CIA tail led to Mandella's incarceration in '62

[B-Man]

From the BBC link in the OP

 

The events leading up the the arrest of Nelson Mandela, on a dark night near Durban in 1962, have always been murky. In the era of Cold War politics, Mandela, then leader of the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC), was considered a terrorist and a threat to the West.

As Mr Rickard put it, he was "the most dangerous communist" outside of the Soviet Union

[Tiberius]

 

IBM made computers. South Africa used computers to register and track blacks. Ergo, you claim that IBM is complicit in apartheid.

 

So why aren't machete makers complicit in the Rwandan genocide?

 

 

 

 

Lol, yup, you are a simpleton clap, clap, clap

What the !@#$ are you talking about now?

 

And Mandela was a communist...which explains the socio-political dynamic under which he was trailed by the CIA, you !@#$ing retard. Don't judge historical decisions by contemporary mores.

Yes, so in the name anti-communism we murdered, oppressed and bombed nations all over the world. As to judging historical decisions, they were questioned in the past at the time. Go ahead and insult, but you know I'm right. I mean under your "logic" we were fighting the good war in Vietnam. Which is laughable

[3rdnlng]

Well, at least we didn't drone them.

[Deranged Rhino]

Only the least educated, or most insidiously revisionist could possibly look at US foreign policy, and the geo-political canvas in the early 1960's and conclude that the CIA tipped off the arrest of Nelson Mandela because of Apartheid.

 

No argument. It had nothing to do with Apartheid and everything to do with Communism and US business interests in South Africa.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Siding with the most deplorable of regimes in South Africa was good for business though, so yay USA.

 

OK, Osama Bin Laden.

 

[Tiberius]

 

OK, Osama Bin Laden.

 

Osama didn't live under or fight against a terrorist apartheid regime. Its easy to say Mandella was a terrorist, but what he was fighting was even worse, but you don't hear that from, well, you know

[4merper4mer]

Osama didn't live under or fight against a terrorist apartheid regime. Its easy to say Mandella was a terrorist, but what he was fighting was even worse, but you don't hear that from, well, you know

 

 

He was fighting a horrible dehumanizing system in the hopes of installing a different horrible dehumanizing system. At the time, system 2 was more of a threat to to US interests than horrible system 1 as horrible system 1 was isolated. If you are aghast that the US or any country would collaborate with bad actors in an effort to squelch different bad actors, you are outstandingly naive. Your love of horrible system #2 also clouds your ability to understand the nature of the chain of events.

[Tiberius]

 

 

He was fighting a horrible dehumanizing system in the hopes of installing a different horrible dehumanizing system. At the time, system 2 was more of a threat to to US interests than horrible system 1 as horrible system 1 was isolated. If you are aghast that the US or any country would collaborate with bad actors in an effort to squelch different bad actors, you are outstandingly naive. Your love of horrible system #2 also clouds your ability to understand the nature of the chain of events.

So he was bad for fighting back. Gotcha

[Deranged Rhino]

 

OK, Osama Bin Laden.

 

 

It's the truth.

[3rdnlng]

 

 

He was fighting a horrible dehumanizing system in the hopes of installing a different horrible dehumanizing system. At the time, system 2 was more of a threat to to US interests than horrible system 1 as horrible system 1 was isolated. If you are aghast that the US or any country would collaborate with bad actors in an effort to squelch different bad actors, you are outstandingly naive. Your love of horrible system #2 also clouds your ability to understand the nature of the chain of events.

That JFK was just running roughshod over those darkies in Afrika.

[4merper4mer]

So he was bad for fighting back. Gotcha

 

 

That's not what I said at all. In fact it is the opposite. Fighting against apartheid was good. Fighting for communism was bad.

That JFK was just running roughshod over those darkies in Afrika.

 

 

I really don't know what you meant by that at all....mostly because it was incoherent and seemingly racist but it looks like you meant it as a joke. For future reference jokes are supposed to be funny and understandable. If you can't manage both, then one or the other would do.

[Deranged Rhino]

That's not what I said at all. In fact it is the opposite. Fighting against apartheid was good. Fighting for communism was bad.

 

...That's entirely dependent upon perspective though, isn't it? From an American, capitalistic perspective communism was certainly a bigger enemy than fascism (which is what that regime was really about) in the 1960s. But for a black man living in South Africa however that point of view is a little removed from reality.

 

The world was less than two decades removed from communists and capitalists teaming up to thwart fascism, proving how quickly perspectives and alliances can shift on a geopolitical scale. The fascists in South Africa were every bit as bad, if not worse, than the communist empire of the USSR -- but the fascists would buy our goods whereas the communists wouldn't.

 

Not hard to see why we chose the side we did in the 60s.

[3rdnlng]

 

 

That's not what I said at all. In fact it is the opposite. Fighting against apartheid was good. Fighting for communism was bad.

 

 

I really don't know what you meant by that at all....mostly because it was incoherent and seemingly racist but it looks like you meant it as a joke. For future reference jokes are supposed to be funny and understandable. If you can't manage both, then one or the other would do.

Would it help if I typed slower?

[4merper4mer]

 

...That's entirely dependent upon perspective though, isn't it? From an American, capitalistic perspective communism was certainly a bigger enemy than fascism (which is what that regime was really about) in the 1960s. But for a black man living in South Africa however that point of view is a little removed from reality.

 

The world was less than two decades removed from communists and capitalists teaming up to thwart fascism, proving how quickly perspectives and alliances can shift on a geopolitical scale. The fascists in South Africa were every bit as bad, if not worse, than the communist empire of the USSR -- but the fascists would buy our goods whereas the communists wouldn't.

 

Not hard to see why we chose the side we did in the 60s.

I know you're not saying Stalin was a good dude.

 

My point is not that Mandela was doing the wrong thing fighting apartheid. And it had nothing to do with what the US did or did not do. The role of the US is a whole different thing, but then, now and in the future implementing a communist economic system will fail. Smart people know it will fail, even those who advocate it. They do so because it will get them power at the expense of others. At that point in time the commies were trying to spread their influence world wide. The South Africans were pretty well isolated with their particular brand of ruthless evil. I'm sure that went into the thought process between two bad choices. I'm saying there was no right to be had.

 

The economic spoils of doing business with South Africa, although real, were not the reason the US would choose that side. The stop of spreading communism was much more important. This claptrap that everything is done at the behest of evil corporations is way off. Does it exist? Yes. To the point where it was more important and a bigger deciding factor than trying to stop the biggest threat to the world at that time? Common man. What was south Africa at the time.....the world's 193rd biggest economy? Whoop de hoo ha. They had diamonds though so Zsa Zsa was happy I guess.

Would it help if I typed slower?

 

 

I don't think so but go ahead and try. but if your fingers still type the racist words you used the first time I'd recommend not hitting the little "post" icon when you're done because you're only going to nauseate people.

Edited May 16, 2016 by 4merper4mer

[DC Tom]

 

...That's entirely dependent upon perspective though, isn't it? From an American, capitalistic perspective communism was certainly a bigger enemy than fascism (which is what that regime was really about) in the 1960s. But for a black man living in South Africa however that point of view is a little removed from reality.

 

The world was less than two decades removed from communists and capitalists teaming up to thwart fascism, proving how quickly perspectives and alliances can shift on a geopolitical scale. The fascists in South Africa were every bit as bad, if not worse, than the communist empire of the USSR -- but the fascists would buy our goods whereas the communists wouldn't.

 

Not hard to see why we chose the side we did in the 60s.

 

Less than two decades? It was quicker than that.

 

Hell, the whole "grand alliance" was more a matter of convenience than "teaming up" over anything. Ask some older Berliners.

[3rdnlng]

I know you're not saying Stalin was a good dude.

 

My point is not that Mandela was doing the wrong thing fighting apartheid. And it had nothing to do with what the US did or did not do. The role of the US is a whole different thing, but then, now and in the future implementing a communist economic system will fail. Smart people know it will fail, even those who advocate it. They do so because it will get them power at the expense of others. At that point in time the commies were trying to spread their influence world wide. The South Africans were pretty well isolated with their particular brand of ruthless evil. I'm sure that went into the thought process between two bad choices. I'm saying there was no right to be had.

 

The economic spoils of doing business with South Africa, although real, were not the reason the US would choose that side. The stop of spreading communism was much more important. This claptrap that everything is done at the behest of evil corporations is way off. Does it exist? Yes. To the point where it was more important and a bigger deciding factor than trying to stop the biggest threat to the world at that time? Common man. What was south Africa at the time.....the world's 193rd biggest economy? Whoop de hoo ha. They had diamonds though so Zsa Zsa was happy I guess.

 

 

I don't think so but go ahead and try. but if your fingers still type the racist words you used the first time I'd recommend not hitting the little "post" icon when you're done because you're only going to nauseate people.

I guess you just don't get sarcasm, but that's ok, neither did Crayonz.

[4merper4mer]

I guess you just don't get sarcasm, but that's ok, neither did Crayonz.

If that makes you feel better then super. A word of warning though, if EII suddenly starts lol'ing everything you write, it could be a bad signal. Until then.....purple monkey dishwasher.

[Deranged Rhino]

The South Africans were pretty well isolated with their particular brand of ruthless evil. I'm sure that went into the thought process between two bad choices. I'm saying there was no right to be had.

 

 

No doubt.

 

 

 

 

This claptrap that everything is done at the behest of evil corporations is way off.

 

 

 

For the record, that's not my argument. I do not believe that everything is done at the behest of evil corporations -- or even that corporations are evil. I own a corporation. I speak often in extremes because I'm prone to the dramatic for the sake of either making a point poetically or making a joke. I do believe what we're witnessing today in terms of our political system and corporations is different and troublesome; but not that every corporation is evil or that there's an old man twirling his mustache while watching his devious plans unfold. Nor am I extolling the virtues of murderous regimes of any kind.

 

Just so we're clear;)

 

 

 

Less than two decades? It was quicker than that.

 

Hell, the whole "grand alliance" was more a matter of convenience than "teaming up" over anything. Ask some older Berliners.

 

No disagreement.

[Tiberius]

If the communists were going to help fight against apartheid then I can't see how anyone can blame Mandella from accepting their help. The US sure as hell was not going to do anything to help. Just look at Reagan's policy towards that racist government

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I'm sorry. I know Mandela is looked upon as some sort of Christ-like figure, but he was a terrorist and a communist in his youth, actively working to subvert OTHER governments in africa. We shouldn't apologize for having treated him as a terrorist.