2016 TALENT VS. 2017 TALENT

[jrober38]

This will be one of the worst offenses in the league, get ready. It's going to be like the years when the Sabres would have to try and win 1-0 or 2-1. Brace yourself for near unwatchable football as they try and scrape and claw to 6 wins.

 

Agreed.

 

I think we're going to struggle to score 20 points per game. It's going to be a throwback to when we used to have Dick Jauron as HC.

[thebandit27]

Someone please enlighten me on where they think the talent from last year's team is better than this year's. Other than WR, if Sammy was healthy last year, it's hard to argue a position group this year isn't as good or better than last and we have 6 picks in the first 3 rounds next year.

 

QB's much better due to backups Not ready to say that; we need to see Peterman be more than a 50% passer against backups before this is true.

RB/FB equal. Could potentially argue Mike G and Felton are better than Gillislee averaged over 5.0 YPC for 2 seasons; until proven otherwise this position has been downgraded

Williams/Tolbert I guess.

OL equal Asterisk here--equal if Glenn is healthy; worse if he's not

TE equal Possibly better if Logan Thomas can show some of the ability he has in practice, but yeah, I agree

WR worse if Sammy healthy, but Zay may be great No question that WR is worse, and it isn't close.

 

DL better Agreed

LB better Looks that way from preseason, but again, hard to say one way or the other

Safety better and not even close. Agreed

CB equal, but I am not a big Gilmore fan. No. A rookie with zero NFL snaps and a former 6th round pick that had fallen to #4 on his team's depth chart are not equal to Gilmore and Darby. In fact it's not even close.

 

Coaching better. That remains to be seen.

 

Can anyone argue a position group is better this year?

 

My comments above...I see 2 position groups that are clearly better (DL and S), 3 that are clearly worse (RB, WR, and CB), and 2 that show signs of potentially being better (TE and LB).

[rant_and_go]

Bad year ahead. What everyone else said, plus:

- Schedule is a lot harder this year
- Coaches look like they only know how to do one thing
- Margin of error in the NFL is extremley high and any weakness will be exploited. A bad kickoff return game can destroy you
- The things that caused the Bills to loose last year, like penalties and throwing over the middle, are not fixed.
- New problems, like turnovers and injuries, will pop up
- Very little will to win from ownership. Brady had a concussion, and they just let that slide. They make more money loosing than if they won.

[Bills Pimpin']

 

My comments above...I see 2 position groups that are clearly better (DL and S), 3 that are clearly worse (RB, WR, and CB), and 2 that show signs of potentially being better (TE and LB).

 

How can you possibly think this is "clearly worse" than anything?:

 

 

2016 Bills Receiving

Receiving

PLAYER REC YDS YDS/REC LONG TD

Charles Clay 57 552 9.7 40 4

Robert Woods 51 613 12 34 1

LeSean McCoy 50 356 7.1 41 1

Marquise Goodwin 29 431 14.9 84 3

Sammy Watkins 28 430 15.4 62 2

Walt Powell 14 142 10.1 35 0

Justin Hunter 10 189 18.9 64 4

Nick O'Leary 9 114 12.7 28 0

Mike Gillislee 9 50 5.6 18 1

[rant_and_go]

 

How can you possibly think this is "clearly worse" than anything?:

 

 

2016 Bills Receiving

Receiving

PLAYER REC YDS YDS/REC LONG TD

Charles Clay 57 552 9.7 40 4

Robert Woods 51 613 12 34 1

LeSean McCoy 50 356 7.1 41 1

Marquise Goodwin 29 431 14.9 84 3

Sammy Watkins 28 430 15.4 62 2

Walt Powell 14 142 10.1 35 0

Justin Hunter 10 189 18.9 64 4

Nick O'Leary 9 114 12.7 28 0

Mike Gillislee 9 50 5.6 18 1

The game is not a stat sheet. Tyrod can't throw over the middle, and coaches are forcing him.

[Bills Pimpin']

Bad year ahead. What everyone else said, plus:

 

- Schedule is a lot harder this year

- Coaches look like they only know how to do one thing

- Margin of error in the NFL is extremley high and any weakness will be exploited. A bad kickoff return game can destroy you

- The things that caused the Bills to loose last year, like penalties and throwing over the middle, are not fixed.

- New problems, like turnovers and injuries, will pop up

- Very little will to win from ownership. Brady had a concussion, and they just let that slide. They make more money loosing than if they won.

 

I am in no way saying that it is not going to be a bad year ahead and all of your points are either valid for every team in the NFL or is a prediction of what may happen and not based on actual events.

But based on many comments on this board people believe the Bills are in tank mode based on the the moves made by Beane and McD.

IMO this is a false narrative as the team talent seems equitable and they are gaining draft picks.

The game is not a stat sheet. Tyrod can't throw over the middle, and coaches are forcing him.

We were talking about the talent of the WR position. You are talking about coaching which bandit responded:

 

Coaching better. That remains to be seen.

 

I can agree with that.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Bills Pimpin'

[YoloinOhio]

 

I am in no way saying that it is not going to be a bad year ahead and all of your points are either valid for every team in the NFL or is a prediction of what may happen and not based on actual events.

But based on many comments on this board people believe the Bills are in tank mode based on the the moves made by Beane and McD.

IMO this is a false narrative as the team talent seems equitable and they are gaining draft picks.

 

We were talking about the talent of the WR position. You are talking about coaching which you responded:

 

Coaching better. That remains to be seen.

 

I can agree with that.

i definitely do not see any kind of tank. I do see a soft rebuild that picked up steam last week and was a giant wake up call that they wish to field a different team than previous years - and they feel it will lead to at least the same, if not better results, than those teams. While still gaining valuable assets to improve for the future. It's a great strategy, but we need wait before seeing if it works. We know that the previous strategy did not work, so I'm all for change. But change can lead to angst until we see tangible results.

[thebandit27]

 

How can you possibly think this is "clearly worse" than anything?:

 

 

2016 Bills Receiving

Receiving

PLAYER REC YDS YDS/REC LONG TD

Charles Clay 57 552 9.7 40 4

Robert Woods 51 613 12 34 1

LeSean McCoy 50 356 7.1 41 1

Marquise Goodwin 29 431 14.9 84 3

Sammy Watkins 28 430 15.4 62 2

Walt Powell 14 142 10.1 35 0

Justin Hunter 10 189 18.9 64 4

Nick O'Leary 9 114 12.7 28 0

Mike Gillislee 9 50 5.6 18 1

 

Because you've removed 127 receptions from that crop and replaced them with 114--and that's if we only look at 2016. If we look at 2015, then we're talking about Sammy at full health, and that's what you were looking at for 2017 prior to the trade. Furthermore, you've taken out of the mix the only WR that your QB has ever had any established level of trust and comfort. That's a massive blow to a passing game that relied almost exclusively on big-plays to operate at any reasonable level of efficiency.

 

So I'll toss the question back to you, which group is more talented:

 

Group A: Sammy Watkins, Robert Woods, Marquise Goodwin, Walt Powell, Justin Hunter, Brandon Tate

Group B: Zay Jones, Jordan Matthews, Andre Holmes, Walt Powell, Brandon Tate, Corey Brown, Rod Streater

 

It's a clear, obvious, significant downgrade in ability IMO. I don't see how a reasonable, educated football fan could see otherwise.

Edited August 21, 2017 by thebandit27

[Bills Pimpin']

i definitely do not see any kind of tank. I do see a soft rebuild that picked up steam last week and was a giant wake up call that they wish to field a different team than previous years - and they feel it will lead to at least the same, if not better results, than those teams. While still gaining valuable assets to improve for the future. It's a great strategy, but we need wait before seeing if it works. We know that the previous strategy did not work, so I'm all for change. But change can lead to angst until we see tangible results.

I agree with this and I do believe after the first month of training camp and a couple preseason games they are leaning more towards the future based on what they have seen. I also think they have the nuts to shift gears again if TT or Peterman show promise and the win/loss record is better than most predict. But there will be some angst if they are like 1-5 and they go into full tank mode which is a definite possiblility.

 

Because you've removed 127 receptions from that crop and replaced them with 114--and that's if we only look at 2016. If we look at 2015, then we're talking about Sammy at full health, and that's what you were looking at for 2017 prior to the trade. Furthermore, you've taken out of the mix the only WR that your QB has ever had any established level of trust and comfort. That's a massive blow to a passing game that relied almost exclusively on big-plays to operate at any reasonable level of efficiency.

 

So I'll toss the question back to you, which group is more talented:

 

Group A: Sammy Watkins, Robert Woods, Marquise Goodwin, Walt Powell, Justin Hunter, Brandon Tate

Group B: Zay Jones, Andre Holmes, Walt Powell, Brandon Tate, Corey Brown, Rod Streater

 

It's a clear, obvious, significant downgrade in ability IMO. I don't see how a reasonable, educated football fan could see otherwise.

I can not understand why you refuse to put Jordan Matthew in the discussion. He is a member of the Buffalo Bills. When you decide to put him in the discussion, I will agree you can argue last year is better, but a "clear downgrade"? I do not believe that in any way.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Bills Pimpin'

[thebandit27]

I agree with this and I do believe after the first month of training camp and a couple preseason games they are leaning more towards the future based on what they have seen. I also think they have the nuts to shift gears again if TT or Peterman show promise and the win/loss record is better than most predict. But there will be some angst if they are like 1-5 and they go into full tank mode which is a definite possiblility.

I can not understand why you refuse to put Jordan Matthew in the discussion. He is a member of the Buffalo Bills. When you decide to put him in the discussion, I will agree you can argue last year is better, but a "clear downgrade"? I do not believe that in any way.

 

Simply forgot to add his name to the list (edited now)...I included his numbers in the discussion

Edited August 21, 2017 by thebandit27

[Luxy312]

Someone please enlighten me on where they think the talent from last year's team is better than this year's. Other than WR, if Sammy was healthy last year, it's hard to argue a position group this year isn't as good or better than last and we have 6 picks in the first 3 rounds next year.

 

QB's much better due to backups

RB/FB equal. Could potentially argue Mike G and Felton are better than

Williams/Tolbert I guess.

OL equal

TE equal

WR worse if Sammy healthy, but Zay may be great

 

DL better

LB better

Safety better and not even close.

CB equal, but I am not a big Gilmore fan.

 

Coaching better.

 

Can anyone argue a position group is better this year?

 

QB's the same until further notice. Peterson has looked decent in preseason, but let's not forget that so did EJ. Let's see what the backups do if Tyrod gets hurt. Clearly if he doesn't get hurt, we can say same.

RB's worse. Gillislee was a solid backup for McCoy. I don't think I can say we got better with Tolbert.

WR's maybe slightly better. We as fans continue to make Watkins to be some stud. Matthews was more consistent than Watkins over the last three years. I get arguing Sammy's upside, but we haven't SEEN his upside. Adding Zay Jones in the draft IMO makes us better as well.

OL/TE's same.

 

DL better due to a combination of health and suspensions last year. Core returns and should be better barring injury.

LB's better due to health as well. Core also returns. If Ragland becomes a bust, then you could say even.

DB's, I'm mixed on. With Gilmore and Darby both gone, you could argue we downgraded the CB's with Gaines. None the less, Micah Hyde is a definitive improvement over last year. Maybe that balances out to being the same. I could see an argument though to say worse.

 

Coaching is a TBD. This is his first year as a HC. I'm most worried right now about how the locker room responds to the trades and Boldin's retirement.

[dpberr]

I'd argue that CB has actually improved. Gaines and White tackle players and are zone corners. Gilmore didn't like tackling at all and Darby couldn't play zone.

 

You could say Gilmore/Darby are the more talented athletes but I offer that Gaines and White are the better football players.

[YoloinOhio]

I'd argue that CB has actually improved. Gaines and White tackle players and are zone corners. Gilmore didn't like tackling at all and Darby couldn't play zone.

 

You could say Gilmore/Darby are the more talented athletes but I offer that Gaines and White are the better football players.

i think that Gilmore and Darby have more experience, and have proven that they can be good in the NFL. If we are just comparing 2017 to 2016 though, given how poorly they played last year, a new system and new players certainly has the potential to be better.

[aristocrat]

the bills had the number 16 offense last year yards wise and if you had say 100 yards to the offense they are 11th(if the starters played the jets game). Now we possibly have a better wr corps and still the best run game in the league. I think if injuries don't kill us this could be around a top 5 offense. 2600 yards rushing and 3400 yards passing. That's actually less rush yards than last year and about 175 yards more passing.

[reginald]

Darby stunk at Florida State, and he stunk in Buffalo. Dumpster fire

 

Gilmore above average at best

 

Goodwin wouldn't start for St John Fisher

 

Woods ran like a hunch back. Never liked him. No yards after catch, So what if he can block.

 

Wasted roster spot with Reggie Bush

 

Safeties were a joke, whoever they were

 

Spikes stunk

 

3 confused guys calling defensive plays at same time

 

No Dareus first 6 games

 

Carpenter went bad

 

That Douzable guy was a joke

 

Percy Harvin, Glen Gronkowski....what were they thinking?

 

Fired Offensive coordinator after week 3

 

Rex stunk at clock management, throwing the red flag, Everything, etc.

 

1st 2 draft picks had surgery

 

No/very little Sammy in 2016

 

GM

 

EJ

 

What else?

 

 

And That team was 7-9. Can't imagine being worse in 2017-18.

[Bills Pimpin']

Darby stunk at Florida State, and he stunk in Buffalo. Dumpster fire

 

Gilmore above average at best

 

Goodwin wouldn't start for St John Fisher

 

Woods ran like a hunch back. Never liked him. No yards after catch, So what if he can block.

 

Wasted roster spot with Reggie Bush

 

Safeties were a joke, whoever they were

 

Spikes stunk

 

3 confused guys calling defensive plays at same time

 

No Dareus first 6 games

 

Carpenter went bad

 

That Douzable guy was a joke

 

Percy Harvin, Glen Gronkowski....what were they thinking?

 

Fired Offensive coordinator after week 3

 

Rex stunk at clock management, throwing the red flag, Everything, etc.

 

1st 2 draft picks had surgery

 

No/very little Sammy in 2016

 

GM

 

EJ

 

What else?

 

 

And That team was 7-9. Can't imagine being worse in 2017-18.

This needs to be posted in like 15 threads.

[re enlightener]

Someone please enlighten me

Did someone ask for me?

 

Maybe I can help, but as I read your post I see you have already attained enlightenment. I agree with most everything you said, we could have kept woods or even goodwin and been in a much better position at wr though.

[Mat68]

Worse:

 

RB

OL - I believe the scheme switch will have an impact.

WR

CB

Offensive coaching

 

Better:

DL

LB

Defensive coaching

Are we talking on paper week 1 last year or what was on the feild all year? I think Wr is much improved depth wise. Watkins is good but was ineffective much the year.

 

Agreed.

 

I think we're going to struggle to score 20 points per game. It's going to be a throwback to when we used to have Dick Jauron as HC.

The Jets, Jaguars, Rams, 49ers, Bears are some I can think of that will be much worst. Buffalo will run the ball well. Jones and Matthews is better than Woods and Goodwin. Buffalo will finish the year better than last year. Will it result into the playoffs? I dont think so but they will have a shot.

[sjjr]

Darby stunk at Florida State, and he stunk in Buffalo. Dumpster fire

 

Gilmore above average at best

 

Goodwin wouldn't start for St John Fisher

 

Woods ran like a hunch back. Never liked him. No yards after catch, So what if he can block.

 

Wasted roster spot with Reggie Bush

 

Safeties were a joke, whoever they were

 

Spikes stunk

 

3 confused guys calling defensive plays at same time

 

No Dareus first 6 games

 

Carpenter went bad

 

That Douzable guy was a joke

 

Percy Harvin, Glen Gronkowski....what were they thinking?

 

Fired Offensive coordinator after week 3

 

Rex stunk at clock management, throwing the red flag, Everything, etc.

 

1st 2 draft picks had surgery

 

No/very little Sammy in 2016

 

GM

 

EJ

 

What else?

 

 

And That team was 7-9. Can't imagine being worse in 2017-18.

Agreed

[PolishDave]

Someone please enlighten me on where they think the talent from last year's team is better than this year's. Other than WR, if Sammy was healthy last year, it's hard to argue a position group this year isn't as good or better than last and we have 6 picks in the first 3 rounds next year.

 

QB's much better due to backups

RB/FB equal. Could potentially argue Mike G and Felton are better than

Williams/Tolbert I guess.

OL equal

TE equal

WR worse if Sammy healthy, but Zay may be great

 

DL better

LB better

Safety better and not even close.

CB equal, but I am not a big Gilmore fan.

 

Coaching better.

 

Can anyone argue a position group is better this year?

 

Homer post.

 

QB is same.

OL = dumpster fire if Glenn is out - last year the psycho backup was very good

WR = downgrade without Sammy = zero chemistry - which Tyrod has shown himself to suck without

DL = same don't know how you think it got better personnel wise

LB = don't know - could say equal at best - no way Humber is going to be better than Zach Brown was for most of last year

CB = downgrade - almost without question - Plus I think both Gilmore and Darby would have been ball hawks if this defense gets a pass rush - could have been great years for both here

 

Yuu think coaching is automatically going to be better just because of NO REX? If you think that you are fooling yourself. As much as people hate Rex for being Rex, the guy had a ****-ton of experience as a head coach. Our current guy looked like he was a little kid who had his bicycle stolen from him in the last game.

 

I HOPE McDermott is an awesome coach. So far he only conjures images of Dick Jauron. And I don't know if Dick Jauron could out-coach Rex Ryan. Truth is you have absolutely no evidence to say McDermott is likely to be a better coach than Rex was - regardless of how much you hate Rex.