if your rates are extremely low or non-existent you don't have as much incentive to invest as much. 

 

nobody knows what the real rate is for Amazon except for it's internal accountants, the Audit Committee, the external auditors and the IRS.

 

[billsfan89]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

nobody knows what the real rate is for Amazon except for it's internal accountants, the Audit Committee, the external auditors and the IRS.

 

 

I was more so talking in a general sense about corporations tax burden shifting from 33% in 1952 to 9% in 2013 and that share is going down thanks to these tax cuts. It's undeniable that since the early 80's, in particular, the USA has consistently been giving away more and more to corporations and the top 1% of earners and the economy hasn't really been all that great for the middle and working class. There is only so much we can put on the debt to prop up the economy before the shrinking middle class and lack of consumer demand becomes a problem that consumes the economy. So far Trump and the GOP's solutions are to just do more supply side stuff but there is no metric or past success that shows that these policies will work given the current conditions.

[Koko78]

58 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

So who is picking up this slack that corporations have dropped? It's the middle class and the debt.

 

Which part of the middle class? I'm only asking because the vast majority of the middle class also got a tax cut. Those whose fell into the hole left when the tax brackets were reduced make a ton of money to begin with. Hell, there isn't really any agreement on what is 'middle class'.

 

This 'burden on the middle class' talking point is (and always has been) a bunch of bullSchiff.

 

31 minutes ago, row_33 said:

easy for Warren to say....

 

 

The same Warren Buffett who uses every tax loophole to reduce his tax burdens...

Edited March 7, 2018 by Koko78

[billsfan89]

9 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Which part of the middle class? I'm only asking because the vast majority of the middle class also got a tax cut. Those whose fell into the hole left when the tax brackets were reduced make a ton of money to begin with. Hell, there isn't really any agreement on what is 'middle class'.

 

This 'burden on the middle class' talking point is (and always has been) a bunch of bullSchiff.

 

The middle class in blue states thanks to the SALT cap will be lucky to get anything from these bad tax policies. If you look at the percentage of taxes paid by corporations, top income earners, and the middle income earners we have shifted down the burden on corporations from 33% to 9% from 1952 to 2013 and that's only going lower. Top 1% Earners have seen their share of the tax burden significantly lowered thanks to tax cuts and massive cuts to the capital gains rate. While middle-income brackets have seen very little relief in terms of percentage of federal taxes paid.

 

You honestly have to be a sucker to think that because a modest cut was given to middle-income earners. That makes it OK for us to give bigger cuts to corporations and the top brackets who are doing better than ever and whose success has never meaningfully impacted the middle class. 

 

The middle class in all states are going to get !@#$ed in the ass by the GOP when they go to cut I mean save Social Security by lowering it for future generations. They will move to cut Medicaid too. There is only so much you can charge to the company credit card before you have to cut the programs that the vast majority of Americans benefit from. We are basically financing corporate earnings and top income rate cuts with future cuts to social security and Medicare. It is going to be the middle and working class the takes it in the ass on that one. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by billsfan89

[Tiberius]

9 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The middle class in blue states thanks to the SALT cap will be lucky to get anything from these bad tax policies. If you look at the percentage of taxes paid by corporations, top income earners, and the middle income earners we have shifted down the burden on corporations from 33% to 9% from 1952 to 2013 and that's only going lower. Top 1% Earners have seen their share of the tax burden significantly lowered thanks to tax cuts and massive cuts to the capital gains rate. While middle-income brackets have seen very little relief in terms of percentage of federal taxes paid.

 

You honestly have to be a sucker to think that because a modest cut was given to middle-income earners. That makes it OK for us to give bigger cuts to corporations and the top brackets who are doing better than ever and whose success has never meaningfully impacted the middle class. 

 

The middle class in all states are going to get !@#$ed in the ass by the GOP when they go to cut I mean save Social Security by lowering it for future generations. They will move to cut Medicaid too. There is only so much you can charge to the company credit card before you have to cut the programs that the vast majority of Americans benefit from. We are basically financing corporate earnings and top income rate cuts with future cuts to social security and Medicare. It is going to be the middle and working class the takes it in the ass on that one. 

One major ramification of this much lower taxation on the wealthy is that they are pouring their money into politics. And its working 

[Koko78]

11 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The middle class in blue states thanks to the SALT cap will be lucky to get anything from these bad tax policies. If you look at the percentage of taxes paid by corporations, top income earners, and the middle income earners we have shifted down the burden on corporations from 33% to 9% from 1952 to 2013 and that's only going lower. Top 1% Earners have seen their share of the tax burden significantly lowered thanks to tax cuts and massive cuts to the capital gains rate. While middle-income brackets have seen very little relief in terms of percentage of federal taxes paid.

 

You honestly have to be a sucker to think that because a modest cut was given to middle-income earners. That makes it OK for us to give bigger cuts to corporations and the top brackets who are doing better than ever and whose success has never meaningfully impacted the middle class. 

 

The middle class in all states are going to get !@#$ed in the ass by the GOP when they go to cut I mean save Social Security by lowering it for future generations. They will move to cut Medicaid too. There is only so much you can charge to the company credit card before you have to cut the programs that the vast majority of Americans benefit from. We are basically financing corporate earnings and top income rate cuts with future cuts to social security and Medicare. It is going to be the middle and working class the takes it in the ass on that one. 

 

If you're paying more than $10,000 in state taxes, you're doing pretty well in life. What happened to 'pay your fair share'? Or does that only apply to 'millionaires and billionaires' who have private jets?

 

By the way, I notice you forgot to mention that the standard deduction was also doubled, which more than offsets any loss from the SALT reduction for most everyone.

 

The Democrat talking points you are spouting have been pretty well debunked as outright lies. Stop perpetrating their lines of Schiff and look at the facts yourself.

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Koko78 said:

 

If you're paying more than $10,000 in state taxes, you're doing pretty well in life. What happened to 'pay your fair share'? Or does that only apply to 'millionaires and billionaires' who have private jets?

 

By the way, I notice you forgot to mention that the standard deduction was also doubled, which more than offsets any loss from the SALT reduction for most everyone.

 

The Democrat talking points you are spouting have been pretty well debunked as outright lies. Stop perpetrating their lines of Schiff and look at the facts yourself.

You are just knit picking and have not touched his major point at all 

[TakeYouToTasker]

57 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

That sounds a lot like sophistry. For one that implies that all businesses act in uniform two that ignores the fact that a high business tax rate actually encourages economic investment. Why give 20-40% of your profits to the man when you can invest your profits into growing your business and write that money off? Lower the tax rate and keeping the insane subsidies basically places the already low effective rate even lower. 

 

The USA is no longer incentivizing businesses to invest in long-term growth, instead, they have lowered the rates and given out subsidies to the point of a lot of big highly profitable corporations aren't paying much in taxes on profits. So when profits are high and taxes are very very low CEO's are going to do massive stock buybacks and bonuses that mostly go to very small groups of people and foreign investors. 
 

When Warren Buffett says we coddle the rich and corporations in this country you know something is wrong. 

No, higher business tax rates do not encourage higher rates of economic investment.  Strong underlying fundamentals and a consistent, business friendly environment encourage high rates of economic investment.

 

High corporate tax rates encourage the off-shoring of assets and prevent them from moving into the domestic economy.

 

And again, taxes, to a business, are nothing more than a line item business expense.  As with all other production costs, they are factored into pricing, and passed along to the consumer.

 

As to the SALT deductions, states advocating higher taxes and more spending should feel free to do so, but should not expect federal deductions for doing so.  If you want these things, pay for them in addition to the things you're asking the federal government to pay for.  Red states with lower state burdens should not be subsidizing your state spending.  If this slaps high tax advocates with a bit of reality in regards to the costs of what they advocate for, all the better.

Edited March 7, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker

[billsfan89]

1 minute ago, Koko78 said:

 

If you're paying more than $10,000 in state taxes, you're doing pretty well in life. What happened to 'pay your fair share'? Or does that only apply to 'millionaires and billionaires' who have private jets?

 

By the way, I notice you forgot to mention that the standard deduction was also doubled, which more than offsets any loss from the SALT reduction for most everyone.

 

The Democrat talking points you are spouting have been pretty well debunked as outright lies. Stop perpetrating their lines of Schiff and look at the facts yourself.

 

How is the straight out fact that corporations use to pay 33% of federal taxes and now pay 9% a Democratic talking point? Most economists say that the biggest issue with the US economy is the lack of consumer demand and a general shrinking of the consumer base. The GOP has come out and said that they would be willing to cut Social Security and Medicare for future generations as a result of massive deficits. Massive deficits that were further widened by this insane tax policy whose primary beneficiaries are the people in the economy doing the best for the past 35 years. 

 

I agree that the middle class saw a tax cut, but the modest tax cut that the middle class will be getting will not be enough. 48% of Americans can't afford a $1,000 emergency. We have serious issues with the economy and the solution to those issues aren't give away the farm even further to the 1% of income earners and corporations. 

 

In 1980 the top 1% of income brackets earned 8.5% of the income in America. Now the top 1% earns 20% of the income and the numbers about percentage of wealth owned are staggering. So most economists and people in business will outright tell you that consumer demand and the health of the middle class is a crisis burdening the economy. And the GOP's solution is to help out the top 1% and corporations in the name of growing the economy. But if corporate profits and the share of wealth and capital available to the 1% were keys to growing the economy why hasn't the economy been doing gangbusters since 2001? 

 

Common sense has to tell you that if we are going to try and fix the issues with the US economy this is not the way to go. How much higher do corporate earnings have to go for there to be growth? 

[Koko78]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You are just knit picking and have not touched his major point at all 

 

Nit picking, nit. Knit picking would probably involve socks or a scarf.

 

What major point? That the people/entities who pay the most taxes receive the most benefit from a tax cut? No Schiff, that's basic math. It's about as intelligent a point as saying that the infamous '47%' of people who don't pay taxes received no benefit from the tax cut.

 

The unfounded point that corporations pay 9% tax (when the tax rate was 35%)? I'm not interested in fact checking his numbers; pointing out the complete lack of context with the 9% number, assuming that's even a real thing; nor pointing out that any corporation who doesn't use legal tax loopholes are staffed by morons.

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Koko78 said:

 

Nit picking, nit. Knit picking would probably involve socks or a scarf.

 

What major point? That the people/entities who pay the most taxes receive the most benefit from a tax cut? No Schiff, that's basic math. It's about as intelligent a point as saying that the infamous '47%' of people who don't pay taxes received no benefit from the tax cut.

 

The unfounded point that corporations pay 9% tax (when the tax rate was 35%)? I'm not interested in fact checking his numbers; pointing out the complete lack of context with the 9% number, assuming that's even a real thing; nor pointing out that any corporation who doesn't use legal tax loopholes are staffed by morons.

No, the point is that the wealthy are getting a massive tax break while the middle class is shrinking. You are answering with a talking point that drives right by that point. 

[Koko78]

18 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

I agree that the middle class saw a tax cut, but the modest tax cut that the middle class will be getting will not be enough. 48% of Americans can't afford a $1,000 emergency. We have serious issues with the economy and the solution to those issues aren't give away the farm even further to the 1% of income earners and corporations. 

 

A lack of responsible financial planning is not an economy problem. It's a stupidity problem.

 

18 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

How is the straight out fact that corporations use to pay 33% of federal taxes and now pay 9% a Democratic talking point? Most economists say that the biggest issue with the US economy is the lack of consumer demand and a general shrinking of the consumer base. The GOP has come out and said that they would be willing to cut Social Security and Medicare for future generations as a result of massive deficits. Massive deficits that were further widened by this insane tax policy whose primary beneficiaries are the people in the economy doing the best for the past 35 years.

 

In 1980 the top 1% of income brackets earned 8.5% of the income in America. Now the top 1% earns 20% of the income and the numbers about percentage of wealth owned are staggering. So most economists and people in business will outright tell you that consumer demand and the health of the middle class is a crisis burdening the economy. And the GOP's solution is to help out the top 1% and corporations in the name of growing the economy. But if corporate profits and the share of wealth and capital available to the 1% were keys to growing the economy why hasn't the economy been doing gangbusters since 2001? 

 

 

These 33%/9% numbers are without context, and are meaningless.

 

As for the top 1% of earners making 20% of the income today, so what? What does that have to do with anything? The top 1% of earners also pay the biggest tax rate.

 

Quote

A Pew Research Center analysis of IRS data from 2015, the most recent available, shows that taxpayers with incomes of $200,000 or more paid well over half (58.8%) of federal income taxes, though they accounted for only 4.5% of all returns filed (6.8% of all taxable returns).

 

By contrast, taxpayers with incomes below $30,000 filed nearly 44% of all returns but paid just 1.4% of all federal income tax – in fact, two-thirds of the nearly 66 million returns filed by people in that lowest income tier owed no tax at all.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/10/06/a-closer-look-at-who-does-and-doesnt-pay-u-s-income-tax/

 

4.5% of tax payers pay almost 59% of income taxes. To say the 'rich' aren't paying their fair share, and that the 'middle class' will somehow be burdened by an across-the-board tax cut is a bunch of DNC talking point bullSchiff.

 

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No, the point is that the wealthy are getting a massive tax break while the middle class is shrinking. You are answering with a talking point that drives right by that point. 

 

Let me sum up:

 

14 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

What major point? That the people/entities who pay the most taxes receive the most benefit from a tax cut? No Schiff, that's basic math. It's about as intelligent a point as saying that the infamous '47%' of people who don't pay taxes received no benefit from the tax cut.

 

 

Alright, fine. Since I did post the pew research article, I will fact check the 9% number. It's bullSchiff.

 

Quote

In 2013 (the most recent year for which corporate tax data are available), the 3.6 million corporations that reported net income on their returns owed corporate income tax equal to 15.2% of their total pretax profits after all credits were applied, according to our analysis of IRS data. As recently as 2001, the effective corporate tax rate was 27.6%. (However, a Congressional Budget Office report noted that even using the effective rate, U.S. corporate taxes in 2012 were still the fourth-highest among G-20 countries.)

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Koko78

[row_33]

everything sucks, it's not fair, woe is all of us, might as well end it all tonight....

 

 

 

[DC Tom]

Why do I have to pay taxes when literally no one else does?????

[row_33]

22 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

Why do I have to pay taxes when literally no one else does?????

 

 

i know DC, it's worse up here, I have to pay the taxes for all 26 million and all the corporations as well....

 

i'm trying not to lose my head... ha ha ha-ha-ha

 

 

imagine how much more great life would be with the media telling us that sunshine pours out of the ass of President Hillary 24/7...

 

[Tiberius]

So did the vast majority of the cuts go to the wealthy? 

 

Will most of you be fine with cutting medicare and Social Security to balance the budget?