birdog1960 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 You didn't answer the question(s)... at all. Now who's obfuscating? I didn't ask about the patient, I asked about YOU. Would you examine him yourself or would you rely upon the previous diagnoses of the doctors he saw before you? the question is "what is an expert"? and by implication "why do I consider the author of that guardian article an expert"? asked and answered. regarding your other questions you can piss off. you're rude and they're not relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 the question is "what is an expert"? and by implication "why do I consider the author of that guardian article an expert"? asked and answered. regarding your other questions you can piss off. you're rude and they're not relevant. That wasn't the question I asked you, nor was it the one you responded to. I asked for YOUR opinion because you're the one I'm having a discussion with. You've admitted that you don't have to read the material to determine whether or not it was written by an expert, you've also admitted you take hard line stances on issues you yourself have no information on. I've asked you if you can see the danger inherent in that kind of intellectual outsourcing -- which cuts against everything a true liberal is supposed to stand for and believe -- and you've responded to this by dodging the question. It's ENTIRELY relevant. Again you're obfuscating and running away, you have the intellectual courage of the cowardly lion. If a patient comes to you and asks for a second opinion, do you examine the patient yourself first or just rely on the "expert" diagnosis he received prior to visiting your office? For your reference, here are the questions I asked: Are you suggesting you've read more of the authors work? Or is it true you've only read the CV and the article he wrote? ah, let's add another qualifier to the ppp definition of expert: "can only be identified by others that have read his/her works". Not what I said (try to pay attention, I know nuance isn't your strong suit), I asked if you have read his other works. It's an appropriate question considering you're lauding him as an expert based entirely on his resume rather than the content of his work. \ Isn't it awfully shortsighted to call someone an expert when you're unfamiliar with their work and views outside of an opinion piece? don't accept the premise. I haven't read Milton friedman's unabridged works on economics yet he is widely lauded as an expert and has the repsect, if not agreement of others in his field that are widely considered experts. I feel confident calling him an expert based on any standard definition. do you not? but please, let's obfuscate just a bit more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 An argument to an authority he's more than likely never read. you conveniently left this out. it begs the question of what is an authority (expert) but you knew that. there's also this really common fallacy used here often. it's called lying. back to ignore. you're not worth another second. should've stuck to my guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) you conveniently left this out. it begs the question of what is an authority (expert) but you knew that. there's also this really common fallacy used here often. it's called lying. back to ignore. you're not worth another second. should've stuck to my guns. If you have me on ignore you're a bigger coward and hypocrite than even I knew. Nothing like a liberal who believes in whitewashing history, silencing dissenting opinion, and running from an honest debate. I haven't been rude, nor have I lied -- unless you think being rude is defined as someone who disagrees with your opinions. In that case, I'm VERY rude since you're single handedly making a mockery of one of the core principles of intellectualism and liberalism (thinking for yourself) while claiming to carry their flag. That comment was NOT directed at you (yes it was about you) but I asked you direct questions in an attempt to get to a real understanding of your position and because you know the answers you'll give to them will hurt your previous stance in this thread you're DESPERATE to change the topic. Again, if a patient came to you asking for a second opinion would you examine him yourself or would you simply rely upon the diagnosis from the "expert" doctor he already saw? Edited January 12, 2016 by Deranged Rhino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 If you have me on ignore you're a bigger coward and hypocrite than even I knew. Nothing like a liberal who believes in whitewashing history, silencing dissenting opinion, and running from an honest debate. I haven't been rude, nor have I lied -- unless you think being rude is defined as someone who disagrees with your opinions. In that case, I'm VERY rude since you're single handedly making a mockery of one of the core principles of intellectualism and liberalism (thinking for yourself) while claiming to carry their flag. That comment was NOT directed at you (yes it was about you) but I asked you direct questions and because you know the answers you'll give to them will hurt your previous stance in this thread you're DESPERATE to change the topic. Again, if a patient came to you asking for a second opinion would you examine him yourself or would you simply rely upon the diagnosis from the "expert" doctor he already saw? absolute last response, so help me. if a patient asked a second opinion of another doctor that I knew to be an expert by reputation, publications, outcomes data or any combination of these measures I would give that patient my opinion. whether or not I agreed with the other expert on this particular case would not change my opinion of her as an expert. it's an irrelevant question as yours so often are. you're really not very bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) absolute last response, so help me. if a patient asked a second opinion of another doctor that I knew to be an expert by reputation, publications, outcomes data or any combination of these measures I would give that patient my opinion. (not what I asked) whether or not I agreed with the other expert on this particular case would not change my opinion of her as an expert. it's an irrelevant question as yours so often are. you're really not very bright. It's only an irrelevant question when you twist the question from what I asked into one you wish to answer. Try answering the question I asked -- for someone who's calling me dumb you are coming off as borderline illiterate with your inability to comprehend what I'm asking. I'll try again: I did NOT ask about the expert, I did not say the patient was asking to vet the doctor. I asked what YOU WOULD DO as the doctor. Would you re-examine the patient and give your own diagnosis or simply rely upon and regurgitate the "expert" opinion of the previous doctors who examined the patient?? This is a very relevant question to your position.... Edited January 12, 2016 by Deranged Rhino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 You don't accept the premise that in order to have a valid opinion on the material you must first read the material? Seriously !@#$ing retarded. And he doesn't even realize that he links to other people's opinions, then discusses their credentials and not their opinions. How brain-damaged do you have to be to do that, and claim it's not an appeal to authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 It's only an irrelevant question when you twist the question from what I asked into one you wish to answer. Try answering the question I asked -- for someone who's calling me dumb you are coming off as borderline illiterate with your inability to comprehend what I'm asking. I'll try again: I did NOT ask about the expert, I did not say the patient was asking to vet the doctor. I asked what YOU WOULD DO as the doctor. Would you re-examine the patient and give your own diagnosis or simply rely upon and regurgitate the "expert" opinion of the previous doctors who examined the patient?? This is a very relevant question to your position.... what about. "I would give my opinion" do you not understand? Yes, I would give an independent diagnosis, whether or not it would be "my own" is unknown. I might very well agree with the other expert. DONE. OVER. STUPID! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 It's only an irrelevant question when you twist the question from what I asked into one you wish to answer. Try answering the question I asked -- for someone who's calling me dumb you are coming off as borderline illiterate with your inability to comprehend what I'm asking. I'll try again: I did NOT ask about the expert, I did not say the patient was asking to vet the doctor. I asked what YOU WOULD DO as the doctor. Would you re-examine the patient and give your own diagnosis or simply rely upon and regurgitate the "expert" opinion of the previous doctors who examined the patient?? This is a very relevant question to your position.... It's only an irrelevant question when you twist the question from what I asked into one you wish to answer. Try answering the question I asked -- for someone who's calling me dumb you are coming off as borderline illiterate with your inability to comprehend what I'm asking. I'll try again: I did NOT ask about the expert, I did not say the patient was asking to vet the doctor. I asked what YOU WOULD DO as the doctor. Would you re-examine the patient and give your own diagnosis or simply rely upon and regurgitate the "expert" opinion of the previous doctors who examined the patient?? This is a very relevant question to your position.... Clearly, if the other doctor was an expert, he'd defer to that expert's authority, and refuse to give a diagnosis of his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 what about. "I would give my opinion" do you not understand? Yes, I would give an independent diagnosis, whether or not it would be "my own" is unknown. I might very well agree with the other expert. DONE. OVER. STUPID! So, in other words, you would not take the diagnosis of the other experts at face value because your exam might turn up different results... is that fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Clearly, if the other doctor was an expert, he'd defer to that expert's authority, and refuse to give a diagnosis of his own. so you have trouble with reading as well. might you AND RHINO BE THE SAME? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 what about. "I would give my opinion" do you not understand? Yes, I would give an independent diagnosis, whether or not it would be "my own" is unknown. I might very well agree with the other expert. DONE. OVER. STUPID! You're simply a mendacious, mealy-mouthed, two-faced hypocritical moron. Everyone else must defer to authority...except you. You're allowed to exercise independent thought. Even though you don't, and bombard us with appeals to authority that we must accept blindly, just like you do. You're a homeopath, aren't you? You are far too lacking in any sort of critical thinking skills to be a real doctor. so you have trouble with reading as well. might you AND RHINO BE THE SAME? No. But your claimed behavior is wildly inconsistent with your claims on the unquestionability of credentialed authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 so you have trouble with reading as well. might you AND RHINO BE THE SAME? I'm actually trying to have a conversation with you. I'm trying to understand the disconnect between your willingness to blindly accept an expert's opinion without doing any due diligence yourself in all matters historical but yet you are unwilling to accept an expert's opinion alone when it comes to diagnosing your patient. You do see that there is a disconnect there, do you not? One is clearly the better intellectual practice than the other. When I read something that doesn't add up, like your logic in this thread, I question it and the source. Sometimes that requires reading more sources, but in this case I can ask you direct questions about it since you're here and participating in the discussion. Getting defensive and twisting the conversation into something else doesn't get to the root of the issue, it obfuscates it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 I'm actually trying to have a conversation with you. I'm trying to understand the disconnect between your willingness to blindly accept an expert's opinion without doing any due diligence yourself in all matters historical but yet you are unwilling to accept an expert's opinion alone when it comes to diagnosing your patient. You do see that there is a disconnect there, do you not? One is clearly the better intellectual practice than the other. When I read something that doesn't add up, like your logic in this thread, I question it and the source. Sometimes that requires reading more sources, but in this case I can ask you direct questions about it since you're here and participating in the discussion. Getting defensive and twisting the conversation into something else doesn't get to the root of the issue, it obfuscates it. Unfortunately, all he can do is get defensive. He can't appeal to any authority and link to their opinion of what he would do. He is literally not capable of having the discussion you're trying to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Unfortunately, all he can do is get defensive. He can't appeal to any authority and link to their opinion of what he would do. He is literally not capable of having the discussion you're trying to have. Which is sad, really. His defensiveness turns the conversation combative, and makes him assume everyone is out to get him when some of us are actually trying to have a constructive back and forth. But you can't have a constructive back and forth when one party isn't willing to examine the merit of their own understanding of the issue(s). And bird, this isn't me saying you're dumb. This isn't me being rude. It's me being honest. I'm trying to understand your position, hoping to learn something new myself and maybe showing you something you hadn't considered. That's how conversations (even contentious ones) should work, wouldn't you agree? Yes, there are azzholes on PPP who live to hurl insults without substance, and sometimes even the azzholes make excellent points. Not everyone and not everything is black and white, especially here in the dungeon. But I have a pretty long record around here as being willing to engage with anyone who's willing to have an honest discussion -- especially with those people I disagree with -- and being able to find common ground. I'm also not above being wrong, but rather than deny I'm wrong or less informed on a topic than I realized I try to learn from my mistakes and take in the new information offered. I think that's far more enlightening than if I simply ignored the criticism of my positions or assumed everyone railing against me was either a "con" or being rude. Without that kind of openness, without being willing to subject your own opinions to scrutiny, there can be no forward progress on any of these issues and then PPP becomes the vapid echo chamber it's often stereotyped as being. There are exceptions of course, (I tried for months to be polite and patient with Gator until it became clear he had no interest in discussions, only spouting off, hurling insults, and more than likely is just a secondary handle for someone interested in trolling), but I'm more interested in substantive discussions than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) Which is sad, really. His defensiveness turns the conversation combative, and makes him assume everyone is out to get him when some of us are actually trying to have a constructive back and forth. But you can't have a constructive back and forth when one party isn't willing to examine the merit of their own understanding of the issue(s). And bird, this isn't me saying you're dumb. This isn't me being rude. It's me being honest. I'm trying to understand your position, hoping to learn something new myself and maybe showing you something you hadn't considered. That's how conversations (even contentious ones) should work, wouldn't you agree? Yes, there are azzholes on PPP who live to hurl insults without substance, and sometimes even the azzholes make excellent points. Not everyone and not everything is black and white, especially here in the dungeon. But I have a pretty long record around here as being willing to engage with anyone who's willing to have an honest discussion -- especially with those people I disagree with -- and being able to find common ground. I'm also not above being wrong, but rather than deny I'm wrong or less informed on a topic than I realized I try to learn from my mistakes and take in the new information offered. I think that's far more enlightening than if I simply ignored the criticism of my positions or assumed everyone railing against me was either a "con" or being rude. Without that kind of openness, without being willing to subject your own opinions to scrutiny, there can be no forward progress on any of these issues and then PPP becomes the vapid echo chamber it's often stereotyped as being. There are exceptions of course, (I tried for months to be polite and patient with Gator until it became clear he had no interest in discussions, only spouting off, hurling insults, and more than likely is just a secondary handle for someone interested in trolling), but I'm more interested in substantive discussions than anything else. PPP's heart grew 3 sizes that day. Edited January 12, 2016 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Which is sad, really. His defensiveness turns the conversation combative, and makes him assume everyone is out to get him when some of us are actually trying to have a constructive back and forth. But you can't have a constructive back and forth when one party isn't willing to examine the merit of their own understanding of the issue(s). And bird, this isn't me saying you're dumb. This isn't me being rude. It's me being honest. I'm trying to understand your position, hoping to learn something new myself and maybe showing you something you hadn't considered. That's how conversations (even contentious ones) should work, wouldn't you agree? Yes, there are azzholes on PPP who live to hurl insults without substance, and sometimes even the azzholes make excellent points. Not everyone and not everything is black and white, especially here in the dungeon. But I have a pretty long record around here as being willing to engage with anyone who's willing to have an honest discussion -- especially with those people I disagree with -- and being able to find common ground. I'm also not above being wrong, but rather than deny I'm wrong or less informed on a topic than I realized I try to learn from my mistakes and take in the new information offered. I think that's far more enlightening than if I simply ignored the criticism of my positions or assumed everyone railing against me was either a "con" or being rude. Without that kind of openness, without being willing to subject your own opinions to scrutiny, there can be no forward progress on any of these issues and then PPP becomes the vapid echo chamber it's often stereotyped as being. There are exceptions of course, (I tried for months to be polite and patient with Gator until it became clear he had no interest in discussions, only spouting off, hurling insults, and more than likely is just a secondary handle for someone interested in trolling), but I'm more interested in substantive discussions than anything else. Bird, I'm saying you're dumb. But my insults are substantive - they have an empirical basis. Frankly, Greg's far smarter than you. He can discuss honestly, and not merely belittle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 PPP's heart grew 3 sizes that day. Three times nothing is still nothing, you erudite and intelligent poster that we are fortunate to have here Frankly, Greg's far smarter than you. He can discuss honestly, and not merely belittle. From PPP, the flash apparently official: DC Tom has complimented somebody at 4:13 p.m. Central Standard Time, 5:13 Eastern Standard Time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Three times nothing is still nothing, you erudite and intelligent poster that we are fortunate to have here From PPP, the flash apparently official: DC Tom has complimented somebody at 4:13 p.m. Central Standard Time, 5:13 Eastern Standard Time "Smarter than birddog" is hardly a compliment. And he can discuss things honestly because he pretty much knows, by his own admission, that he's not too bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrymessenger Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Cold Harbour? And just for the record I think General Grant was a great man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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