Whaley = Donahoe

[baskingridgebillsfan]

Whaley is fine. Judge him against the rest of the league. His failure is not securing a franchise qb, if you are going to judge him only on that he has good company.

The guy goes out finds talent that the coaches ask for and he works the free agent system well. The sammie trade hasn't worked out yet, so he has to own that. I still don't hate the idea.

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

Whaley is fine. Judge him against the rest of the league. His failure is not securing a franchise qb, if you are going to judge him only on that he has good company.

The guy goes out finds talent that the coaches ask for and he works the free agent system well. The sammie trade hasn't worked out yet, so he has to own that. I still don't hate the idea.

+1

[jeffismagic]

So if Lawson and Ragland are studs this year, Washington and Seymour are good starters, Williams becomes a solid back up running back and Cardale grabs the #2 QB spot and Listenbee contributes at WR then I guess you can all put the poor draft crap to bed and maybe finally give Whaley a little bit of credit. That was just last years draft. Let'

s go back two years ago and we have a starting corner in Darby, a starting guard with pro bowl potential in Miller, O'leary who is still contributing. Whaley can't help the fact that Karlos Williams, a stud rookie, has personal issues with weight and drugs. Dezmin Lewis is also still hanging around. Three years ago we have a potential star in Watkins, a solid lineman who looks to be on the rise in Kouandjio, a starter at linebacker in Brown, and a late round pick in Henderson that if he wasn't battling health issues would be an incredible find. I think Whaley hits way more in the draft than people give him credit for and does much better than the average team in the NFL. He also finds some nice free agent pick ups which has been well documented. Be careful what you wish for we could get another Terry Bledsoe, Marv Levy, Tom Donahoe or Buddy Nix.

Last year's draft was a total trainwreck. 3 picks on an inside linebacker who people wonder if he can play 3 downs. An injured DE that they move to linebacker. A DT in the third when they should have taken the QB they liked and even then, got outplayed by DTs taken later by other teams.

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

Last year's draft was a total trainwreck. 3 picks on an inside linebacker who people wonder if he can play 3 downs. An injured DE that they move to linebacker. A DT in the third when they should have taken the QB they liked and even then, got outplayed by DTs taken later by other teams.

I will agree to disagree with you. Lawson is now playing where he fits best and there is no reason to think he will not be a dominating player. Ragland was the top LB coming out of college and the fans will fall in love with the toughness and energy he brings to the defense. Washington did hit the rookie wall last year but I think he will be a very important piece this season as he will only continue to get better. I don't see a trainwreck draft at all.

[BADOLBILZ]

You are right that the running game is Buffalo's identity. That's one of the main structural problems for this antiquated franchise because a ground and pound approach to the game is archaic in the modern NFL. No one can dispute the fact that the Bills are one of the best running teams in the league. What does that limited approach to the offense get you? Certainly not enough wins, especially against good teams.

 

The reality is that an emphasis is placed on the running game out of necessity. It is done in order to mask the limitations of its qb/s. It seems to not have occurred to the geniuses who run the football operation that by upgrading the qb position you will also in effect be upgrading a multitude of positions.

 

The Bills have not had a legitimate franchise qb for over twenty years. The reluctance to take a meaningful action to address the most important issue that has crippled this franchise has gotten beyond being perplexing to the point of being weird.

 

While I would love to see an improved passing game.........REALITY CHECK: The Seahawks and Broncos won 2 of the last 4 SB's with offenses that did not throw the ball well.

 

I suppose we can always hope they turn into a passing team in one hand and shite in the other and see which one fills up first............but considering that they just hired the OC from that Broncos SB team and the HC was the DC of the Panthers team that ran their $25M QB like a RB with Ted Ginn as WR1 to 14 wins and that same SB game........sure seems like a "when in Rome" situation if there ever was one.

[Real McClappy]

You are right that the running game is Buffalo's identity. That's one of the main structural problems for this antiquated franchise because a ground and pound approach to the game is archaic in the modern NFL. No one can dispute the fact that the Bills are one of the best running teams in the league. What does that limited approach to the offense get you? Certainly not enough wins, especially against good teams.

 

The reality is that an emphasis is placed on the running game out of necessity. It is done in order to mask the limitations of its qb/s. It seems to not have occurred to the geniuses who run the football operation that by upgrading the qb position you will also in effect be upgrading a multitude of positions.

 

The Bills have not had a legitimate franchise qb for over twenty years. The reluctance to take a meaningful action to address the most important issue that has crippled this franchise has gotten beyond being perplexing to the point of being weird.

 

Great post man I 100% agree with you.

[jeffismagic]

 

While I would love to see an improved passing game.........REALITY CHECK: The Seahawks and Broncos won 2 of the last 4 SB's with offenses that did not throw the ball well.

 

I suppose we can always hope they turn into a passing team in one hand and shite in the other and see which one fills up first............but considering that they just hired the OC from that Broncos SB team and the HC was the DC of the Panthers team that ran their $25M QB like a RB with Ted Ginn as WR1 to 14 wins and that same SB game........sure seems like a "when in Rome" situation if there ever was one.

 

It's hard to create one of the top defenses in the NFL in the last 15 years. Both of those teams were some of the best defenses to come along in the NFL recently. Neither team seems to be a model we could follow. The Seahawks absolutely killed multiple drafts where they were finding Pro-Bowlers in late rounds.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

It's hard to create one of the top defenses in the NFL in the last 15 years. Both of those teams were some of the best defenses to come along in the NFL recently. Neither team seems to be a model we could follow. The Seahawks absolutely killed multiple drafts where they were finding Pro-Bowlers in late rounds.

 

 

Oh it's much harder to get a franchise QB than a dominant defense.

 

I'm all for getting one and no prob with drafting one in round 1 every year until they do..........but it's a bizarre argument to be like......"ya' know, I want to change our identity so let's lessen our strengths elsewhere so we aren't so good at that". Utter nonsense.

[jeffismagic]

 

 

Oh it's much harder to get a franchise QB than a dominant defense.

 

I'm all for getting one and no prob with drafting one in round 1 every year until they do..........but it's a bizarre argument to be like......"ya' know, I want to change our identity so let's lessen our strengths elsewhere so we aren't so good at that". Utter nonsense.

I disagree. Harder to create one of the top 3 defenses of the last decade.

[BADOLBILZ]

I disagree. Harder to create one of the top 3 defenses of the last decade.

 

You are just drawing some random box around the idea that defense without great QB play can only win in a rare circumstance.

 

Not the case.

 

The Niners had a very recent run of championship appearances and a narrow miss in the SB with a running QB.

 

The Ravens that beat them were a defense dominated team.

 

Panthers that were heavy favs over the Broncos had a tremendous D and breezed to the SB where they outplayed that Denver D statistically and only lost because their QB was AWFUL that day.

 

It's harder to find an elite QB like Brady or Rogers......just is. Sorry to disagree but , facts, you know.

[jeffismagic]

 

You are just drawing some random box around the idea that defense without great QB play can only win in a rare circumstance.

 

Not the case.

 

The Niners had a very recent run of championship appearances and a narrow miss in the SB with a running QB.

 

The Ravens that beat them were a defense dominated team.

 

Panthers that were heavy favs over the Broncos had a tremendous D and breezed to the SB where they outplayed that Denver D statistically and only lost because their QB was AWFUL that day.

 

It's harder to find an elite QB like Brady or Rogers......just is. Sorry to disagree but , facts, you know.

 

Who said I don't want a good defense? We are talking the difference between very good and elite defenses.

[JohnC]

 

While I would love to see an improved passing game.........REALITY CHECK: The Seahawks and Broncos won 2 of the last 4 SB's with offenses that did not throw the ball well.

 

I suppose we can always hope they turn into a passing team in one hand and shite in the other and see which one fills up first............but considering that they just hired the OC from that Broncos SB team and the HC was the DC of the Panthers team that ran their $25M QB like a RB with Ted Ginn as WR1 to 14 wins and that same SB game........sure seems like a "when in Rome" situation if there ever was one.

I would be ecstatic at having a Russell Wilson caliber qb taking the snaps for the Bills. Denver had a historically dominating defense that trampled over the opposition. It was a unique case. However, they couldn't sustain their success with the loss of players due to contract constraints. If you recall it didn't take Elway very long to maneuver back into the first round to get another qb, Lynch. And by the way Seattle also a top tier defense.

 

The argument too often being made to justify our inadequate qb play that has lasted longer than a generation is that there are only a few exceptional qbs available. That's a straw man argument that doesn't address the issue that is being raised. Without a doubt elite qbs are a rare commodity. No one is arguing otherwise. That is not to say that the Bills haven't had the opportunities to acquire good (not great) qbs that would allow a team to be consistently competitive.

 

Kirk Cousins, Russell Wilson, Prescott and you can add Dalton are not elite qbs. And I'm certainly not foolish enough to make that exaggerated claim. However, they are capable or going to be capable and legitimate franchise qbs. What you and others are doing is essentially arguing that because you can't find a special talent at qb that you absolved of responsibility for not getting a capable qb. That falls with the dictum of making perfect the enemy of the good.

Edited April 19, 2017 by JohnC

[jeffismagic]

I would be ecstatic at having a Russell Wilson caliber qb taking the snaps for the Bills. Denver had a historically dominating defense that trampled over the opposition. It was a unique case. However, they couldn't sustain their success with the loss of players due to contract constraints. If you recall it didn't take Elway very long to maneuver back into the first round to get another qb, Lynch. And by the way Seattle also a top tier defense.

 

The argument too often being made to justify our inadequate qb play that has lasted longer than a generation is that there are only a few exceptional qbs available. That's a straw man argument that doesn't address the issue that is being raised. Without a doubt elite qbs are a rare commodity. No one is arguing otherwise. That is not to say that the Bills haven't had the opportunities to acquire good (not great) qbs that would allow a team to be consistently competitive.

 

Kirk Cousins, Russell Wilson, Prescott and you can add Dalton are not elite qbs. And I'm certainly not foolish enough to make that exaggerated claim. However, they are capable or going to be capable and legitimate franchise qbs. What you and others are doing is essentially arguing that because you can't find a special talent at qb that you absolved of responsibility for not getting a capable qb. That falls with the dictum of making perfect the enemy of the good.

 

The TT can do it crew say Derek Carr is not that good. The guy who led his team to 12 wins in a tough division with a crappy defense that was worse than Buffalo's last year.

[JohnC]

 

The TT can do it crew say Derek Carr is not that good. The guy who led his team to 12 wins in a tough division with a crappy defense that was worse than Buffalo's last year.

If you put Derek Carr on the Bills the trajectory and dynamics for this lagging franchise dramatically changes to the upside. Terry Bridgewater isn't as explosively as talented as a passer but he is a solid qb (now injured) who also could have the Bills a competitive team----assuming that stupendously incompetent Rex was not associated with the team. The point is that the Bills have had many opportunities to secure a good qb but they chose to pass allowing others to benefit.

 

What a lot of people who take the opposite view we take on the qb issue fail to acknowledge is that by securing that position the team has a lot more draft and roster options.

 

With Buffalo there is a tired a stale approach to the game that has imprisoned this organization and fan base. It seems that so many people are comfortable with their mediocre status quo status that they are unwilling to try a different approach to break out of this morass. It's so sad.

[jeffismagic]

If you put Derek Carr on the Bills the trajectory and dynamics for this lagging franchise dramatically changes to the upside. Terry Bridgewater isn't as explosively as talented as a passer but he is a solid qb (now injured) who also could have the Bills a competitive team----assuming that stupendously incompetent Rex was not associated with the team. The point is that the Bills have had many opportunities to secure a good qb but they chose to pass allowing others to benefit.

 

What a lot of people who take the opposite view we take on the qb issue fail to acknowledge is that by securing that position the team has a lot more draft and roster options.

 

With Buffalo there is a tired a stale approach to the game that has imprisoned this organization and fan base. It seems that so many people are comfortable with their mediocre status quo status that they are unwilling to try a different approach to break out of this morass. It's so sad.

 

Don't forget John Murphy and Chris Brown. They are trying to sell fans on the idea that drafting a QB is risky while taking CB's and LB's is safe and prudent. Bills have their own propaganda arms to sell the fans on mediocrity.

 

I expect them to get Chad Kelly so they can sell fans on another cool story line as Sean the Wrestler puts people to sleep.

[JohnC]

 

Don't forget John Murphy and Chris Brown. They are trying to sell fans on the idea that drafting a QB is risky while taking CB's and LB's is safe and prudent. Bills have their own propaganda arms to sell the fans on mediocrity.

 

I expect them to get Chad Kelly so they can sell fans on another cool story line as Sean the Wrestler puts people to sleep.

There is no doubt that drafting a qb is a risky proposition. That reinforces, not rebuts, the argument that you have to continue to try to secure the position. No one can deny that a CB and LB can more quickly play than a qb. But for me I would prefer having a good to solid franchise qb over an all pro CB or LB player. That's how important the position is.

 

With respect to Chad Kelly I want to see him succeed. Living and playing in western NY is not the best place for him to develop his game. As far as I am concerned his legendary talent is a myth created by people who have a delusional belief in the past.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Donahoe was a great GM for the Steelers. Year after year they lost top talent to free agency and he always came up with great replacements. Someone should have told him that things change when Buffaloitis infects you.

 

BTW, Whaley is a good GM but this Gilleslee thing may impact my perspective.

[JohnC]

Donahoe was a great GM for the Steelers. Year after year they lost top talent to free agency and he always came up with great replacements. Someone should have told him that things change when Buffaloitis infects you.

 

BTW, Whaley is a good GM but this Gilleslee thing may impact my perspective.

Donahoe had full authority to make football decisions in Buffalo. His mistakes were his mistakes. When you have antagonized a good portion of the organization and then falter it is not surprising that many people didn't come to his support.

 

I had great expectations when Donahoe came to Buffalo. The outcome was very disappointing. It's certainly not easy working for Ralph but Donahoe's demise was done by his own hands. Hubris and arrogance don't help your cause when the elevator is going down.

[Jerry Jabber]

Donahoe had full authority to make football decisions in Buffalo. His mistakes were his mistakes. When you have antagonized a good portion of the organization and then falter it is not surprising that many people didn't come to his support.

 

I had great expectations when Donahoe came to Buffalo. The outcome was very disappointing. It's certainly not easy working for Ralph but Donahoe's demise was done by his own hands. Hubris and arrogance don't help your cause when the elevator is going down.

 

I agree 100% It's rumored Gregggg Williams wanted to draft Drew Brees, but Donahoe was against it.

[JohnC]

 

I agree 100% It's rumored Gregggg Williams wanted to draft Drew Brees, but Donahoe was against it.

I thought Donahoe's first draft with the trade down to get some extra picks was a terrific draft. It raised my expectation. Then he worked so hard to demonstrate how smart he was that he too often out-smarted himself. After he left things started to spiral downward. I have recently been harsh toward Whaley but to me he represented a break from the past into a more modern approach to structuring the organization.