DriveFor1Outta5 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Bill, Gunner said it perfect. I mean is the Julio Jones deal killing the Falcons? Besides Matt Ryan, it's the main reason they made a SB. And Jones' stats in his first 3 years are very close to Sammy's, except Sammy plays in maybe the worst passing offense in the NFL. We all try way too hard to analyze everything. If the Bills switched qbs with NE or GB, what's their record and what's those 2 teams record? NE misses on picks all the one but Brady covers everything up. I do agree that you should be trading down rather than up unless it's for a QB. Hopefully, he has learned that. But to deny there isn't talent on this roster is foolish. It's one of the reasons I hated Rex. He inherited a 9-7 team with a top 4 defense and destroyed it. The Falcons had Matt Ryan before they went all in on Jones. This makes that pick far more sensible than the Sammy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 The Falcons had Matt Ryan before they went all in on Jones. This makes that pick far more sensible than the Sammy one. Don't disagree but that's where the discount between Whaley and Marrone began. Whaley had a similar plan as the Falcons but they plugged the plug on EJ. But any qb would love to throw to Sammy. That's why I think we need to draft a guy this year to start that relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriveFor1Outta5 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Don't disagree but that's where the discount between Whaley and Marrone began. Whaley had a similar plan as the Falcons but they plugged the plug on EJ. But any qb would love to throw to Sammy. That's why I think we need to draft a guy this year to start that relationship. Matt Ryan had already proven a lot more than EJ Manuel did at the time each team went all in on a reciever. Whaley had no idea at the time if EJ would pan out to be a successful QB. The team wasn't one player away from a title. The Falcons thought they were one player away from competing for championships. In that situation you can afford to lose draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Matt Ryan had already proven a lot more than EJ Manuel did at the time each team went all in on a reciever. Whaley had no idea at the time if EJ would pan out to be a successful QB. The team wasn't one player away from a title. The Falcons thought they were one player away from competing for championships. In that situation you can afford to lose draft picks. Fair but the Raiders did a similar thing with Cooper for Carr. The major difference is they didn't have to trade up, which is huge. But when you go basically 7-9 every year, you have to take some risks to get elite talent. And that's why I don't want to re-sign Tyrod. It doesn't really get us anywhere different. I think the offense is a good situation for a qb to set into. And even if a new qb sucks, it's still better to go 2-14 than 7-9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Fair but the Raiders did a similar thing with Cooper for Carr. The major difference is they didn't have to trade up, which is huge. But when you go basically 7-9 every year, you have to take some risks to get elite talent. And that's why I don't want to re-sign Tyrod. It doesn't really get us anywhere different. I think the offense is a good situation for a qb to set into. And even if a new qb sucks, it's still better to go 2-14 than 7-9. So they didn't do the same thing then, at all? Not to mention rookie Carr > rookie EJ. Edited February 21, 2017 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 And yet he was on the hotseat after his 3rd season. What changed? He found a Quarterback. It is as simple as that folks. The bad GMs are the ones who have found a Quarterback and still can't win.... the mediocre ones have haven't found a Quarterback... and the good ones find a Quarterback and then plug in pieces around him. I think Whaley is an excellent pro personnel guy who has generally done a good job with FA. He has been an average drafter who hasn't been helped by the flip flopping of coaches and schemes. Coaches and schemes brought in under his watch. And at least so far I'd agree with you on the overall good job he's done with FAs but I would say his drafting has been below average, though trading away a first round pick surely hurt him, but it was he himself who made that trade. Last year, of the last two years' first and second round picks, Ryan was playing with one 2nd rounder and no firsts. That helps to understand why things didn't go all that well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest K-GunJimKelly12 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Still waiting for one of you to explain the Dareus contract. How does a competent GM/Organization hand that contract out. It's nobody's fault though right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Bill, Gunner said it perfect. I mean is the Julio Jones deal killing the Falcons? Besides Matt Ryan, it's the main reason they made a SB. And Jones' stats in his first 3 years are very close to Sammy's, except Sammy plays in maybe the worst passing offense in the NFL. We all try way too hard to analyze everything. If the Bills switched qbs with NE or GB, what's their record and what's those 2 teams record? NE misses on picks all the one but Brady covers everything up. I do agree that you should be trading down rather than up unless it's for a QB. Hopefully, he has learned that. But to deny there isn't talent on this roster is foolish. It's one of the reasons I hated Rex. He inherited a 9-7 team with a top 4 defense and destroyed it. The Julio Jones deal did indeed seem to kill the Falcons for two or three years. They had a ton of holes they couldn't fill with draft picks. It hurt them a lot. Might they have made the Super Bowl with Torrey Smith or Randall Cobb - both available later in Julio's draft, and all those draft picks? It's not clear but it's certainly possible. Certainly if the Falcons win a title, it will put the argument to rest. Winning a title validates everything. It's arguable this year showed the trade was a success, though I'm not 100% convinced. At least the Julio Jones draft wasn't considered even before the draft as one of the strongest draft for WRs in history. Edited February 21, 2017 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Still waiting for one of you to explain the Dareus contract. How does a competent GM/Organization hand that contract out. It's nobody's fault though right? He doesn't play through suspensions we get the money back, he plays we get a playmaker. The people who wanted us to start building in further reductions obviously didn't want Dareus to stay here because he wasn't going to take that deal when he wouldn't have needed to on the market. I have no issue with that contract and we get salary cap credit when he misses games suspended - that is a league rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest K-GunJimKelly12 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 He doesn't play through suspensions we get the money back, he plays we get a playmaker. The people who wanted us to start building in further reductions obviously didn't want Dareus to stay here because he wasn't going to take that deal when he wouldn't have needed to on the market. I have no issue with that contract and we get salary cap credit when he misses games suspended - that is a league rule.d You have a cap credid of roughly $1.8 million from his suspension. Meanwhile you have nearly $20 million a year tied up in a player you know you can't rely on. Getting some cap relief the season after he is suspended pales in comparison to having to having that much tied up into him. What happens if he gets suspended this season? Then we have nearly $20 million tied up in a player that is useless to us during that season. Who cares if we get cap relief the following season. It is a terrible contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 He doesn't play through suspensions we get the money back, he plays we get a playmaker. The people who wanted us to start building in further reductions obviously didn't want Dareus to stay here because he wasn't going to take that deal when he wouldn't have needed to on the market. I have no issue with that contract and we get salary cap credit when he misses games suspended - that is a league rule. You think it would have been impossible to sign Dareus without the "smoke weed and it's all good" clause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 You have a cap credid of roughly $1.8 million from his suspension. Meanwhile you have nearly $20 million a year tied up in a player you know you can't rely on. Getting some cap relief the season after he is suspended pales in comparison to having to having that much tied up into him. What happens if he gets suspended this season? Then we have nearly $20 million tied up in a player that is useless to us during that season. Who cares if we get cap relief the following season. It is a terrible contract. We don't pay him for games he doesn't play through suspension. You alternative was Marcel walking because if you think for a second that he would have accepted some sort of behaviour escalators from the Bills when he could have walked on the back of two dominant campaigns to any number of teams in the league without those escalators you are mad. Whaley has done bad contracts.... Charles Clay, Percy Harvin (twice), Chris Williams. He isn't perfect. But the narrative on here about the Dareus deal doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If your preference was to let Marcel walk, fine, say that. But if you think there was some magical 3rd option you are mad. You think it would have been impossible to sign Dareus without the "smoke weed and it's all good" clause? I think it would have been impossible to get him to take a deal with some automatic salary downgrades because there would have been teams willing to pay him without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 We don't pay him for games he doesn't play through suspension. You alternative was Marcel walking because if you think for a second that he would have accepted some sort of behaviour escalators from the Bills when he could have walked on the back of two dominant campaigns to any number of teams in the league without those escalators you are mad. Whaley has done bad contracts.... Charles Clay, Percy Harvin (twice), Chris Williams. He isn't perfect. But the narrative on here about the Dareus deal doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If your preference was to let Marcel walk, fine, say that. But if you think there was some magical 3rd option you are mad. I think it would have been impossible to get him to take a deal with some automatic salary downgrades because there would have been teams willing to pay him without. Like who? Is Dareus the first great defensive player who has gotten suspended? You forget that his contract was universally described as unique. To me, that says it's built into everyone else's contract. And that flies in the face of "other teams would do it," because, you know, they never have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 And yet he was on the hotseat after his 3rd season. What changed? He found a Quarterback. It is as simple as that folks. The bad GMs are the ones who have found a Quarterback and still can't win.... the mediocre ones have haven't found a Quarterback... and the good ones find a Quarterback and then plug in pieces around him. I think Whaley is an excellent pro personnel guy who has generally done a good job with FA. He has been an average drafter who hasn't been helped by the flip flopping of coaches and schemes. Do you know what elevated the ranking of McKenzie as a GM? You said it---the drafting of Carr. Do you know what has lowered the ranking of Whaley? Actions such as the bypassing on Carr when he had the opportunity to draft him, even with a trade down. Whaley was bold in drafting Watkins by giving up another first round pick to move up a few spaces to select him in a receiver rich draft year. It would have made more sense for this organization that lacked a franchise qb to be bold and take a risk to select a quality qb prospect before using that expensive draft maneuver for a position that had an abundance of very good prospects. People can discuss how good a job he has done as a GM with his personnel decisions. The positive personnel moves are being squandered because he hasn't been able to adequately address the qb position. Until he does that he can't be considered successful. If one rates his drafts collectively they have been mediocre. The draft is the bloodline of a franchise. (Which you acknowledge.) You can blame the change in staff and schemes as an excuse for the team's mediocre record under his stewardship. That has absolutely nothing to do with the qb situation which is his responsibility. His record is his record. It is a stretch to say it is average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prickly Pete Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Not sure how people can know enough about every GM in the league, or how much they are responsible for their team's success? I guess we know a bit more about our own GM, but who here can really compare say, the Titans GM vs. the Vikings GM? It's nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommonCents Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Not sure how people can know enough about every GM in the league, or how much they are responsible for their team's success? I guess we know a bit more about our own GM, but who here can really compare say, the Titans GM vs. the Vikings GM? It's nonsense. Jon Robinson is another solid draft away from getting a lot of attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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